lekh l'kha

And thank you for the important part of this also, alex73 lekh

It was my pleasure, Nebula. It's nice to know, though, that the Gentiles are also brought near through the blood of Christ "But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2: 13). God bless, Lekh

That's Too Cool! I Suspect We See It Again In This Story And he said, A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 15:11-24 With The Resentment And The Lack Of Rejoicing That Shows Up From Time To Time In Some Gentle Believers Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. Luke 15:25-32 And Maybe Not But God Is Faithful! Hallelujah Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING Love, Your Brother Joe Wonderful the way you expound that passage! It's so true. It makes my heart warm to my Father and yearn with His Son for the return and reconciliation of His estranged children. God bless the day! Lekh

"And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (Eph.2: 17-18). In pre-70 A.D Jewish thinking, the further away you were from the most holy place of the temple in Jerusalem, the further you were away from God. Only the High priest was allowed in the most holy place, and only once a year, and he had to enter with the blood of the sacrificed animal. The first court surrounding the most holy place was the holy place, and only the Jewish priests and Jewish males were allowed to enter into that court. Entry to the court surrounding the holy place was permitted for Jewish men and women - but no Gentiles. Entry to the outer court of the temple was permitted to all - Jew and Gentile. The Gentile was only permitted access to the court furthest away from the most holy place - they were "afar off", while the Jews were near. "And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many who are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." (Mat.19: 29-30). Take a look at the photo of that ornamental menorah in my profile picture: The menorah represents the church, and the middle branch represents Jesus in the midst of His churches - the most holy place. The oil (a picture of the Holy Spirit) is poured into the middle branch and drops to the bottom, filling the outer branches first - the branches that are "afar-off" from the center, then it fills the branches next to the outer branches, and last, it fills the inner branches next to the middle branch which supplies the oil: "For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins." (Rom 11:25-27) "... saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (Rev 7:3-4) The "seal of God" is the sealing of the Holy Spirit which is supplied by the middle branch - the outer branches are being sealed first, "... until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", and the inner branches are sealed last. "And everyone who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many who are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." (Mat.19: 29-30). The Lord Jesus Christ, like Joseph, is still closest to the inner branches next to Him, and just like Joseph yearned and mourned for his brethren to such an extent that the whole house of Pharaoh heard his loud sobs when that reconciliation finally came, so the whole world will know that even though he may love His Gentile bride deeply, yet Jesus is, after all, still a Jew who yearns for His Jewish family who are estranged from Him. lekh

Daniel was written so that all the children of God at all times after the prophecy was given would know what would happen at the end times. But, as I have already pointed out, the prophecies given to Daniel were for and to Isreal and the Jewish people, and there is no way that you can interpret them any other way. It states very clearly: "your people" (the Jews) and "your holy city" (Jerusalem). These prophecies are not for the church and could not be for the church since the church was an unknown concept at the time that none of the prophets knew about. Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him-- Ephesians 3:2-6 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. As I said, if you are going to take the Bible literally, please do so. Not ever prophecy in the Bible is meant for the church or is about the church. As for tying God's hands, exactly how am I doing that? I believe that scripture inplicitly teaches a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. You are free to disagree, and I will not demean you for that belief, but neither will I be demeaned by you for mine. Please display for me a scripture that says the "last trump" is the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation. You know about the scriptures used to teach a pre-trib rapture as well as I do. You won't get anywhere that way. Good point Cobalt. Though there is no scriptural proof I have heard that the seventh trump actually sounds first. The only reason I would even think about going down that road is because the first thru the fifth trumps sound like the wrath of God. The sixth trump speaks of the battle of Armageddon which means that if the seventh trump sounds last after the battle then Jesus doesn't return to recieve us or resurrect us until after the seven years are complete. As much As I have studied and researched I have never been able to make any sense out of the seventh trump prophecy. When the seventh trumpet sounded on the seventh day and the seventh time the Israelites marched around Jericho, the walls fell flat. It was the last trumpet. The deliverance of the redeemed occurred the same day that Pharaoh and his armies were judged. What about the judgment day of the beast and his armies? The Israelites were in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out - but the plagues never harmed them. The deliverance of the redeemed occurred on the same day that the flood began to come upon the world - the seventh of seven days (the flood-waters lifted the ark out). The sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev.11: 15) is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing resurrection from the dead and removal into heaven of the two witness; and (b) the verses describing God's judgment coming upon the world. "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16: 15). Jesus interjects those words slap-bang in the middle of talking about the sixth bowl of wrath - Armageddon. "Noises, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" are the final closing-verse descriptions of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath - except that "hail" is added to the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath. The judgment of Jericho came in the seventh of a cycle of seven. The flood came in the seventh of seven days. The Great White Throne judgment comes at the completion of a cycle of seven (thousand years), and whether it be seven thousand years since the fall of Adam or since the creation of the world, makes no difference. It was after the Israelites had been redeemed (after the day Pharaoh and his armies were judged) that the Israelites sang the song of Moses (on the other side of the Red sea, Exodus 15). Will it be before the beast and his armies are judged that the redeemed saints sing the song of Moses (Rev.15: 3-4)? The faithful remnant who refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar's image were thrown into the midst of the burning, fiery furnace, and Nebuchadnezzar was so enraged at them that he turned up the heat sevenfold (Daniel chapter 3). "He answered and said, Behold! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and there is no harm among them. And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods. Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace. He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire." (Dan.3: 25-26). "And they (the two witnesses who had been martyred and then rose from the dead three and a half days later) heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Rev.11: 12). What do all these Biblical facts teach us? Do they teach us that the rapture will come before the day the beast and his armies are judged? I don't know the answer, either. Many Christians know the answer - and their answers contradict one another Still, it's nice to deabate

I think we also have to view the Old Testament wars between Israel and other nations in the context of the Old testament times. When one reads the history of these times, we find that there were constant wars being fought between nations in their attempts to gain ascendancy over one another - and each of these wars were fought "in the name of" a particular god or the gods of those nations. Each victory was seen as a victory of the god/s of the victor nation. The whole world had that mindset. We read in the book of Genesis that God would not allow the Israelites to conquer Canaan immediately because the wickedness of its inhabitants "had not yet reached its fullness". The Israelites had to wait another 430 years. Non-believers often ask why God doesn't put a stop to the wickedness we see all around us, not realizing that God can only do this in two ways: To take away man's will and make him like the animals (living only by instinct), or to come upon individuals or nations in judgment (or upon the whole world as in the days of Noah and in the day Christ returns) in judgment. But God never does this until the wickedness of individuals and nations has reached its fullness. Once the cup of wickedness is full to the brim and running over, then God will no longer afford any more time for individuals or nations to repent. So God first gives "all the time in the world" because "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2Pet.3) But if God is to judge a nation, He can either use nature (by no longer preventing natural catastrophes from occurring), or He can use another nation. In the case of individuals, He may use other individuals. God used nature (the red sea) to judge Pharaoh and his armies only after He had given Pharaoh and the Egyptians enough time to repent. But this certainly does not mean that if someone is murdered or if a woman is raped etc, the individual is being judged by God through the use another individual, and it doesn't necessarily mean that if a nation is attacked by another nation, the nation is being judged by God through the use of that other nation. Individuals and nations and leaders of nations are quite capable of doing evil things without being used by God to bring judgment on their victims. It also does not mean that God approves of evil (such as a nation attacking another nation without cause). It simply means that if the time has come for a nation to be judged, God will withdraw His protection of that nation from the hand of its enemies, as in the case of the evil Babylonian king's unwarranted invasion of Judah and destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. Simply put, the wickedness of the inhabitants of Canaan had reached its fullness when God ordered the Israelites to invade it. The inhabitants of Canaan were beyond redemption by the time that God sent the Israelites in. God is sovereign over the world, and He decides which nations inhabit which lands, and for how long. And God is Holy and therefore 100% just, and therefore cannot hold out His hand in grace and mercy over individuals or nations forever even though He desires to, since He "does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance".

Thanks, shiloh357. I don't know if I'll go back there. I feel drained right now. I was debating three of them at the same time in the same thread. That would explain why not only the world, but also a big part of the Church hates the true gospel of the Kingdom (Mat.24: 14, 9). I've noticed that it's not the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ that's hated so much - even unbelievers don't really mind the message that someone died for their sins, regardless of the fact that they don't believe it. But unbelievers (as well as a big part of the Church) seem to hate the true gospel of the Kingdom - because it means that the Savior who died for their sins will be ruling them (or their children) from His throne in Jerusalem, and Israel will become exalted among the nations by virtue of its King.

Happy birthday, Dave and thank you for sharing with us the inspiration you've been receiving from Jesus

Thank you, Yod. And thank you also, Shiloh 357 I got myself into a Forum very recently which I now realize is owned/administered/moderated by people who are both Preterist and amillenialist. They would not hear my arguments, and the administrator who was debating me would not even answer me though I repeatedly asked him who "they", "their", "them" and "you", "your" etc refers to in Rom.11: 25-32. I was thinking of taking your excerpt from your commentary above (with your permission) to that Forum, Shiloh. But I think I should just leave it. I realize these people, though wonderful Christians in every other respect (by the way in which the interact with one another and others in the Forum), are just plain and simply blinded by their theology, which is Replacement Theology. They also will not have ANY future interpretation of the Olivet Discourse and most (almost all) of the book of Revelation - it all happened in the 1st century when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, according to them. I tried to show how the Olivet Discourse relates to both that time (the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple) AND the time of the return of the Lord (since the disciples asked for "the sign" for both periods), but they just refuse to even consider ANY of the scriptures that refute what they say. So I think I must just leave it alone and not go back to that Forum again. It's too painful, and I realize even if I try and "debate" the issue any further it simply won't produce any fruit. It's a relief to be back "home" (so to speak ) Lekh

the faithful remnant of Israel and those nations (gentiles) joined to them... next? So why is it that so many Christians say, "NO"?

"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat 22:32) The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Himself always referred to the family physically descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob "My people", and they are frequently referred to as "His people" bu prophets and apostles alike: "And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;" (Exo 3:7) "And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." (Exo 5:1) Others who were not physically descended from them were joined to them through conversion to faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and through circumcision. "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;" (Luk 1:68-69) "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Rom 11:1-5) A remnant of "His people" "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Gentiles), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them (among the remnant of "His people" who were not broken off), and with them (with the remnant of "His people") partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Rom 11:17) "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." (Rom 11:18) "And they ("His people" who were broken off) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" (Rom 11:23-24) The believing Gentiles become grafted in among "His people" - the people of "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" - and "the Israel of God" + the Gentiles who become grafted in, make up "the Church", which is the New Testament Temple. But much of the church says "NO". "The Israel of God is "the Church". "The Israel of God" (the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob) is no longer the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, because in Christ there is neither Jew not Gentile, but ONE "NEW MAN". Ruth considered it a privilege to be joined to "His people" and become a Jewish woman. But today many of we Gentiles who become grafted in among the remnant of "His people" talk and act as though it's a privilege to the remnant of "His people" "to become part of the Church" and be added to "His people" "among us"!. We've turned the whole thing upside down! And then many of us still have the chutzpah to tell "His people" that God's promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and to the prophets) no longer apply to "His people" "because the Church is now the Israel of God" This is not only an insult to "His people", but it's ultimately and insult to God, since it brings God's Word to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and the prophets) into question. "... Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they.." (the Gentiles) "... said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. .. ... And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes... ... For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. " (Eze 36:16-28) These a New Covenant promises, and with the exception of the remnant mentioned by Paul in Rom.11: 1-5 (which has been present in each generation since then), the majority of "His people" have never yet been brought into the New Covenant. This prophecy was NOT fulfilled by the restoration of Israel from exile in Babylon, although it was written during that exile - the New Covenant was only to be established by Jesus hundreds of years later!! And these promises in the above Ezekiel prophecy (like so many other promises in the writings of the prophets) CONFIRM the eternal nature and LITERAL meaning of God's promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which He covenanted in an oath to fulfill Himself. But not before the gospel would be preached to the Gentiles in the heathen nations in all the world as a witness to all nations: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" (Rom 11:25-33) SO WHO/WHAT IS "the Israel of God"?

This is a segment from my commentary on Revelation. The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. The sixth angel symbolic judgment is not on the Euphrates river, but on what it symbolizes. It is the life source of the Middle East. The angel judgment is on the life source of the Ottoman Empire, the Caliphate. As the Empire was being conquered by the Christian Powers of Europe, the Turks had a decision to make, as mentioned before they over threw the Caliphate and elected a western style government. One that was on terms with Europe and one that could modernize and hope that never again will a Muslim country like Turkey be defeated by a Christian Power. The kings from the east, represent a new era of rulers. The north is a sign of judgment, east is a sign of redemption. Turkey's Ottoman Empire was destroyed but it was allowed to live on again under a new era. God brought about his judgment and the very people he judged saw the error of their ways and removed once and for all the Tyrant of the Caliphate and the Empire, that brought it such great power and utter ruin. That is till the thousand years are up and the Great Red Dragon will cause Turkey to become a power once again and it will be judged more harshly than before. This time Christ will come down and deal with it, instead of the surrogate English Empire. And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. The Traditional argument is that the Dragon is Satan, a spiritual being who chief's purpose is to oppose God. The argument I have been laying out says that the Dragon is not Satan (a personal entity) but the Empirical system of eight empires. The wording alone denotes that the Dragon is not Satan (personal entity) how can Satan be possessed by one of this own demons? This phrase alone disproves that Satan (personal entity) is involved at all with the Beast and False Prophet and proves that Satan (The Dragon) is an adjective of the Empirical system. The frogs or demons gather the world to war. The war to defeat the Ottoman Empire was World War One, a war that made many nations choose sides. The Allies led by Britain and America and the Central Powers led by Germany and the Ottoman Empire. The start of the war clearly belongs on the Ottoman Empire, by this time the system is so corrupted and weak, it was unable to put down several revolts in the European theater. Which would later cause unrest in other parts of the empire, predominantly supported by England, who encouraged the Arabs to revolt against their Turkish Masters and allowing themselves to be subjected to Christian rule instead of the more preferred rule of Islam. The British Empire is the surrogate power of Christ, God is using them in order to bring out the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, which would bring about the nation of Israel. By fighting the British Empire they were in essence fighting God himself. ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.") This is a parenthetical statement, the allusion is to the fifth church of Sardis. Rev 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. Rev 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. I have argued that the church of Sardis is the Catholic/Orthodox Church and that the Church of Thyatira is the church that operated within the Ottoman Empire. I still maintain that position, but the question is what does this mean? If my theory is right, then this is a warning to the present church, that Christ will come afterwards (his second coming). But the context shows that might not be the case, but that this is indeed in reference to something else entirely. That this is talking about the the saints that were killed under the Beast and False Prophet and that Christ will soon resurrect them from the dead. And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon. In September 19, 1918 General Allenby fought the Ottoman Empire in Megiddo or Har-Magedon. Allenby just captured the city of Jerusalem in 1917, in order to finish off the Turks this battle needed to be fought. Allenby received two Indian Infantry Divisions to bring his force back up to full strength. Allenby had control of Indian, British, Australian and presumably New Zealand troops. Using what he had, he was able to deceive the Turks and make his advance into the region and capture several important towns, such as Damascus, the Jezreel Valley, Haifa, Nazareth, by the end of the campaign the Turks surrendered 75,000 troops and on October 31, 1918 Turkey surrendered fully. General Allenby titled himself: the First Viscount Allenby of Megiddo. Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done." After the battle of Megiddo Turkey capitulated, the judgment of the Ottoman Empire is over. The

Gone off-topic from the OP. That's o.k. I don't mind Just hope that no-one will take offense if I don't want to debate this new subject more than what I already said about it in my previous post.

Where does the Bible say a third temple must be build? (1Pet 2:5 [KJV]) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. We could make a good case that we are the third temple but that would change a lot of the popular "left behind" eschatology. Interestingly, using the Strong's Greek Dictionary, one finds that UNTIL the veil of the temple was torn in two, the Greek New Testament uses two words for the Jerusalem temple: hieron and naos. hieron is used for the temple building with its outer courts. naos is used in Christ's reference to His body as the temple, and for the holy place and most holy place of the Jerusalem temple. But from then onward (from Acts onward), the Jerusalem temple is called hieron only, and references to our bodies and the church as the temple use the word naos only. The only two exceptions are the 2 verses in Acts which refer to the Jews accusation that Paul had defiled "this holy place" - here the Greek uses the words hagios topos ("holy place"), but the Greek still does not use the word naos in those verses in Acts, even though the word naos is used in reference to the holy place of the Jerusalem temple right up until the tearing of the veil of the temple ( naos ). From Acts onward, naos is only used in reference to our bodies and the church as the temple of God. Except (if it is indeed an exception): 2Thes.2: 4 uses the word naos in reference to the temple: "who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple ( naos ) of God, setting himself forth, that he is God." (2Th 2:4) Revelation uses the word naos in reference to the heavenly temple every single time the temple is mentioned in the Revelation - the only exception (if it is indeed an exception) being: "And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it." (Rev 11:1) There is a difference between believing something and believing in the possibility of something. Personally I believe that the possibility is high that men will build another temple in Jerusalem - but such a temple (which would reintroduce Old Testament sacrifices for sins) will be an abomination to God: "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. Let him on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house; nor let him in the field turn back to take his clothes. And woe to those who are with child, and to those who give suck in those days! But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day; for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ! Or, There! Do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect. Behold, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert! Do not go out. Behold, He is in the secret rooms! Do not believe it. For as the lightning comes out of the east and shines even to the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered. And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near. So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors. Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled." (Mat 24:15-34)

I think you're wise. Christians are no different from non-Christians in that once they become convinced of a particular interpretation of prophecy, they know it all and can even become quite arrogant in their "knowledge". Christianity today is full of self-appointed "authorities" about what the Bible teaches about these matters - and man, do these "authorities" contradict one another and fight and argue when they disagree about what the Bible teaches about these things. They hate their self-appointed "authority" to be challenged in any way, and then they forget about true Christ-like humility.

Best pieces of advice ever given: "Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and depart from evil." (Pro 3:7) "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all practicing them have good understanding; His praise stands forever." (Psa 111:10) "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Pro 1:7) But what happens? "instead they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD. They would have none of my counsel; they despised all my correction," (Pro 1:29-30) V, The reason why Christians "bash" others who claim to be Christians with verses from the Bible when you contradict what the scriptures teach us, is because we believe the scriptures to be inspired by God Himself, and we accept them as our authority. To say "I am a Christian" but I don't accept the authority of every single part of the scriptures" (like the prophecy portions, or any other portion) is an oxymoron. Jesus is the Living Word, and the Bible is the record of God's revelation to mankind. I bleieve that 100%, and I'm proud to say it. What's wrong with me or any other Christian quoting scripture to let you know why we disagree with something you say?

Your free will applies to whether or not you listen to what is instilled in your heart by the Holy Spirit and choose that over what your flesh or circumstances or others are telling you. Under the law it was a similar arrangement, but you could find a rabbi to interpret the law for you when it was complicated. That is the appeal of the law over the Spirit. People don't like to rely on the Spirit, they don' know if they are hearing Him, they don't spend time getting to know His voice, and they don't like being responsible. Mostly living by the Spirit requires a higher level of faith. The benefit of living by the Spirit is you get the right information all the time and you get to move from glory to glory. But Relying on God is not standard in the modern era. That is why we have so many avenues and strategies to avoid living by faith. Faith in not needing faith I call it. Right!

As a contractor I have had many times where the guys working for me couldn't accomplish the task I required because of their understanding or needing the tools I owned that they didn't. Nevertheless, with my supervision and provisions they accomplished the tasks required and I paid them for what they did. Plus, I have always had the policy that those who insisted on doing it their way were always directed to the highway. Now . . .if it is only "the fruit of the vine" then why the judgment of "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away . . . is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned?" The issue is one of abiding and continuing in the words of Christ. John 15:7 If ye abide <meno> in Me, and My words abide<meno> in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 9 As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you: continue<meno> ye in My love. 10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide<meno> in my love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide<meno> in His love. <meno> a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): --abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own. But the tools you provided them remained your tools and not theirs. The tools they might have had might have been very faulty and couldn't have got the job done. Similarly, if we do not die to our righteousness (our own tools) and submit to the righteousness and Lordship of the One who is and always will be "the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS", we will not understand what it means to walk in the Spirit of Christ. We do not do ANY "works of righteousness" to abide in the vine. We abide in the vine through 1 Reading and studying the Word 2 Prayer 3 Fellowship 4 Worship 5 Witness: "Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." (Rom 10:9) Not necessarily in that order, but altogether, the above 5 points is how we abide in the vine. Abiding in the vine has nothing to do with works of righteousness - but if we do not abide in the vine, we will not produce the fruit of the vine because we will be cast away and become withered.

Do you agree that the word Lucifer derived from Latin? The scripture, written in Hebrew, said ... Isaiah 14:12 (New American Standard Bible) How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! When you do look up הילל; heylel; H1966; and dig beyond the simplicity of the internet, you will find it saying that the Latin Vulgate's translation meant shining star. Yes, a star of the morning has to be shining, and the very simplistic meaning has brought forth "morning star", but that is not the true meaning. Again, one can not call Jesus the Morning Star and "Lucifer" the Morning Star. I agree with you 100% Source regarding the Latin names "Lucifer" and "Phospherous", referring to the morning star and the evening star, respectively: Microsft's Encarta Encyclopedia, 2004 edition. The encyclopedia states that in Isaiah the reference to the morning star falling after attempting to rise above the stars of God is satyrical It made sense to me. God does not equate "Lucifer" with Jesus - the very idea is blasphemous and repugnant to me. But through the prophet Isaiah, the king of Babylon is sarcastically, satyrically referred to as the morning star because he exalted himself and was brought low - God used the very Babylonian mythologcial belief in the god they had attached to the morning star to announce the Babylonian king's judgment.

God bless you too

Our submission = our obedience . . . but our obedience has nothing to do with us . . . . So we're just like gloves, or puppets. No, because we have a will. But the Bible teaches that there is only ONE righteous: Jesus Christ the Righteous One. "But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith," (Gal 5:22) It is not our fruit. So it is not us loving. It is not our joy. It is not our peace. It is not we who are long suffering. It is not us extending goodness, kindness and mercy. It is not our faith. But we do have free will . . . but we just don't obey, rather we submit. "I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (Joh 15:5) It's not the fruit of the branches - it's the fruit of the vine: "For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do. But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me. I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." (Rom 7:19-25)

Good story. Thanks!

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous. Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous. The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior. Same thing; just different words. You said what I was thinking in different terms. I agree, but no one is arguing that it is. Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making. Amen, well said Shiloh. Err... BlindSeeker gave Shiloh a feather to put in his cap. Does anyone have a feather for BlindSeeker? Cute. Now pat yourself on the back and go put one in your own little cap. I would, but you guys seem to have hidden the feather-box in here somewhere. I guess I'll have to settle for patting myself on the back... I hope you realize that I'm just kidding with you, BlindSeeker