lekh l'kha

That's the point - if Israel strikes, Israel stands completely alone in the world, with the consequences also - and if international condemnation of Israel blocking the flotilla a few months ago was hysterical, it's going to be like a tea party with upper class English gentlemen compared with what the "international community" will do if Israel strikes.

Good work, Bible2 : Wouldn't the Feast of Tabernacles be more a type of the coming Millennium (Zechariah 14:16) than a type of the Rapture? Isn't Ezekiel 37:22-24 referring to what will happen during the coming Millennium, which Millennium will be followed by the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel chapters 38-39, as shown in Revelation 20:7-9? Amen (James 1:22, 1 John 1:9). And let us also prepare ourselves to go through the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, for Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Jesus can't return and gather together the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31). When Jesus returns, he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:27). Then those in the church will be resurrected or changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Then the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to have a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against, and completely defeats, all the armies of the unsaved world, who will all have gathered against him (Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 16:14-16). Then the resurrected and changed church, including those in the church who were beheaded by the Antichrist (the beast), will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years are over, the devil will be released from the bottomless pit and by deception bring about the Gog/Magog event and be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). At least seven years after the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:9), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). After the great white throne judgment, God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). Then God the Father will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the new earth with Jesus and the church in New Jerusalem forever (Revelation 21:3, Revelation 22:3-5). In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be tormented forever in fire and brimstone with the devil and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:24).

No prob, I understand that like me, you have "x" amount of time, and no more

Okay. Sorry, I misunderstood you. I agree with most of what your first post said. What I'd like to know is, when the 10 kings go to war against the harlot, are they not actually destroying the throne of the beast in the process?: "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." (Rev 17:15) "And the fifth angel poured out his vial (bowl of wrath) upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain," (Rev 16:10) Amazingly, the 5th trumpet says: "And they (the destroying locusts) had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." (Rev 9:11) It begins: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit." (Rev 9:1-2) These locusts are permitted to harm only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (9:4). And another amazing thing is that in-between the gospel going out to every nation, tribe and tongue accompanied with a command to worship God (whose image is Christ), and a warning not to worship the beast or his image, there's a verse that says, "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Rev 14:8) It falls in between these verses: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters... ... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:6-7, 9-10) In these verses we read that the gospel is going out into all the world accompanied with a command to worship God, and this is contrasted with a warning not to worship the beast and his image, and the reason for this is because "the hour of His (God's) judgment has come", and in-between those verses we are told, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." I don't know how much meaning there is in that, if any - but if "Babylon the Great" refers to the false religions of the world and "she" has fallen, then it makes sense that this would pave the way for the gospel "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people". But it's the 10 kings who reign for one hour with the beast (and who give their power and authority to the beast) who destroy the harlot who is called "Babylon the great". All I know is that we don't have enough info yet in order to correctly identify either the beast that rises from the bottomless pit or the harlot it carries.

The ten horns do . . . Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. The EU will be the source behind her/our destruction. Remember who started the last 2 world wars? More like nuclear-armed Middle Eastern nations such as Iran and Pakistan, in alliance with Syria and Turkey, waging a nuclear war against both the E.U and the U.S. The ten horns rule with the beast for "one hour" (17:12), and Babylon the Great's destruction comes in "one hour" (18:19). The ten kings "make war against the woman, eat her flesh and burn her with fire". She will be overcome with violence: "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Rev 18:21) It's a war against religion, because "Babylon the Great" represents the false religious systems of the world. It could also be the destruction of the harlot Christian church by the godless 10 kings who will be ruling with the beast. It's the same 10 kings who go to war against the Lamb: "These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Rev 17:14). I really don't see how the U.S.A, whose economic might and superpower status is waxing (within the next 10 years and probably a lot less than that the world will not be using the U.S dollar as the international currency), qualifies as "the beast". One terrorist attack can destroy the U.S economy in one day. But the U.S economy is already "destroyed" and it's only even more debt that's keeping it going. In short, the balance of power in the world is shifting very fast out of favor for the U.S. At this stage there's just far too much speculation involved with trying to identify the beast of Rev.13. I also disagree that the 8th kingdom of chapter 17 which "rises out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition" is not the same as the one rising from the sea in chapter 13 - the ten horns link the two together. And what is the bottomless pit that the beast rises out of? "Global village", "many languages, one voice" (Babylon). An international government - but controlled by the West/Western nations? I don't think so. The West is in more trouble than most of its citizens people know or realize.

Which nation wielded greater economic power in all of Africa and Australasia 1948-1990? Britain (not the U.S). Which nation wields the greatest economic power and dominion in all Africa today? China (not the U.S). China owns Africa today (not the U.S or Britain). I haven't said this, because it's a harsh reality and not nice to remind people about. But the U.S has sailed its ship into an iceberg called "completely out of control debt", and as a result the U.S economy has a massive hole which has been plugged with a very, very thin substance called "completely out of control debt". No country can afford "imperialist" wars under those circumstances. America's on it's way out, not on it's way in. And the future of the E.U doesn't seem much rosier. What do the Western economies need the most to even have the wheel turn in the first place? Oil. Who has most of the world's oil reserves? Who holds the world to ransom by setting oil prices at unbelievably high levels? OPEC. Who controls OPEC? In any case, the U.S was NEVER an "imperialist" nation. Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq were ALL knee-jerk reaction wars, and U.S troops are going to be withdrawn from Iraq within the next couple of years. You're not a "beast", period. Right now you're a bleeding nation, your economy is a dying horse busy giving its last kicks. That's harsh, I know. But Christians need to wake up and start praying for one another and start getting ready to help one another because there are desperate times ahead. America's not in line to become the beast of Rev 13 - maybe if it completely loses its sovereignty to the beast it will be part of the beast, but not the beast. The headquarters of the beast is not Washington D.C or New York City. It's more like somewhere around Babylon or Persia, the people who OWN the oil that keeps the wheels of the fragile Western economies turning in the first place, the people who HATE the U.S, the people who HATE Israel, the people who HATE "the Anglo-Saxon race", the people who HATE the Saturday people and the Sunday people.

Fiji. Because why should the Fijians be left out of Bible prophecy? Seriously though, Much as I know that Americans don't like being left out in the cold with regard to the identity of the 7th and 8th kingdoms (that much has become quite obvious), I think that the U.S.A is simply in the wrong geographical region, because Rev 13's beast from the sea is specifically described as being "like a lion, leopard and bear" - the descriptions of former Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires in Daniel 7. The Ottoman-Turk Empire incorporated all these territories AND the entire Eastern part of the former Roman Empire, and the Ottoman-Turk Empire's remaining Eastern territories fell into the hands of the British Empire at the end of WWI. It was then that Lord Balfour, Britain's foreign secretary, signed a document promising "Palestine" to the Jews as their homeland, a promise which later British governments reneged on until 1948, and they reneged because of Islamic Arab protest and rioting against the idea of a Jewish state in "Arab territory". And of course, the West has always needed Arab oil. Until 2010 Turkey (an Islamic state), has, however, been an ally of Israel. But Now we see a sudden and complete about-turn on the part of Turkey in its policy toward Israel, even threatening to go to war against Israel if Israel intercepts another flotilla from Turkey, and we also see a snuggling up together of Iran, Syria, Turkey and Lebanon in a determined drive top wipe Israel off the map of the Middle East. We may be seeing the beginning stages of a "beast that had a mortal wound to its head" (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire by Allied forces in WWI) and a gradual re-birth of the same former Empire, bent on annihilating "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". We have choices about the identity of the 7th and 8th empires, all equally valid: A. 7th Empire: 1. The Holy Roman Empire, or 2. The Ottoman-Turk Empire, or 3. The British Empire. The 7th empire, John was told, would continue "a short time". The first two empires above each remained for 1000 years, only the British Empire remained "a short time". B. The 8th Empire: 1. A resurrected Roman Empire (the E.U) 2. A resurrected Ottoman-Turk Empire (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, "Palestine" and who knows maybe even Jordan will join them for fear of being conquered. 3. The United States (just mentioning the U.S so Americans don't feel left out in the cold, lols). 4. Fiji. 5. Zimbabwe. 6. India. 7. kenya. 8. Tanzania. 9. Zambia. 10. Jamaica... (I'm naming all the other former British colonies, because we can't leave them out if we're NOT going to leave the U.S.A out, lols) Oh yes, sorry Canada: 11. Canada. 12. Australia. 13. New Zealand (they better first learn how to keep a rugby world cup). So, bottom line (in my opinion), any "identification" of the 7th and 8th empires is speculative (at the moment).

THE WOMAN - I believe she represents the false religious systems that have been here since the Nimrod and the tower of Babel. It is demonic in origin, but often comes as an angel of light to try and deceive to who would be seeking truth and righteousness. Note, in Rev 13:1 that the beast rising out of the sea does not have the women riding it. This unholy union of the beast and the union happens prior to their destruction, and because of their union, they are thereafter referred to as the same. Not unlike "and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." THE BEAST THAT CARRIETH HER - This is actually the final manifestation of the beast that has existed since the birth of the Nation of Israel. It is linked to Israel, for as Israel was, and then was not because Rome destroyed it, yet Israel is. The same is said therefore of the beast. "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." THE SEVEN HEADS - Are the historical progression of nations which have had a direct influence and effect upon the Israelites. The angel said 5 were fallen, many in Israel's then past. They are: 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Medes/Persia 5. Greece Daniel mentions the last three in his visions, including the next, which is Rome. Therefore Rome is head #6. Daniel is silent about Egypt and Assyria two because they were already history - before the of his time of ministry. Agreed (up to that point). I don't know the identity of the 7th and 8th kingdoms. Could also be the Ottoman-Turk Empire and a "resurrected" Ottoman-Turk Empire, which covered the same territories of empires 3, 4 and 5 above and is Islamic, although the Ottoman-Turk Empire continued for a long time and not a short time. But "the woman" (Gen.3:15, Rev.12: 1) in Hebrew is "ishah" and in ancient Chaldean (Babylonian) "the woman" is ishtar. Ishtar was also worshipped as the great Babylonian mother-goddess, and she is indeed the mother of harlots and of the (religious) abominations of the earth. The contents of the cup we drink represents the only Way to God. The contents of the cup in the hand of Babylon the Great is "full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication" (17:4). She is also "a prison of every unclean spirit, and a cage of every unclean bird which has been hated" (18:2). We have to remember that the Revelation is a very ancient book, and the symbolism comes from way back - even further back than 2,000 years ago when the Revelation was written. Babylon the great was in a marriage with the political authorities of the world, "carried by the beast". Not a mono-theocracy but a poly-theocracy. The emperors were normally regarded as the incarnation of the king of the gods/father of the gods. Ishtar was worshipped all over the known world under different names. Ashtarte, Ashta Easter, etc are all variations of the name of the ancient Babylonian mother-goddess.

I tend to disagree, [i think] this prophecy is past. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

Joel 2:28-32 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. "Afterward" - Hebrew "achar" H310 אחר 'achar akh-ar' From H309; properly the hind part; generally used as an adverb or conjugation, after (in various senses): - after (that, -ward), again, at, away from, back (from, -side), behind, beside, by, follow (after, -ing), forasmuch, from, hereafter, hinder end, + out (over) live, + persecute, posterity, pursuing, remnant, seeing, since, thence [-forth], when, with. The Hebrew word shaba is the root-word for shabat (sabbath) and also seven, seventh, seven-fold etc, and shaba means to be complete: H7650 שׁבע shâba‛ shaw-bah' A primitive root; properly to be complete, but used only as a denominative from H7651; to seven oneself, that is, swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times): - adjure, charge (by an oath, with an oath), feed to the full [by mistake for H7646], take an oath, X straitly, (cause to, make to) swear. The seventh (sabbath) day completes the cycle, and the 8th day is the beginning of a new cycle. The seventh year completes the cycle, and the 8th year is the beginning of a new cycle. Seven x seven sabbath years (49 years) completes the cycle, and the 50th year (the year of Jubilee) marks the beginning of a new cycle. Seven x seven days following the first sabbath after Passover completes the cycle, and the 50th day (the Day of Pentecost) marks the beginning of a new cycle. So was the day of Pentecost "the last days", or the beginning of a new cycle? Joel 2:28-32 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Acts 2:15-21 For these are not drunk as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: "And it shall be in the last (Greek: eschatos) days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. And in those days I will pour out My Spirit upon My slaves and My slave women, and they shall prophesy. And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miracles on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious Day of the Lord. And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." G2078 ἔσχατος eschatos es'-khat-os A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost. Eschatos: from whence we get the word "eschatology". In Acts, Peter is quoting Joel, but Joel does not say God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh in the last days, Joel says it will follow (Hebrew: achar) the last days that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh. Acts was written by Luke. Luke uses the Greek work eschatos to translate the Hebrew word achar. Achar means following after. Does eschatos mean the same thing? The early church believed they were living in the last days (Heb.1:2 - the same word "eschatos" is used): "... has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, " (Heb 1:2) Pentecost follows the completion of a cycle (seven x seven days following the first sabbath after Passover) and marks the beginning of a new cycle. Is the Spirit of God to be poured out on all flesh in the last days, or in the days following the last days?

Abraham did not know that God was going to provide a substitute: "By faith Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. And he who had received the promises offered up his only-begotten son, of whom it was said that in Isaac your Seed shall be called, concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from where he even received him, in a figure." (Heb 11:17-19) Abraham had no idea that there would be a substitute which would follow Abraham's faith which produced his obedience: "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked. And, behold, a ram behind him was entangled in a thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son." (Gen 22:13). The Hebrew word for "behind" is "achar". It means both behind and following/following after. It's found all over scripture, and also in various prophetic verses, such as these: "And after (Hebrew achar - behind or following) sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war." (Dan 9:26) "And it shall come to pass afterward (Hebrew achar, behind or following after), that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" (Joe 2:28) The sacrifice both preceded and followed Abraham's faith: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (Joh 8:58). "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Gen 3:15) "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." (Gal 3:11). So if your faith produces obedience so that like Abraham, you follow God wherever He leads you, then "goodness and mercy shall follow you all the days of your life".

Very interesting, from Islam2Christ. I agree with Nebula that nothing is accidental in the Bible. I don't think it's merely incidental to the account, either. Will be watching to see if anyone has the answer. Abraham lifted his eyes also reminds me of "Look up, for your salvation draws near". The Ram being behind him is kind of like Jesus saying to us "Follow me, I'm right behind you!". And I think there might be a meaning in that, too.

Oh now I got it

I wish I knew what you were talking about. I've searched and searched but I still don't see no "status bar" anywhere

What... you're saying we Christians must act/react and act in the same way that Muslims act/react just because we have the freedom to do so? CNN: 20Sept, 2010. The international fallout of the public burning of the Qur'an by Christians in the U.S on Sept 11 it seems, is far from over. Over ten churches in Nigeria were attacked and set alight yesterday by Muslim mobs during a national prayer-rally in Nigeria's predominantly Muslim North. The churches were surrounded by people with machetes and knives chanting "death to the blasphemers" and all who tried to escape were butchered. Meanwhile the Pope has strongly criticised Evangelical Christianity and condemned the burning of the Qur'an, saying that those who deliberately and knowingly provoke others to wrath in the name of Christ do not, and never have known Christ. Islamic interest groups in the U.S along with many other liberal groups have stepped up their campaign to have a moratorium on what exactly freedom of expression and freedom of religion means in the U.S.A. The Rabbinic Council and Jewish Board of Deputies has also come out in condemnation of the burning of the Qur'an, citing a recent upsurge in anti-Israeli and antisemitic sentiment because many Muslims, they say, have linked the burning of the Qur'an by Christians to Christian-Zionist sentiments in the Evangelical churches.... 100 U.N member states are set to meet tomorrow in the U.N Headquarters in New York in order to hold discussions on the duty of states with regard to peaceful co-existence between religious groups.... Okay, I'm not a journalist, but yes, there is likely to be "consequences". And the end result will be LESS freedom for the gospel to go out into the world, not more freedom. But aside from that, that just isn't what our Lord would have us do, IMO. If He never taught His apostles to tear down pagan altars and burn pagan books THEN, He's not teaching His disciples to do it NOW.

That's a good point, lekh. I hadn't thought of that but then....that's the reason I posted this topic. To read valid opinions and different viewpoints than my own on this subject. We don't grow if we're stuck in our own heads. That's okay, MG. Though I really understand and empathise with the sentiments that have produced this "burn a Qur'an day", I don't think it's even right and good to do it - let alone "wise". The gospel wasn't spread throughout the world to our pagan forefathers in the Roman Empire by publically burning our forefathers Agnostic Greek and Roman philosophy books or by tearing down their altars and idols - it spread because of the power behind the message of truth and the faithfulness and love of those who spread it. It was the later Roman Catholic government in Rome which oversaw the tearing down of pagan altars and the destruction of gnostic literature. The backlash against Christianity and ALL Christians even in a post-Christian U.S.A will be absolutely massive. Expect laws to be passed against the freedom of Christians in the U.S if this church is allowed by Christians to go ahead with their plans. Maybe it's just the excuse that many in the Liberal Fraternity in the U.S are waiting for in order to force the Whitehouse to pass certain anti-Christian laws. I really hope that there is such a strong public Christian protest against this planned protest that the protest doesn't go ahead, because if it does, I believe there will be consequences - far-reaching consequences - in the U.S and against defenceless Christian communities all over the world. Lekh.

Actually the best way to burn a Qur'an a day is to save one Muslim a day. One saved Muslim = 1 useless Qur'an.

You're really afraid of them aren't you? They will not prevail; unless they repent God will destroy them....all of them. I'm afraid of all the surprise revenge attacks against defenceless Christian communities in India and Nigeria and Sudan and Malaysia and Pakistan and Somalia and Ethiopia and ..... (because it WILL happen as a result of the burning of the Qur'an by a Christian church in the U.S.A who have the U.S police to rely on for their protection). But actually what I really would like is to be able to write all my sins in books and send it to this Dove church (or whatever it's called) and ask them to burn them. But I believe that my sins were written in a book and nailed to a Man who in turn was nailed to wood. Much as I'd like to do unto others as others would (and do) unto me and my Savior, I don't think it would serve any good purpose, and my Savior said I should do unto others NOT what they would do unto me, but what I would HAVE THEM do unto me.

I never answered this, Shiloh357, because I lost my serious disposition when you put temptation in my way to pull your leg: Who's going to arrest me if I do - the C.I.A? Just pulling your leg

It's also true that God established the symbolism that is found in the Bible, and the Revelation is full of symbolism - symbolism which remains 100% consistent with the symbolism found in the rest of the Bible - because that's one of those marvels about the Word of God - it always remains 100% consistent with the symbolism originally established, for example, Israel was always symbolized in one of three ways: a vine, a fig tree and/or an olive tree. Sometimes only one symbol is used in a verse in reference to Israel. Sometimes two symbols are used in the same verse in reference to Israel, and sometimes all three are mentioned in one and the same prophetic passage: "Though the fig tree shall not blossom, and fruit is not on the vines; the labor of the olive fails, and the fields yield no food. The flock is cut off from the fold, and no herd is in the stalls; yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation." (Hab 3:17-18) "The trees went forth to anoint a king over them. And they said to the olive tree, Reign over us. But the olive tree said to them, Should I leave my fatness with which they honor God and man by me, and go to be promoted over the trees? And the trees said to the fig tree, You come and reign over us. But the fig tree said to them, Should I forsake my sweetness and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then the trees said to the vine, You come and reign over us. And the vine said to them, Should I leave my wine, which cheers God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then all the trees said to the bramble-bush, You come and reign over us. And the bramble-bush said to the trees, If you truly anoint me king over you, come put your trust in my shadow. And if not, let fire come out of the bramble and burn up the cedars of Lebanon." (Jdg 9:8-15) The lamb which Abraham sacrificed in place of Isaac was caught in a bramble-bush, and it is a bramble-bush which provided the thorns for the crown on the head of the Lamb of God. This passage in Judges was prophetic of Israel, and you will find that the fig tree, Olive tree and Vine are used over and over again in scripture as symbols for Israel. Whatever the Revelation says, whenever it uses symbolism, the symbolism the Revelation uses will be 100% consistent with the symbolism in the Old Testament. Like you say, this doesn't mean that every time the Revelation mentions "sea" or "earth" that it's necessarily symbolizing the Gentile nations on one hand and/or Israel/the elect on the other hand, and nobody really knows for sure where the symbolism ends and the literal meaning begins. But you can't pretend that the Revelation isn't packed with symbolism imported from the Old Testament.

Yes. I understand exactly how you feel, and why. There is so much that is bitter-sweet: "And I went to the angel and said to him, Give me the little book. And he said to me, Take it and eat it up, and it will make your belly bitter, but it will be sweet as honey in your mouth. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up. And it was sweet as honey in my mouth, and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter." (Rev 10:9-10) God bless, sis Lekh

Me too. The Poetic prophecy-literature of the Bible very, very often states the same thing twice, like this: "Then you shall fear and become bright, and your heart shall throb and swell for joy; because the abundance of the sea shall turn to you, the wealth of the nations will come to you." (Isa 60:5) "who stills the noise of the sea, the roar of their waves, and the uproar of the peoples. And the inhabitants of the furthermost places are afraid of Your signs; You make the beginning of the morning and the evening rejoice." (Psa 65:7-8) "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; " (Luk 21:25) "You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves arise, You still them." (Psa 89:9). "By awesome things in righteousness You will answer us, O God of our salvation; who are the hope of all the ends of the earth and the sea, of those far away." (Psa 65:5) "The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan; I will bring back My people from the depths of the sea; " (Psa 68:22) "Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters." (Psa 74:13) Notice how the dragon gives the beast from the sea his power in Rev.13? "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." (Isa 27:1) An ancient Canaanite text discovered by archeologists attributes the same thing to Ba'al: A 14TH-century B.C Canaanite text discovered by archaeologists at a place called Ra's Shamrah, ascribes the following feat to the Canaanite god Ba'al: