nikki1

Here lies a major scriptural error from the OP The Apostle Paul writes the opposite. Paul writes in II Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him 1. (rapture) Matthew 24:29-31 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.2. (Day of the Lord) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of peridition 3. I ask you, if the church is raptured as the OP maintains, how can the church witness the revealing of the man of sin (A/C), as Paul plainly writes in verse 3, if the church is not here? In addition, Scripture clearly associates The Day of the Lord as God

No, the last 1,290 days of the last 7 years is the end of the great tribulation period, or the last half of Daniel

I certainly agree with you here. I think that if there is a pre-trib rapture, then Jesus will have to apologize to all the saints throughout Christian history who endured tribulation and persecution and martyrdom for His name sake. I used to be staunchly post trib, which is very close to pre-wrath teachings, so close that I did not recognize the differences at first; but pre-wrath pinpoints and nails down the timing of the catching away with The Day of the Lord/God

No problem. That is why I was specific in asking. To be honest, I did not feel like going back through all the posts, so I asked. May I inquire how much time you see between the tribulation ending and the end of Gods wrath? I find it impossible to put a time limit on the question you are asking. This is not to say that others probably haven

And the rest of the story.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle7021145.ece Terrifying lift ordeal at Burj Khalifa tower, the world

Question addressed too-hoo? Anyone who believe that the great tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God, and to those who do. That's why I included "Why or why not?". As I commented earlier in post #24 here I do not believe that the great tribulation is the same as the wrath of God and I have already touched on the why

Question addressed too-hoo? Anyone who believe that the great tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God, and to those who do. That's why I included "Why or why not?". As I commented earlier in post #24 here I do not believe that the great tribulation is the same as the wrath of God and I have already touched on the why

Nikki, you on the right track. Consider what jesus said in John 17:15 Jesus is praying and He say "I do not pray that you take them out of the world but you protect them from the evil one". Scripture speaks for it self without conjecture! Others like to use 1 Thess 1:10 5:9 as promises that christians will not go through the tribulation. When you read these they are speaking of eternal wrath. Read them in context and you will see what i mean. Scripture speaks for it self without conjecture! Rev 3:10 is the only passage in my opinion that supports a pre-trib position. Its the only one that causes me to pause. this is why i say be faithful till the end regardless. I still lean post mostly. Blessings, e I have studied all three positions before I came to the conclusion of "after the tribulation of those days"... It was so simple and fit like a glove with all the other scripture given. You don't have to hack up scripture to make it fit. Why didn't the early church fathers promote this pre-trib theory if it was so? As you say, scripture interprets scripture. I don't see how you can even bring Rev. 3:10 to support a pre-tribulation theory? Without adding to scripture, which is forbidden. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. This verse says nothing about being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It merely says He will keep us from the hour of temptation. The word keep is significant in this verse, so I looked it up in the Greek-Hebrew concordance, and it in no way implies a rapture or catching away G5083-Keep τηρέω tēreō tay-reh'-o From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch. From this definition, it looks as if the Lord will be watching over, providing for and keeping us safe under his watchful care.

Parker1 I too believe this. The dilemma seems to come from the question when does God pour out his wrath? I believe that God

Blessings, Some mention a pre-mid and post tribulation rapture? But I don't see in Scripture where the Lord or the New Testament writers gave us more than one option. I was curious what the very early church fathers believed and taught regarding this in my quest for the truth and came across the linked to article below. Someone was involved in an internet discussion just as we are having, did his own research, and posted it on the internet of what the early church fathers believed regarding the catching away of the church. Now, I propose each one could do their own research and come up with the same thing. The early church leaders and fathers, from the time of John the Apostle to the time of Augustine, a period that covers over 300 years, all believed in a post tribulation catching away of the church. After doing my own research, and after reading these quotes, in context, and seeing the concern for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, warning them to stand firm in face of the persecution that may come to them, it is impossible for me to hold to a pre-tribulation belief. The early church did not have such a teaching. Who changed it?? http://www.pretribulationrapture.com/pretrib/article25c.htm

Blessings, Here

Blessings, Smalcald It's good to see someone here defend God's Word I would just like to add that The God of Judaism denies that God has a Son, Jesus the Christ. So how can Jews and Christians worship the same God? It

hmmm.... I do not know if you are speaking to me, but you seem to be making this a personal accusation. I merely pointed out something I have been shown ref Judaism. You don't have to agree with me, but to make it a personal thing is just plain wrong. You don't know me or anything about me, so please keep your personal insults to yourself. As far as my witnessing to the Jewish people, I probably have led more Jews to Christ than you know. Blessings,

That's cool ! I do not intend to argue this with you, because the facts speak for themselves. My intent was to point out that I believe Judaism is a false religion based upon the fact that those Jews who follow Judaism are not looking for Jesus, the true Messiah, but "another" man, not divine, not a redeemer of sin, who will bring all Jews back to the land, restore Jerusalem, rebuild the temple, establish temple sacrifices, set up a world government out of Israel. This is who they anticipate coming and are looking for, based upon my research and knowledge. You can go around in circles, but it is not going to change this fact unless you can show me this is not the messiah Judiasm is looking for. Grace to you, He's the same Messiah that they are looking for. The Word is clear, He will do all of these things minus the sacrifices for sin. Whether they believe it or not and whether they realize He's divine or not. Even the Apostles didn't undersatnd the full meaning of His Deity until they received the Holy Spirit. No Israel, No Jesus. No God of Abraham, No God of Christianity. Peace, Dave The Word is clear. But Judaism is not looking for Jesus. That it also clear. These are the things that Judaism is waiting for. This is the "messiah" Jews say they will follow. We should pay attention to this when trying to understand exactly who they will follow in the last days, which I believe we are living in, because the anti-christ will do all of these things the Jews are looking for in their "messiah" before the return of Jesus. Blessings,

Blessings, Nebula... That's cool ! I do not intend to argue this with you, because the facts speak for themselves. My intent was to point out that I believe Judaism is a false religion based upon the fact that those Jews who follow Judaism are not looking for Jesus, the true Messiah, but "another" man, not divine, not a redeemer of sin, who will bring all Jews back to the land, restore Jerusalem, rebuild the temple, establish temple sacrifices, set up a world government out of Israel. This is who they anticipate coming and are looking for, based upon my research and knowledge. You can go around in circles, but it is not going to change this fact unless you can show me this is not the messiah Judiasm is looking for.

It's far too late in my opinion. Blessings,

Blessings, Nebula It took me awhile to understand and grasp the idea and come right out and say that Judaism has rejected God. But God himself has said this in the OT through His prophets. Apostate Jews in the OT just called their god a different name; for instance Baalim and Ashtaroth. Now, Judaism calls their god G-d, and claim that he is the same God as the OT God. Of course, we know as Bible believing Christians, this is not true. Salvation in the OT as well as the NT was/is entirely by faith. Look at all of those who believed by faith in Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them , and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Old Testament believers believed, and this is what set them apart from unbelievers. Simple isn't it? Never-the-less, they have rejected the one who loves them and chose them. Note: I am not talking about the restored Jews-- that is a different topic entirely. Jews practicing Judaism are not saved because they do not have a saving faith. They are not waiting for or believing in the Messiah we know as Jesus/Yeshua, but a messiah. They are not waiting for a redeemer, but they are waiting for and believing for earthly restoration. They are believing in righteousness by keeping the Law. But Bible believing Christians know that Jesus fulfilled the law of the prophets. I believe once we acknowledge this we will be in a better position to pray for the salvation of our Jewish brothers and sisters. What difference does it make if the Jews are not looking for Jesus, but are looking for someone else, who is a false messiah? The point here, again, is Judaism is a false religion. They are looking for

Blessings, Nebula What, no flying feathers or fur? This really doesn

Blessings, More than one question comes to mind with the OP. To get to the truth of the matter, (and afterall, that is what we are looking for isn

so what if an atheist or a muslim rejects the mark? do they qualify for their "faith in Christ?" are you saying that anyone that rejects the mark is given a pass to eternity? are you saying that only Christians will be persecuted by getting a mark? or are you saying that ALL PEOPLE will be offered the mark? if you say "all people" then that isn't a Christian persecution. No, Those (Christians) who refuse to take the mark will be the ones who will be persecuted. All others, (who do take the mark) will follow after the beast and worship him. Revelation 13:16-17 (King James Version) 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Revelation 13:4-8 (King James Version) 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Blessings,

so what if an atheist or a muslim rejects the mark? do they qualify for their "faith in Christ?" are you saying that anyone that rejects the mark is given a pass to eternity? Absolutely not. Blessings,

Blessings, exrockstar Not so. In Revelation 20, the Apostle John saw the Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints. These saints are the overcomers who had rejected the "mark of the Beast" during the Great Tribulation. They had died for their faith in Christ during the final 3.5 years of this age. There can be no rapture before the first resurrection, which Revelation 20 shows us. The tribulation saints, who are Christian-Messanic believers who had died as martyrs and witnesses under 666 who had refused the mark of the beast. Revelation 20 shows them leading the resurrection of the saints which John called the First Resurrection coming to their reward. Revelation 20 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (were resurrected) 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection The problem with this is no where in Scripture that I can determine is there any thing that says Jesus will come secretly for his church, as you seem to imply. And what about the dead in Christ, who must rise first, before the church can be caught up to be with the Lord? According to scripture, the way that I intepret it is the resurrection-rapture is a consecutive event that occurs, or the resurrection immediately preceeds the rapture.l