OnetrueGod

Joi, I'm sorry you disagree with my post (although I'm a bit puzzled as to why). I totally agree with your summation that not all races worship alike and certainly agree that each of them should be free to worship as they please. I thought I was clear that I did not agree with the racism... so please forgive me as i obviously did not make that clear to you. As far as I can tell from your comments, your opinion is my opinion. I did not say nor am I insinuating that all white people are racist, nor even insinuating that people who follow old traditions are racists. My point was this... we should try and understand why we blindly follow traditions and make an effort to know when and why they were started and why we continue to follow them. It is not the traditions I object to, it is the condemning of others who practice different traditions, especially those based on different cultures. I believe to condemn others based on race, nationality, language, or cultural worship differences in wrong. We should be respectful of our cultural differences. I beg your forgiveness Joi, as i obviously offended you.

Excellent points! I realize that there were white congregations that were hand clapping and shouting all along. the charismatic and pentecostal movements especially. Today, many of the churches that banned it in the 60's practice hand clapping and shouting to some degree today. I am hoping this is because they saw through this thin veil of racist garbage soon after. But I can assure you that in the 60's and early 70's this ban had its roots in the racial segregation of it's time and unfortunately this tradition is carried forward to today in some areas and denominations. Just as you pointed out, some "pagan" or "bad" traditions can be turned to good, but I see no good in a tradition that discourages people from attending by condemning someone's cultural worship differences. I talked with some church leaders from a congregation in Huntsville, Alabama who were one of the first churches to integrate in the 70's. They made the decision to allow hand clapping, hand raising, and shouting because they knew that if they were to truly welcome blacks from their community, they had to respect their cultural differences as well. This all white congregation had a ban on such things prior to this move and nearly a third of the congregation left as a result when blacks began attending and clapping. Today the congregation is 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 other races (Hispanic, Asian, etc...) Again, it matters not to me whether a church practices hand clapping etc... or not. But when a church condemns others and openly rejects the cultural difference of different ethnic groups. How can this be inviting others to share in the love of Christ?

As a north carolinian allow me to apologize for idiots .. There are idiots of every color, race, and location on earth. I wasn't trying to paint southerners as racists, every culture has its faults. I was trying to get us all to think about "traditions" and where they come from. We follow many today "just because" it is what our parents, grandparents etc... followed and rarely look at where they come from. The traditions themselves may not be bad in and of themselves (I could care less whether a church hand claps or not), but rather we need to look at binding them on others or condemning others just because they don't follow our traditions. Especially when some of these traditions actually had evil intentions when they were first employed... Such as the ban on hand clapping, hand raising, or shouting out loud. I don't believe the people trying to enforce this today are racist. I believe they are just ignorant of why this ban was placed in the first place and simply follow it blindly. The thread kind of got a little off track on the Jew-Christian racism issue, but Christians should NEVER hate... Jews, blacks, or even Muslums, but be ready to share the love of Christ... not use Jesus as an excuse to hate or oppress others. Many Christians in the 1700-1800's condoned slavery as a way of bringing the "heathen" Africans to find Jesus, by enslaving and forcing Christianity upon them. Isn't that as foreign to the heart and love of Jesus Christ as you can get? The ends does NOT justify the means!

The saddest part is that all that I talk to today that still follow the tradition that hand clapping, hand raising, and shouting out loud are sinful, do not realize where it comes from. They no longer wish to segregate and seem to have repented of the racism (and hatred). These congregations "welcome" blacks to their services and many have black members. I believe they are simply following the traditions handed down by the previous generations without thinking about the history that produced them. They are no longer trying to segregate, but from what I've seen, it shows a great disrespect to the traditions and worship style of the black culture and therefore still offends and causes blacks to not want to worship with these people... intentional or not.

I grew up in a church in Little Rock, Arkansas in the mid-60's and early 70's. My family (we are white) had moved down from Kansas and we were appalled at the overt racism we saw against our black brethren both in the church and out. My parentrs taught my brothers and sisters that God loved people of all color, and that we should never judge someone by the group. The use of the "N word" would have been grounds for getting our bottoms tanned! Yet, this word was used freely by my white friends and unfortunately by many members of the church we attended... even amoung the church leaders and my Bible class teachers. My parents tried to "buck" the status quo and were labeled "liberal change agents", "N-lovers", and many other other derogitory terms for their beliefs. My father used to teach Bible classes at a near-by black congregation and one night a young black man asked to be baptized. The black congregation had no baptistry and it was cold outside, so my father took him back to the white congregation and baptized him in the baptistry there. You would have thought he was offering human sacrifice to Satan, by the reaction of many in the church there... It caused quite a fuss and some of the members even rushed in and immediately drained the baptistry and scrubbed the baptistry down! Many were angry at my Dad and he basically told them "You'll get over it." As the polical climate toward overt segregation across the country changed, people at the church could not overtly say "I don't want n-----'s to go to church with us here" but the bigotry and hatred still remained, so they began a thinnly veiled attempt to make segregation "scriptural" by saying that "hand-clapping, hand raising, and shouting out loud" were abominations to God because the scriptures were silent on these areas. These were common expressions among black churches of scriptual urgings by Jesus and the apostles to "rejoice", "encourage", "affirm", and "edify", but lmuch less common among white churches. By starting this tradition, they could segregate based on the difference in worship styles between black churches and white churches (yes, this is steriotypic) and say "we can't let blacks attend here, or they'll bring in this false doctrine to our assembly!" We left that congregation years ago, but I still see this tradition stated in many different congregations, churches and religious groups even today. I've asked many of the members about it, but most do not realize that it has racist roots. They simply follow the tradition. I don't mind that some churches don't clap in their assemblies, as that is the choice of their leadership, but when they condemn other churches that do... they don't seem to realize where this comes from. Do your religious groups have similar traditions and condemnations that are (in my mind) based in Christianity's racism of the past?

I am a late comer to this thread, but just want to make my own statement here from my own study of the scriptures and about the scriptures themselves and how we obtained English translations in the first place. This is for what it is worth and my opinion as God's word (yes the Bible) can speak for itself. The scriptures about the word of God being preserved through the ages for us is comforting and reassuring. Thank you to all the posters who presented those. This promise of Jesus has been tested by centuries and has not failed "The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord abides forever" (I Peter 1:24-25). We know the word of God is accessible to English-speaking people in many translations. Some translations are good, others are better. None of the major translations are so bad and no Greek text is so faulty, as to lead one from "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." But remember that they are translations from one language to another...by men... and therefore are always subject to improvements as the persons who translate are limited to only the textual base (original language) available to them at the time of translation. They are also limited to use of the English words and vocablulary of their time as the English language morphs with every generation (we no longer speak in the thees, thous, etc... of 1611 England KJV or the language used in 1855 ERV or even 1901 ASV) and even the most prominant and learned Ancient Greek scholars do not always agree upon the correct rendering of certain phrases and passages in order to translate them to English. Actually as older "copies" of greek text which were written earlier than the ones we now have are unearthed in the future, I would think that improvements to translation ought to be welcome and even appreciated, just as many have been used since the KJV was first translated. I would think that using several of these solid translations to reference along with a good Greek-text and lexicon would be advisable for serious texctual studies. this includes the KJV, which is a very trustworthy and well translated document...however, it is not the hallmark to compare to... the oldest "copies" of the original language is... Thus the real delimma here. If you want to get a good laugh... ask a Greek scholar if a spanish translation is the KJV? If the KJV is the 100% correct version... then all other people of the world would have to learn English to have access to the 100% correct version... because the KJV is only found in English, see my point? The real point of all of this is that we have God's word...yes in paper and ink form. but rather than throw stones at each version, lets concentrate on actually using the book! A modern farmer has a variety of new equipment, however, this does not guarentee for him to have a successful crop...the equipment must be used. Likewise, we live in a time where God's grace has given us a supply of new and better helps for Bible study. yes, we need to be skeptical and suspicious of "paraphrases versions" and versions that follow doctrinal lines rather than an honest translation of original language texts. But let us not presume that the presence of the equipment can substitute for the use of it. May God grant that we shall continue to be a people of one book...and that book the Bible. O.K. I'll get off my soapbox now...phew!

Overdoing it on Hamburgers and Hotdogs IS the American way! "hand me another one...wheres the mustard?..."

Sometimes they work through a person's email address book and will even use the name and apparent email return of a friend. They can make it sound like a friend is stranded somewhere and needs your credit card number to buy plane or bus tickets etc... or even just to have you wire money to them. NEVER respond "blindly" to a plea for help on the email... if it is from a friend... call that friend on a phone or contact by snail mail or something to verify it is truly from them, before you ever reply. 99.9% of the time it is a scam, so assume it is before you ever do anything besides delete. God wants us to be "fishers of men" not "Phishers of men"

Sad, It is difficult to me how they can practice something that is an abomination to God, yet seem concerned about their family being Christian... I have a question... I've been reading and studying the Bible for over 40 years, yet I haven't yet seen the word "christening", nor have I read about baby baptisms in the Lord's Word. It seems to me, every example of Baptism or acceptance of Christ into a person's life was done by people old enough to reason through their state of being and sence of sin in their life. I know of a few instancews of a person and their "households" accepting Christ (Lydia, Phillipian Jailer etc) but there is no reference to their ages. I would welcome to hear the scriptural reasoning behind christening, or at least the historical begininnings of it, because it confuses me a bit. Thanks.

They released the Dash Cam video from the terrible West Memphis Shooting of two police officers back in May. It plainly shows that the 16 year old son, Joseph Kane opened fire on the two West Memphis police officers that were killed on I-40. There's been a lot of speculation about who shot first, why they shot the police officers, but it looked to be generally like a senseless killing of the police. Apparently the father, Jerry kane had been involved with arrrests with Arizona police earlier and had a lot of anti-government sentiments. A lot of people felt that the Kanes may have been victims of abuse by the officers and fired from self-defence... but it doesn't seem to be the case at all. It looked like a routine traffic stop and a 16 yr old over-reacting by jumping out of the vehicle and spraying the officers with an AK-47. Very sad and tragic. about an hour and a half later the Kanes were killed in a shootout at a West memphis Wal-mart when a sheriff and deputy tried to detain them and stopped their vehicle. Both of the sherriff and deputy were wounded, when again, the Kanes opened up on them. My heart goes out to all four people who died in the shootouts and their families. Not only the brave police officers who died doing their duty to protect, but also Joseph and Jerry Kane. While I certainly don't condone the hatred that drove their actions and the senseless killing of the officers, I realize that they also have families left behind. The Bible is full of stories about fathers who passed their hatred and Godless behavior on to their sons... (especially from the accounts of the Kings of Israel and Judah) and I'm afraid it appears to have played out here. Satan and his powerful weapon hatred, has shown the world the senseless slaughter of life many times over. It exemplifies the reason we need God in our lives and in this world. I am praying for all 4 men who died and their families. so tragic and senseless.

Is it fantasy to imagine myself boating, rockclimbing, hiking, fishing, or laying on the beach? When things get very hectic and stressful, I take myself mentally to my "happy place" to ease the stress and make it through the day. In other words I sometimes "fantasize". If all fantasy is wrong... Am I being an abomination to God? It can be difficult to legistlate against "fantasy". There are not always black and white lines here.

I do believe all of our prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer is "no", sometimes the answer is "be patient, eventualy it will be granted", sometimes the answer is "yes, for the glory of God". I believe we should ask God to help us with whatever problems or illnesses plague us...ask... God's help may not come in the form we expect (or "demand"), but His help will come... sometimes to help us endure, sometimes to help us be rid of...but His help and His love is always there. I have talked with people who have lost their faith in God, because they "demanded" that God help them in a certain way. That way was all they were looking for and when it didn't happen that way, they assumed God didn't listen, or didn't care...or doesn't even exist! Does he "heal" everyone? ... if you mean, does he take away everyone's sickness or problem... the answer is no. His own Son prayed and asked to have the upcoming agony of the cross taken away...God's answer was "no". But God was there with Jesus and still loved and cared for Him. Jesus was "healed" later by the rewards of His home in Heaven and reign of all the universe. I think we need to be wary of demanding anything from God...even when we ask, we may be demanding in essence. We need to ask in the same way Jesus did..."Not my will, but thine be done".

Don't we all struggle with sin in our lives. Even Paul struggled with sin... Romans 7:18-25 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do

Onelight, Excellent point to always remember. With SO's, we may have to think ouside the "box" but we need to seek a way to reach people, no matter what there problems are. God always gives a way, if we'll only look for it.

asecretchord, while I agree in premise to this statement, there are a few problems in relation to sex offenders. 1. Civil law in most States prohibit sex offenders from being in public areas frequented by children, they must stay a certain distance from parks and schools and appently in North Carolina near churches (perhaps with Sundy School). Should the church encourage a sex offender to break the law in this case by attended the assembly. 2. By allowing a sex offender to attend an assembly w/children present, you may be putting temptation in their way, making it harder for them to stay "straight". Phycologists say that Level 3 and 4 offenders are never really "rehabilitated", that the best way to keep them from offending is to keep them away from temptation. having them near children would be kind of like forcing an alcoholic to work in a bar serving drinks. 3. Most States rank their sex offenders by level. The Romeo and Juliet law, which is a statutory rape law, having an adult have consentual sex or even marrying an uderage person (even if one is 18 and the other is 17) is usually a low level offense, still allowing the person to have access to public areas where children are present (but may limit being hired in the education or child care fields)....it varys from State to State. Having said this, there are more ways to "attend church" than attending an assembly with children present. We have a prison ministry separate from our congregational assembly, where special services are held for the prisoners in the prison, we have home Bible groups that study and worship with people in their homes, who can't attend due to work, or feel uneasy attending a large intimidating assembly, but feel more comfortable in a less formal atmosphere. We have "shut-ins" who because of age or health reasons cannot attend the assembly... we have a team of people who worship with them (usually providing them with a DVD or CD of the assembly. Christianity should not necessarily be seen as what we do in the assembly. What defines a Christian, is what we do the other 6 days of the week and our own personal work and study etc... Being "in the church" does not necessarily mean they attend the assembly with the rest of the congregation, but rather how they live their lives. I could see developing a "sex offender ministry" where a special assembly just for SO's could be had to encourage and help SO's through their "disease". If God can't turn them around...who can? Bottom line...A person can still have contact with the church without being in attendance with the children of that congregation. IMO

Especially keep in your prayers Randy English and his family. Randy is a missionary who lives and works in Pago Pago American Samoa and all around the pacific Islands. I have tried to contact him, but apparently communications are down. I know he was home in Pago Pago, because he just returned from a trip to the Solomon islands. Update, I finally got in touch with Randy, I found out that miraculously, he and his family were in Houston Texas at the time of the tsunami. He was there at MD Anderson having a follow up check up for his Bladder cancer treatments...which he also needs prayers for. Thank you for your prayers

Especially keep in your prayers Randy English and his family. Randy is a missionary who lives and works in Pago Pago American Samoa and all around the pacific Islands. I have tried to contact him, but apparently communications are down. I know he was home in Pago Pago, because he just returned from a trip to the Solomon islands.

I would agree with you, for those who keep the faith and strive to live for Christ...no matter how pitiful an attempt it may be, because we all fail...all of us, no matter how "good" we may think we are. It was all Jesus! All Him as to making the sacrifice and being that perfect Son of God. It is all about Jesus. But apparently... faith is needed. Without that, we fail to accept that which we don't deserve. Apparently even those who once believed and had faith, can lose that... we can "depart" from God, we can be "led away". If we depart from God or are led away from God...surely we are led away from His salvation. If not, why the warning from teh author of Henrews and from Peter? Hebrews 3:12 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; But I do believe that as long as we keep our faith...Christ has already done His part...and God will keep His promise of everlasting life.

How in the world do you say they are two different things? As I recall, we study in the word of God to stay connected and have a relationship with God, so if we lose our "salvation" or "christians backslide"--its the same, they both deal with staying connected with God. desi I certainly hope they are two different things. While not believing the OSAS doctrine, I do not believe that simply backsliding and having weak moments is the instant loss of salvation. All of us have weak moments when our lives are not exhibiting the life that Jesus wants from us (for me...everyday!) Sometimes I'm become discouraged and those around me would wonder if I'm even a Christian. In fact, even the great faithful Apostle Paul struggled with this... Romans 7:18-20 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do

mjrhealth, you are right...our own human nature is to hear ourselves talk (or post) Religion is just those "talking heads" making edicts and rules to govern. Jesus taught us a loving, life changing existance as a servant of God and our fellow man. I believe Christian Apologetics has its place. I am a scientist and love when things are discovered which show God's hand in this world. But quite frankly, God can defend himself in the glory of his creation. If a person (scientist or not) can look at the complexity and design of life and this universe and the absolutley impossible odds that any of this could happen by accident and not see the work of a designer...a creator...then there is little any of us as Christians can do to sway someone away from a "no creation" premise. Any scientifc fact that can be attributed to God by a human, can be explained away as an "accident" by another human. My 2 cents.

Jesus himself did not always say positive things to people. Matthew 21:12-13 12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'" Matthew 23:33 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? But we know that everything Jesus said was in love and to try and change the wicked behavior of others. He also used humor... Matthew 7:3-5 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Joking with others, as long as both of you know it is a joke, among friends is fine. Making someone the brunt of a joke to hurt them...is not. IMO

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. Sometimes negative words bring positive results... if they are done in the spirit of Love and not just to be ugly, or build ourselves up by tearing someone else down.

I admitedly did not respond well...again my apologies. I reacted with sarcasm rather than with the love and grace that my Savior showed me with His own example while the people around Him screamed "crucify him...crucify him!" I usually try and show respect, coutesy, and loving grace to unbelievers who show respect to me. But the real test is showing the same to someone like the one last night who simply intended to hurt, redicule, and insult us. I responded poorly, which is not a normal reaction from me. The post struck a raw nerve and I reacted...my bad.

So the question that I'm asking is... how do you avoid an empty intellectual faith? I pray, I read the Wordm go to church and a weekly bible study. I feel conviction about sins, feel led (at times) for His direction for my life. I feel the desire to be with Him. But I seem to fall into a bad habit of focussing on issues that are not central to faith, things like creation and other arguments. Andy, as a biologist by trade, I have struggled through (and continue to struggle) with apologetics and science intellectual precepts. When I was younger just out of college, I even doubted the existence of God based on what I thought was "iron clad" scientific evidence. But, what finally brought me around were two things. 1. Science theories and "evidence" changes daily. Many of the "proven" theories and principles were disproven or later to be found lacking. So I realized that science is "drunk on it's own ego". I realized that man still is just scratching the surface of this creation... In the big picture, science still "doesn't know squat!" 2. After looking and looking for the pieces of the puzzle of this complex and designed universe all we have found are more complex pieces showing that universe and the life that formed in it are much more complex and intellegently designed than we ever even dreamed. Design is proof of a designer...a creator...God. We can debate and try to show "scientific" evidence to justify our faith... but God is not bound by natural law...He is supernatural and therefore cannot be measured or tested by scientific principle. We must trust He is who He is and that He did what He says He did. That is true faith. Any evidence that we as humans can produce with human intellect, can just as easily be explained away by another human's intellect. As you say we are better searved to have simple trusting faith in our creator, concentrate on our service to Him and in the grace and mercy He is willing to provide us through His Son. We can get much too caught up in the "side show" of Christian Apologetics. But keep this in mind. If a person can look at this universe, this world and the life that abounds, in all its complexity and design, and not see a intellegent desgner, there is nothing that this imperfect human can show them that can come close. I have come around to the personal question...How can I not see God's hand in His creation? I hope this helps.