OneAccord

Papas Angel: I'm really curious how you integrate this patriotism with your conversion to the Mennonite faith. I am pretty familiar with the Mennonite beliefs because we have an awful lot of them around here (as well as the largest Amish community in our region, not to mention a Quaker soiciety as well) and they take a very strong stance against war and Christian involvement in such. Even to the point of not serving in any governmental positions, local state or federal, so they would not have blood on their heads even by proxy. In fact, one of their long-standing dilemmas has been whether to be silent about war or to speak out against it.

Oh, I thought the debate was over whether the fruit is literal or spiritual.

Here's an interesting verse out of the Old Testament, where most go to justify convictions about war: Deut 20:8 The officers shall speak further to the people, and say, "what man is there who is fearful and fainthearted? Let him go and return to his house, lest the heart of his brethren faint like his heart." God in His infinite and manifold wisdom provided a way for those who did not have the spirit of war in them to return home. I'm not sure if the numbering of the Israelite men over 20 years old could be considered conscription or not, but God did provide for voluntary exit from the military in this passage and others in Duet 20, including for the man betrothed to a woman who he has not yet married. I don't know the sequence of events in regards to this man and his mariiage, but here we see God's heart of compassion. The article also does not state how old this man is, but most who join the service are young 20-somethings, and have not necessarily grown into their convictions yet. I agree wth wjhoever said that a voluntary service should also allow for a voluntary release in special situations like this one.

Who's arguing? Just discussing a point. I think we will be vegetarians in heaven, and I'm looking forward to it, I don't really like eating animals that much anyway. I can't wait to play with the lions and the cobras!

But isn't that exactly what salvation is? Bingo

I'm afraid this doesn't make sense to me, that the OT is natural and the NT is spiritual. I see a lot of OT exegeted spiritually. Much if not all of the OT was types and shadows, how is that in the natural?

Yes, they may not necessarily be listening to you, but you can bet your bottom dollar they are watching you! One of the reasons people have such a hard time witnessing to atheists is because they tend to get all bent out of shape by the atheists comments and blow their witness. I've seen this many many times, because my father is an atheist and he loves to debate Christians, and he gets off on getting them so mad that they blow their cool. He had one Christian actually throw him out of a coffee shop screaming and yelling at him, and all in the shop agreed the Christian was out of line, totally blew his witness no matter how eloquent his apologetic argument was. As for me debating my Dad and trying to win him over that way? No way!!!! I must witness to him by my actions and deeds and the change he sees in me because of Him who dwells in me. I love the "living epistle" word. That speaks volumes!!!

Again I say mercy triumphs over judgement.

I mentioned the Mennonites because they and their offshoots are one of the few sects of Christianity that have a longstanding history of pacifism in the face of extreme persecution from both the nations they reside in and other Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike, and they never compromised to this day. The Quakers are also uncompromising in theirs convictions concerning non-violence and non-resistance to evil, but not all Quakers are necessarily serving Jesus. There is a split within the Quaker society, where some are Evangelical Quakers, but others embrace different spiritual paths, recognizing 'that of God' in their fellow man regardless of race, religion or creed. We have a pretty strong Quaker fellowship in our area, but not all are necessarily followers of Christ, though they deeply respect His teachings. As for the man in question, it's one thing how the military views him, and the laws that they judge him by, but it should be another matter how a Christian views him and judges him, as we are supposed to have the mind of Christ, not the mind of the war machine. I say let him enjoy his wife and his baby and a decent life. He deserves it as much as any of us.

If we symbolize the tree of life and its fruits in Revelation, we have to symbolize the tree and the fruits in the Garden of Eden too.

Dear Bloodstained Soul: This is an awesome post! You're doin' just fine!!! I am in total agreement with you on this one.

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice"...... James 2:13 For judgement is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgement. :il:

War is good business, invest your sons and daughters........ I would have to agree that this dude went into the service for all the wrong reasons. Particularly if he was a conscientous objector in the first place. That don't make sense. When there was concscription (draft) for the first and second world wars, the Mennonites (conscientous objectors) were split. Some preferred jail rather than serving the military at all, and others requested assignments that would not put them in a position of having to perfrom acts of violence, like in the kitchen or somewhere else behind the scenes, so they could fulfill their duty to their country without violating their religious convictions. I get the sense that this guy is still figuring out his convictions, and should be released on the grounds that he would not make a very good solidier as he doesn't seeem to have a well-developed killing instinct, and didn't respond too well to the training. I guess some people just can't stomach blood, guts, gore and war.

I think that seminaries have become far too homogenized. It's sort of like they train these folks to conform to image of the church, and have turned the calling into something more like a career or profession than a unique ministry. I think someone with the call of God on them would fare far better to do their seminary time in the wilderness like John the Baptist did and conform to the image of Christ rather than the church. If we had enough folks doing this we would see some radical changes in the church. I am always struck by how much the church conforms with the world. The suit-and tie image reminds me a whole lot more of businessmen than of disciples. I think far too often the Holy Spirit is quenched in these matters. Anyway, that's my 2 shekels.

Hey yod, I think we're agreeing twice in one day! Your scenario here makes total sense to me. I especially like the idea of the world being divided into 10 sectors, rather than the ususal 10 countries of the EU as most think.

AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US (cont.) Unforgiveness breeds hate, condemnation, unrighteous judgement and enmity. We are not called to unforgiveness, in the same way that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world (John 3:17). We are called out as laborers together with Christ (1 Cor 3:9) and we are called to a "ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor 15: ) When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, He gave him authority to bind and loose (Matt 16:19). Condemnation and unforgiveness binds, just as the sinner is bound under Satan until he recieves the forgiveness of God, so are we able to bind our brother and our enemy in the cords of unforgiveness. In John 20:23, Jesus made a very amazing statement as He was commissioning the apostles to send them forth. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." I think that most saints don't truly grasp the import of these words! When you do not forgive someone you are retaining their sins!!!! This word "retain" in the Greek is Krateo and according to Strong's it means: to have power, be powerful to be chief, be master of, to rule to get possession of to become master of, to obtain to take hold of to take hold of, take, seize to lay hands on one in order to get him into one's power to hold to hold in the hand to hold fast, i.e. not discard or let go to keep carefully and faithfully to continue to hold, to retain of death continuing to hold one to hold in check, restrain This is very interesting in light of the verse at hand. When we do not forgive (remit, release) a sin, (and in this case it is actually somebody else's sin, the sins of any), we are 'taking hold of' them, 'siezing' them, 'becoming master of' them, 'having power' over them. We spiritually have this person bound, yet we are given also the authority to loose them in forgiveness. This is a pretty heavy responsibility! Here in the very center of the Lord's Prayer, the pattern prayer for those who call themselves disciples of Christ, we find this statement "as we forgive those who trespass against us." It is inserted in such a way that it almost assumes that we understand this, that when we stand before God with our confessions, asking Him to forgive us this day, we are also bound to confess the sins of others as well. The forgiveness we recieve is not to stop with us, but to flow forth out of our hearts unto our neighbor as well. What a beautiful principle! o/ Oh dear Lord, I thank You that You would lead us into all truth, that You are ever-present to lead us in the paths of righteousness. I pray You would impress upon the hearts of every saint that bears Your precious name the kingdom principle of forgiveness. Help us to see in the Spirit the power that is wrought in every act of forgiveness. I pray that the Love with which You so love the world would increase and abound in exceeding abundance, wider, deeper, higher, and broader with each act of forgiveness. Oh Father help us to grow in to the fullness of this ministry of forgiveness for Your sake. \o

Thanks for posting this, nebula. Water issues are extremely important on the global stage and little understood. In industiralized nations like ours we so take for granted the water faucet in every house, hot and cold, clean and potable.

:il: Praise the Lord!!!!!! \o/

May I ask what kind of assignments you think we might get in heaven? Or positions? I thought we were just going to be worshipping all the time....You mean there might be work to do?

The 16 families that own the central banks that in turn own the federal reserve systems for us and many other countries. That's who really runs the world. No, it's the multi-national corporations who run the world!

I saw the Bema Seat Judgement there as well, tsth.

Man, this OSAS stuff makes me feel like the Lord has a gun to my head or something, if I make a wrong move I'm done for. Yikes!!! What happened to His yoke is easy and His burden is light? Are those just words to woo us into the fold and then He lays down the law, or what? It seems like many are not able to walk in the glorious law of liberty or to rejoice under the supreme law of LOVE, but want to bind themselves with more cords and bonds. I like the no strings attached comment earlier. Meanwhile let Him fill your heart with love exceedingly abundantly and walk in it.

I realize most are completely unfamiliar with South American politcs and US involvement as the media is for the most part silent about our doings down there. South America is regarded by some as another front in the War on Terrorism. The following article is the latest example of US-backed coups in South & Central American countries in order to install a more 'democratic' regime that will be more friendly to 'free-market' dispersal of oil: US is trying to overthrow me, says Venezuelan leader By Alexandra Olson in Caracas 18 February 2004 The Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez, yesterday angrily accused the United States of being behind a 2002 coup and of helping continuing opposition attempts to overthrow him. Mr Chavez said the US Government was providing millions of dollars to Venezuelan groups. "The Government of Washington is using the money of its people to support not only opposition activities but acts of conspiracy," the President said. A visit to Venezuela on Monday by Peter DeShazo, US deputy assistant Secretary of State for western hemisphere affairs, was part of the campaign "to try to destabilise Venezuela", Mr Chavez said. The US official urged the election authorities not to use technicalities to invalidate petitions demanding a recall referendum that could lead to a new presidential election. Relations between Venezuela, a top oil supplier, and the US have been strained over Mr Chavez's friendship with Cuba's Fidel Castro and his open criticism of Washington-backed free market policies. Mr Chavez said he had evidence that Washington was involved in an April 2002 coup that ousted him for two days. President George Bush's administration "had a responsibility in the massacre" that helped trigger the coup in which 19 died and US military personnel were involved, he said. Mr Chavez was restored by loyalist troops. Washington was slow to condemn the coup, initially blaming the President for his own downfall, but has repeatedly denied involvement. He cited the case of Sumate, a Venezuelan group that organised the recall petition. It received funds from the US National Endowment for Democracy. Venezuela's National Elections Council is now determining whether the petition is valid. The Venezuelan Workers Confederation, which led a strike in 2003 that failed to topple Mr Chavez, has also been a beneficiary of the endowment's funds, Venezuela says, citing documents obtained under the US Freedom of Information Act. The US embassy said it had no immediate comment on yesterday's remarks, but the US State Department recently denied Venezuelan allegations that Washington was funding anti-Chavez groups.

AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US AS Here's an interesting little word. This word 'as' is the bridge between the previous verse where we are asking forgiveness for our own trespasses to this verse where we are to be forgiving others. Here's Webster's: AS: To such a degree or extent Like In like manner This little word 'as' is asking us to forgive others in LIKE MANNER or TO SUCH A DEGREE OR EXTENT as we are asking and expecting God to forgive us!!!!!!! Ponder that, my fellow Christian! WE 'We' means the whole church, which is comprised of each individual in the same ways that the ocean is comprised of many drops of water. Again we are reminded that this is a collective prayer--all who are in the church, the body of Christ, are comissioned to this ministry of forgiveness to "those who trepass against us". FORGIVE Webster's: FORGIVE: to cease to feel resentment against to give up a claim on account of (debt) to grant remission of an offense, debt, or penalty to pardon to free from the consequences of an injurious crime This is the story of the cross---God sent His only beloved begotten Son to die a brutal death in order to forgive us our sin--and not only did Jesus Christ do that for us but here He is commissioning us to forgive others in like manner. It is not my intent to get into a discourse on forgiveness here, although it is a core Biblical theme, the nuts and bolts of salvation. I do however want to impress upon you that here hidden in the very heart of the Lord's Prayer is a call for the church to the ministry of forgiveness. In my mind, this is very important, as this prayer is powerful in its brevity, it is streamlined down to the barebones, and forgiving others is one of the essentials that we see here. And who are we to forgive? THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US Not only are humans busy sinning against God but also against each other! God is in the business of forgiving those who trespass against Him, and we are to be in the same business of forgiving those who trespass against us. "Those who trespass against us" is all-inclusive. Jesus has plenty of teachings on this. As a church and as individuals we are to forgive those who persecute us, and not only to forgive but to bless them! We are to overcome evil with good, we are to love our enemies, not just the brethren, and so on....... This is contrary to our sin nature. We want to keep account, eye for an eye, we want to see justice done in like measure. But forgiveness is a law in the kingdom of God! It is the ultimate act of love, which is the supreme law, the law of laws! We are called to conform to the image of Christ, to have His mind, and therefore to forgive in like manner as we ask God for our own forgiveness.