Permie

Sorry, but I'm confused by the wording of your sentence. Are you saying Jesus is not "Christ"? ("Jesus . . . but would instead say Christ i.e the Spirit") No. Jesus is The Christ. The word Christian used to mean "little christ", but of course language usage changes through time. Christ comes from the Greek christos as you probably already know and means anointed, or the anointed one. Jesus is The Christ, our High Priest and Lord: equal to God. Jesus said to follow Him, which the apostles explain: so that we could be transformed into His image. When I read this, the impression I get is that he is speaking and referring to Christians, not non-Christians. Yes, I can understand that reasoning. That is why I also posted the verses as written in another version: The mystery in a nutshell is just this: Christ is in you, so therefore you can look forward to sharing in God's glory. It's that simple. That is the substance of our Message. Another reason for posting another version is because Peter tells us that Paul is hard to understand. "The mystery" is referred to several times, but not as explicitly or explained as it is here. Btw, nebula, I don't know if you had seen it or not, but I replied to you several pages back. There were quite a few posts being made at the time between Seeker and HisGirl, so it might have easily been missed.

I recalled some scripture today in reference to Seeker's claim that Jesus is in everyone, to which I agree as I have stated, but would instead say Christ i.e the Spirit is. As for those who have denied this and wished to have scripture to back this claim up, here is the scripture that I recalled. I prefer the KJV even though I like all the versions for different reasons. So, below are the verses that I recalled. First as written in the KJV and second in The Message version. 26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Colossians 1:26-29 ~ This mystery has been kept in the dark for a long time, but now it's out in the open. God wanted everyone, not just Jews, to know this rich and glorious secret inside and out, regardless of their background, regardless of their religious standing. The mystery in a nutshell is just this: Christ is in you, so therefore you can look forward to sharing in God's glory. It's that simple. That is the substance of our Message. We preach Christ, warning people not to add to the Message. We teach in a spirit of profound common sense so that we can bring each person to maturity. To be mature is to be basic. Christ! No more, no less. That's what I'm working so hard at day after day, year after year, doing my best with the energy God so generously gives me. Colossians 1:26-29

Certainly we should all be looking ot the Lord for direction, but it did not seem like the poster was just pretending to be ignorant, but rather just looking to start a discusion on a subject, so he put forth the question in that sense. Don't we all know in part? And doesn't our knowing in part give us opportunities to have fellowship with other believers? I would suspect the original poster does hear from the Lord, and the discussion seems appropriate for discusion. Concerning the post: Isn't a temple a place to worship and hear from the Lord. And don't we worship the Lord with in. So we are the temple of the Lord. However, don't we also worship the Lord with others in a building. So the word 'temple' can and does seem to be used to mean both ourselves and a building. It is not unusual that a word has dual meanings. For example, "The word of God" is a phrase we often use to mean the Bible, and is also the name of the Lord [Rev 13:13], and we also use the phrase to mean a specific uterance we heard from the Lord. In Greek you see three words (Logos = the Lord Jn 1:1), (Rhema = an unterance), and (Graphe = Scriptures). So I believe the temple can be used to mean both, worshiping the Lord who lives with in us, and a building in which we worship the Lord. The Lord is always with us, but it is also written that whereever 2 or more are gathered in His name He will be there. So we see the meaning of both. right! i agree that the word temple can be used in different context. My question is what constitutes holy? If God dwells in us and can dwell anywhere does this make everything holy? I do not think so. So, in terms of a temple why should we be looking for a new temple in Israel if it wont be holy under the context of holy? How could the abomination happen in a man made temple if God dwells in His people? Some else said that because Israel and the place of the temple have always been holy to God. I can see that, ok. Hello elansing, Would Romans Chapter 6 answer your question? Specifically verse 3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

It is nice to find people who both know the Lord and His Kingdom!! God is good! Welcome to worthy, CBE1 Thank you. It is always nice to find people that indeed know the Lord Yes, yes indeed it is. <<< those are little hearts floating up aren't they? Here, this is a better emoticon: Humor? Obviously the mother if Isaac, so to speak. I've seen this before. LOL. The wub emoticon seems to be paradoxical ... hearts floating above the head, but then the mouth placement just doesn't seem to fit. Is it just me? Humor and laughter is good... it is as medicine to the soul.

It is nice to find people who both know the Lord and His Kingdom!! God is good! Welcome to worthy, CBE1 Thank you. It is always nice to find people that indeed know the Lord Yes, yes indeed it is. <<< those are little hearts floating up aren't they? Here, this is a better emoticon:

It is nice to find people who both know the Lord and His Kingdom!! God is good! Welcome to worthy, CBE1

Indeed.

{{{{{ Seashell }}}}} Praying for you and your loss... that you be comforted.

wow! thanks for the reply! its a tuff question and I can admitt i could not have said yes a few years ago. There was a time that I questioned whether I would be able to or not. I'd hope that I could, but did not know. That's not the case anymore, like you.

Yes. I would die. I clearly remember the moment that I knew that I would without hesitation. If I should ever be faced with this, I pray that I will not hate my executioners, but love them as Christ Jesus did His executions while He was on the cross.

Nebula, 1. Jeremiah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. According to the bible, we are each made of the earth. There is no where that God is not: If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8 Maybe the reason you find this idea of God (Spirit) being in even non-believers wrong is because you restrict your thinking to those who have the spirit to those "who are reconciled back to God"? Yet, God says that He fills all the earth. If the Lord dwells in everyone, how do you explain these verses? John 14:17 - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 1 Corinthians 3:16 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 2 Timothy 1:14 - That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. James 4:5 - Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? The wording of these passages implies that there are those whom the Spirit does not dwell. Yes, they do. You are right. I am not in disagreement. Again, though, I think there are two different things being spoken about and yet they are trying to be combined which is causing confusion. Those two things: #1 The Spirit dwells in those who have accepted Christ, also described as walking in the Spirit and being reconciled back to God. and then, # 2. The Spirit animates all living beings and holds in existence all that we would call non-living. A distinction is trying to be made here. Do you accept what is said in Jeremiah 23:24? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. Do you accept what is said in Genesis 2:7? And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. There is a difference between a living soul (and another concept: that of the soul that sins dies) and the quickening Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Without grasping that God indeed does fill all the earth, while maintaining also that that particular filling is different than the Spirit dwelling in us, then any further correspondence will continue to have us bumping foreheads. If God should withdraw His presence, everything would cease to exist. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts 17:28 Yes, I agree. Harmony is a must. You are building a theology around one verse. While it can be disconcerting to have a comment pulled out of a conversation that was had with another, I am glad that you did. It gives me the opportunity to re-iterate and hopefully clarify. It may appear to you that I am trying to build a theology around one verse, yet that is not the case at all. When Onelight asked that I provide a scripture that showed that the Spirit was in all people... even while OneLight was concentrating on "only" the thought that the Spirit "dwells in" and is in only those who "walk in the Spirit", I also provided a scripture from Ecclesiastes 12:1 & 6-7. This was done also with the hope in mind that it would be seen that without the animating spark, the breath of God in a living soul, there would be no desire within us to seek for and know God. Maybe that was a mistake on my part and should have just instead offered Acts 17:28, which is posted above. Also, these particular verses were chosen to show that it is when we are united with God (Spirit dwells in; walking in the Spirit; reconciled back to God) the Spirit that we, with our individual personalities, also return to God as our own soul and His Spirit have joined/united. This does not ocurr with those who are not reconciled back to God... who does not have the Spirit dwelling in them causing them to become the temple of God ... who does not walk in the Spirit of God... and all the other phrases that mean this same thing. The "animating" Spirit for the soul of the unbeliever returns to God "without" that soul's personality. The Spirit within a person, any and every person, will return to God. The only question that remains is will that Spirit return with the person's individuality or will it return without anything of that person? You'll have to tell me how I am coming along in showing the unity. This all began because Seeker said that he saw Jesus in all people, which allows him to love and serve all people. Even while I, as stated, would use different terminology, I do agree that God's spirit is in people... even while I would not say it is Jesus. For me that means the temple has been built within a person. All the same though, I do not wish to discourage and cause another to stumble if their understanding, in fact, does allow them to love and serve God by loving his neighbor as God requests and to be able to follow Jesus' new commandment: Love one another. I do hope I have clarified this confusion somewhat.

Hello, Nebula, There is only one Spirit. I do so agree with you. However, the above statement that you have made response to was actually posted by OneLight and not me. I do plan to address the rest of your post before long, but have some other activities to take care of right now and just wanted the above cleared up in the meantime. With the love of Christ, Permie

Can you elaborate more on the underlined statement? To be more clear of what I am asking, are tongues, or the gift of tongues as he meant, from the Holy Spirit? I don't know what he meant. The bible speaks clearly enough for me regarding tongues. This debate over tongues has been done to death and it can get ugly from what I have observed; for this reason I have nothing to add.

let me guess....you speak in tongues? LOL, I use my tongue to speak, and don't mind if others do... afterall, the bible tells us that it is self edifying. We all need to be edified, don't you agree? Some may need tongues, some may not. I personally don't think it is a sign of having salvation and the Holy Spirit.

You are right. These are amazing claims, and it is only just recently that I have become able to speak more freely about them, which I think you understand the hesitancy in doing this. Some of what you have asked may take a long reply to address properly. I do plan to make a testimonial before long, and maybe answers to your questions will be shown there. For now, yes, Jesus came in the flesh. We talked and at the end of the visit we embraced and told one another I love you. There was a witness to this, and just as it is shown in the bible, it was not known immediately that that was Jesus, but only afterwards as we began to talk of what had just happened. It was an unusual event. Are there others that you know who claim to of spent time with Jesus, in the physical realm? Do you mean that I personally know? No there isn't. The witness I spoke of ... they couldn't remain in the same room, they kept breaking down crying. This person tried over and over to be there, but when they returned they would start crying again and then leaving over and over. Edit to add: I didn't know that this was happening to them until later. While I did notice that they repeatedly left, my focus was on Jesus and didn't notice their tears. If you meant other examples of this occurring, then yes, the bible does have examples of this occurring.

It could only be that we are reading the same words from different levels of understanding. There are four levels of understanding to the bible, you know? They are: 1. literal, simple - BREADTH 2. parable, allegory - LENGTH 3. seek, search - DEPTH 4. inner, mystical - HEIGHT Only those with understandings below the level of #4 tell anyone that they are wrong in their understanding of scripture I note the additional accusation and to answer your question: No, not exactly. I used to speak about the bible in wonder-ment concerning how there are so many levels of understandings to each verse... how more becomes apparent and the understandings can become deeper and deeper. One day a Jewish rabbi told me that the Jews teach that there are 4 levels of understanding to each verse of the bible. This is how I came to know of this 'thing'. I would like to ask again: You said: "Only those with understandings below the level of #4 tell anyone that they are wrong in their understanding of scripture." But Jesus told people their understanding of Scripture was wrong a lot. Several words in Acts and the Epistles address people with wrong understanding of Scripture. Many cults have arisen throughout history that erred in the understanding of Scripture and needed to be rebuked. So I am not understanding this statement of yours. Hi Nebula, Did I miss a prior post, or just something within your post that I've already responded too? My apologies if I have overlooked something. (Edit to add: I did go back over the thread and see now that I did indeed miss your previous post... my apologies.) You are right. Jesus did tell people they were wrong a lot as did the Apostles. While I do not think I am above error, due to being in this fleshly tent, I have also observed that those with the greater understandings actually understand those who do not have the greater understanding. I always check myself when not understanding someone. Either I don't understand their choice of words, or I may be dealing with someone who has had something revealed to them that I know nothing of. On the other hand, if I know that they are in error, I do not push them away, but instead speak of how my understanding differs through love and patience. Through this process, I believe, truth can be known and much can be learned by both parties involved: Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17 The last thing any of us should do, imo, is to share in the spirit that is an accuser of the brethern. Thank you so much for your writing in a larger font. Very considerate and thoughtful. With the love of Christ, Permie

Please explain and unpack this statement and thought for me. Do you know "Messager85" who also posts here? Peace, Dave Sure, when I wrote that I was thinking of all the individuals, untold numbers, whom are living in the body of Christ and, since we have the tendency to look upon ourselves as individual units with Christ working through us... that is what I was thinking. I probably could have said it better previously. Even so, Jesus, Our High Priest, I have no doubt can also be in several places at once... more than two. I have not met Messager85 prior to coming to this forum. I did see his thread that was removed, but prior to completely reading it I wrote to him to ask him for a favor: to make more paragraphs and to increase the font size. Which he was willing to do, but didn't have the opportunity to do so. So, I am aware of him, but do not know him yet. Thank you and Peace be with you, Dave. With the love of Christ, Permie

I am not saying that Jesus was there physically, but hidden. I am saying that His spirit went where He willed and saw Nathanael that way. Bi-location doesn't have to be solely physical, which isn't to say that Christ is limited to bi-location alone. And how do you know that He willed His spirit to see Nathanael. Scripture does not say how Jesus saw Him. Again, there could have been other ways - such as a vision. Remember, Jesus only did as his Father directed. Exactly! Jesus knew whom His Father had given Him. And, yes, it could have been a vision too. A very valid concern, indeed. Satan can and does have imitations of the real. What I am advocating is draw near to God. Make God's will our own. Enter into His gates with praise and thanksgiving. How, I ask, can we otherwise do as Jesus said: All I do you can do also. Of course if a person decides to go about trying to steal the gifts of heaven, it will just be a cheap imitation and the gifts and fruits of the Spirit will not be manifest. That is understandable and I do not advocate trying to develop these things. At the same time, however, God will give (keyword: give) these same things to those who are His because those gifts are then used for the glory of God and not the glory of one's self. And it is due to this that we as Christians should not shut someone down because they are experiencing the divine, celestial gifts. It is a great wisdom to wait on the Lord regarding these matters and a great folly to try and develop them ourselves. Being wary is a good thing, but taken to the extent that all who may have been given celestial gifts by God are demonized is also a tragedy. LOL! Yes, it was. Thank you for putting it in isolation and not in a huge block paragraph; otherwise, I may not have even been able (wanted) to, due to eyestrain, have read all the way to the end!

Yes, which is why I said I read it differently. I did not add to the statement made and imagined it to mean unbeliever. Let Seeker say which he meant. This is true. The other fact that remains is that a person could not be alive unless God animated them. The semantics are: "walking" in the Spirit versus being made to be a "living being" by the Spirit. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3 Nothing exists without God. When speaking of "walking in the Spirit" this is true. The Spirit of God, in the OT, is not the same as the Holy Spirit spoken of in the NT. You ignore scripture that I have posted. Why? As for your statement I have colored, Gods spirit fills the earth in a different way then He fills us. God is Omnipresent, but His Spirit does not dwell in everyone, as you claim. That goes against all of scripture as Christ and the Apostles taught. What you are saying is very similar to Christian Universalism, which is a false doctrine. What exactly are your beliefs on salvation and the Holy Spirit? I did not ignore them. I was, however, having trouble with the quote function. As for your second paragraph, I have no contention with what you are saying, except that the semantics of "walking in the Spirit" and being "animated by the Spirit" are being overlooked. They are two different things. I already provided the scripture that shows the Spirit returns to God that gave it. Rather than twisting the scripture as you suggest/accuse, there is misunderstanding of what is being said/meant i.e the semantics. You posted below this scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. At the time that that was written, what scripture do you think was being referred to? The New Testament had not even been compiled yet. Do you think God changes? Again, you know only what you want to understand. Is this one of the things Christ showed you in the three years He taught you privately, that you would not bring until someone addresses the subject? I note the additional accusation and to answer your question: No, not exactly. I used to speak about the bible in wonder-ment concerning how there are so many levels of understandings to each verse... how more becomes apparent and the understandings can become deeper and deeper. One day a Jewish rabbi told me that the Jews teach that there are 4 levels of understanding to each verse of the bible. This is how I came to know of this 'thing'. No; no; no. I am a follower of Christ Jesus. Shall we call on God and have Him judge between us?

LOL, yes! There are many pearls. Since you liked that one, how about: Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." John 1:50 Jesus was there, present with Nathanael under that fig tree, but Nathanael couldn't "see" him! At this time Jesus was as we are, in a human body, but . . . He was there, under that fig tree, unseen. How could this be? Permie, good friend, you've done your homework! (unscriptural . . . grumble, grumble) The Spirit goes where it will. There are other ways Jesus could have seen Nathaniel. Why are you jumping to the conclusion that Jesus must have been there physically but hidden? I am not saying that Jesus was there physically, but hidden. I am saying that His spirit went where He willed and saw Nathanael that way. Bi-location doesn't have to be solely physical, which isn't to say that Christ is limited to bi-location alone. Question: Why do the three of you always increase the post size? Out of consideration and courtesy for those who may be visually challenged and find the larger font easier to read. Such as those like myself. This is the same reason that I put more paragraphs in than are actually necessary... it's easier on the eyes.

LOL, yes! There are many pearls. Since you liked that one, how about: Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." John 1:50 Jesus was there, present with Nathanael under that fig tree, but Nathanael couldn't "see" him! At this time Jesus was as we are, in a human body, but . . . He was there, under that fig tree, unseen. How could this be? Permie, good friend, you've done your homework! (unscriptural . . . grumble, grumble) The Spirit goes where it will. Amen, the Spirit does. I also wonder if anyone has experienced what Jesus said in the following verses, and which I believe applies to what occurred with Nathanael. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Mike, I would daresay that you just do not recognize the mountain that you have indeed moved. That is just what I suspect (or should I say hope and trust) I'm always juggling with the thought that so much more that we take literally may be figurative in the context that God is a SPIRIT and those that worship him must do so in like fashion. Mike. Amen, Mike. Amen.

Onelight, You are right. These are amazing claims, and it is only just recently that I have become able to speak more freely about them, which I think you understand the hesitancy in doing this. Some of what you have asked may take a long reply to address properly. I do plan to make a testimonial before long, and maybe answers to your questions will be shown there. For now, yes, Jesus came in the flesh. We talked and at the end of the visit we embraced and told one another I love you. There was a witness to this, and just as it is shown in the bible, it was not known immediately that that was Jesus, but only afterwards as we began to talk of what had just happened. It was an unusual event.

I have to disagree with you statement colored. The Holy Spirit resides in us, guiding us, teaching us, creating a us into the likeness of Christ. Unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit; therefore, can not walk in the spirit as you say. I read that differently. I didn't think "unbelievers" were being spoken about, but rather those who hold to the One True God. How can you read it any different then how it is written? Tell me, who are the "Non-Believers" that can walk in the Spirit? Jesus is not in the unsaved, so they can not meet and serve Jesus in them. You need to be careful stating that those who are not His have Christ and the Holy Spirit in them ... I would have used different terminology. Even so, what Spirit is it that returns to God that gave it upon physical death? The spirit of the believer, for the Holy Spirit is God, as with the Father and the Son. Known as the Trinity. Then your understanding of scripture is wrong. It is not until one accepts Christ that His Spirit is in us. Show me scripture where it tells us that the Holy Spirit is in everyone, saved and unsaved. Provide scripture that states that His Spirit dwells in the unbeliever. John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. John 15:26 But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-19 (New King James Version) Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” There are many more references, but you get the idea. Only those who receive Christ have the Holy Spirit. Onelight, I made a response, but was told by the system that I had more than the allowed number of quoted blocks. So... this response will made a little differently than is usually seen: Seeker's Comment: Anyone can walk in the Spirit, both Christians and Non-Christians as God's voice is in everyone. OneLight's Comment: Unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit; therefore, can not walk in the spirit as you say. Permie's Comment: I read that differently. I didn't think "unbelievers" were being spoken about, but rather those who hold to the One True God. OneLight's Comment: How can you read it any different then how it is written? Tell me, who are the "Non-Believers" that can walk in the Spirit? As I said, I don't see 'unbelievers' being mentioned. Only 'non-Christians'. There are those who believe in God, but are not Christian. Do you think Jesus ignores those of another religion whom love God with all their mind, heart, strength and soul and their neighbor as themselves, or are trying to? Permie: I too think all have the Spirit, but that not all have been reconciled back to God yet. It is God's Spirit that animates us. Seems to me that none would live without His animating presence within us. Onelight: Then your understanding of scripture is wrong. It is not until one accepts Christ that His Spirit is in us. Show me scripture where it tells us that the Holy Spirit is in everyone, saved and unsaved. Permie: I think also that if we were to first consider that what we "do to the least of these" by seeing the Christ Spirit within others, even if that Spirit has not been born in them, may... just may expedite it's birth. OneLight: Provide scripture that states that His Spirit dwells in the unbeliever. 1. Jeremiah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. According to the bible, we are each made of the earth. There is no where that God is not: If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8 Maybe the reason you find this idea of God (Spirit) being in even non-believers wrong is because you restrict your thinking to those who have the spirit to those "who are reconciled back to God"? Yet, God says that He fills all the earth. It's true that those who are reconciled back to God are filled more fully with God's spirit and are anointed with His power. Not only that, but believers have the opportunity to return to God with their individuality, whereas non-believers do not. 2. Ecclesiastes 12:1 & 6-7 1Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. You had said: "The spirit of the believer, for the Holy Spirit is God, as with the Father and the Son. Known as the Trinity." Prior to being filled with the Holy Spirit, the spark of the animating Spirit of God dwells within us, it is what pulls us to God and drives us to know God. The above scriptures contradict your statement that it is only the spirit of the believer that returns. The Spirit of God that was in the unbeliever returns without the individual's personality. OneLight: Then your understanding of scripture is wrong. It could only be that we are reading the same words from different levels of understanding. There are four levels of understanding to the bible, you know? They are: 1. literal, simple - BREADTH 2. parable, allegory - LENGTH 3. seek, search - DEPTH 4. inner, mystical - HEIGHT Only those with understandings below the level of #4 tell anyone that they are wrong in their understanding of scripture.

Isn't it most awesome? The King of kings and the Lord of lords will call us friends. I am awed and humbled by this. I just recalled a verse about this being called friends by Jesus and how it relates our going from glory to glory. That verse is: John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. And then, that leads me to think of the verse: Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Could that cause one to pause and wonder: is there more that Jesus revealed and continues to reveal to His friends that is not written? That the servants to this day know nothing of, yet? Can you expound on this a little more? I am trying to follow what you are saying am this threw me a curve. Hello, OneLight, We know that Jesus taught and did more than what is written due to this verse: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:25 Did I answer your question? Yes, it does. I agree that not all the Jesus did has been written. That is one reason why He sent the Helper, the Holy Spirit. What you have written has made me think of these verses: 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:7-8 Isn't it glorious?! Praise God! Thank you, Jesus!