brontosaurus

Isaiah 53:1 "Who has believed our report? And to whom has the ARM of the Lord been reveiled? For he grew up as a root..." Isaiah 59:1 "Surely the ARM of the Lord is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear." Isaiah 59:15-16 "The Lord looked and was displeased that there was no justice. He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so HIS OWN ARM worked salvation for him, and his own righteousness sustained him." John calls Jesus "the WORD of God" Most of the N.T. refers to Jesus as "the SON of God" And Paul says that "...through Him all things were made..." So what can we conclude from all this: "EVERY TIME GOD EXTENDS HIMSELF TO DO ANYTHING - THAT VERY EXTENSION OF HIMSELF IS JESUS." ARM = EXTENSION OF BODY WORD = EXTENSION OF THOUGHTS SON = EXTENSION OF EXISTENCE Jesus is the EXTENSION of God to man. And this is the gospel story also The Holy Spirit is also an extension of God, but in a much more vaporous, cloudy way, whereas Jesus is in a much more direct way. There are numerous examples in scripture to support this idea too. The Holy Spirit will come upon a person or place and fill that person or place - more ambiguous but just as powerful. Hope this all helps...

Here is a much better description that one brother in the Lord gave me and it seems to make more sense than all the others. Jesus is God's arm. Period.

Filibuster: Definition: A Filibuster is the term used for an extended debate in the Senate which has the effect of preventing a vote. Senate rules contain no motion to force a vote. A vote occurs only once debate ends. The term comes from the early 19th century Spanish and Portuguese pirates, "filibusteros", who held ships hostage for ransom. I don't know too much about filibusters but from what I've heard, I'm amazed they aren't banned yet. Maybe someone else can give more information on it. I heard once that several decades ago - a Senator, to prevent a vote from taking place, actually stood up and read directly out of an Encyclopedia for 51 days (I think that was the number of days) and he had every legal right to do so - no one could stop it! What a waste of time!

Jatfla - great topic! Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Whatever reasons the president had for refusing to meet, I applaud him and I am continually amazed at how much more "Christian" he is than all the presidents we've had as far back as I can remember! What a testimony that he refused to meet with members of his OWN denomination - perhaps because he got saved "for real" several years back and now stands strongly against abortion and gay rights and terrorism and for Israel. Rafter - I think your situation has a very clear answer. I'm surprised no one brought up this verse yet, but maybe it hasn't come to anyone's minds... I Corinthians 5:9-11 "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat." It is clear that if they call themselves Christians, but believe not as Christians in the most important issues (like ressurrection of Christ) then they are worse than the world and we are to avoid them like the plague. Like every heretical group that crept out of or into Christianity since the beginning, this one too will eventually fade and die off. We should concern ourselves with growing in the Lord and reaching out to those who've never heard the gospel the first time...

I have not read the endless pages here so forgive me if I re-state anything someone said before. I want to answer Biscuits original questions. Yes, demons can be cast out in an instant, and it need not take hours of struggle. Yes, the difference is the amount of faith. Yes, Jesus did this in an istant because He was Jesus. Yes - we can do this too - though the world waits for someone to believe it - Jesus said, "Even greater things than these will you do because I am going to the Father." As for the naming of Spirits... it is interresting that Jesus didn't even claim to name any names... He actually demanded that the demon tell him that info: "What is your name?" I believe we approach demons NOT by some code or theory or magic words or set of rules. We approach them like John Wayne. That's how Jesus did it. Total confidence - even annoyance at the pesky varmints that would seek to cause infirmity. That's how Smith Wigglesworth used to pray for people's healing - it only took a sentence and then often he would angrily strike the person - but they would always get healed that instant! No preacher today will physically hit a human because no one today has the kind of confidence in Jesus' ability to heal that Smith did. It is usually fear that makes the "deliverance" process take longer - though it may still work.

Angels wrote: Law says, "Be holy and you MIGHT get to heaven." Grace says, "Be holy because you ARE going to heaven." I love that one too!!

Angels statements are accurate. The law is not bad - but it is only a temporary safety until the perfection of love comes. It's like training wheels on bicycles - they're a safety if you're a little kid and don't know how to ride (and don't want skinned knees). But training wheels are rediculous and a hindrance to someone who can ride well. Paul says, "Do we therefore negate the Law by our freedom under grace - God forbid! Rather we UPHOLD the law." What this means: When you learn how to ride without training wheels do you then let yourself fall and get hurt? God forbid! Rather, you UPHOLD yourself, just as the training wheels once did for you! Therefore all who are under the law of grace do not have to follow all of the laws of the old testament all the time... but the basic purpose of those laws - love and righteousness - will be fulfilled even more. Make sense???

Biblically and Historically it was always the father who determined the Jewishness more than the mother. It wasn't until the dark ages with all the rape in anti-semetic Europe that often no one even knew who the father was, but of course you could always tell who the mother was, so this unfortunately became a rule that it was safer to go by the mother being Jewish to determine if the baby was. Today, as far as I know, for purposes of citizenship, Israeli law recognizes someone with either a Jewish father or mother as being Jewish.

What about something as simple as blood sustaining life? Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood..." Medical doctors didn't know this until the late 1800s.

I do not disagree that we will never know the fullness of God or everything He is, I said that in my post. But the verse you used is a worship verse: it's point is to try to paint a picture of the limitlessness of God, that we may fall on our faces and worship Him - NOT a verse to disuade us from trying to seek out His mysteries. God delights in revealing Himself to those who seek Him, and He will show more and more and more as we seek and pray for more and more... What I was specifically criticizing are those who use verses like the one you did as a cop-out: "Since we will never know, we should just accept how much we do know, and leave it at that..." This is the mentality I find, whenever I talk about the "trinity" - "Well, this is my understanding, and the rest is too difficult for human minds to comprehend, so don't worry about it." - that is the attitude I find false and foolish, and contrary to how God wants us to be. There is much more insight into this study that I haven't given yet, I just wanted to see some reactions first - plus, I needed a break 'cause it takes some effort to try to put it all together in a way that doesn't misrepresent it...

scary...

To combine the feelings of Ninja Squirrel and Tim, what really caught me by surprise is that the opening page of the Koran reads not like a harsh call to war or fear of Allah, but like a beautiful call to New Age-ism... Far from being arcane or foolish, it is as seductive and dangerous as New Age, and almost seems of the same spirit... There is this weak whiney seductive spirit of Hinduism that I find the same attitude in the Koran... strange, I've never heard anyone compare Islam to New Age, but there it is in the opening page... If I remember right, it mentions Buddha, Confucious, Jesus, Jews, and a whole range of other philosophies and says now here is the beauty of how we tie them all together as given by the servant of God, the prophet Mohammad...

If Sharon really wanted to "ethnic cleanse" do you think it would take him more than 24 hours? Israel has the best military in the world for it's size, yet they can barely defend themselves against terrorists in their own back yard, simply because Palestinians have gained the world's favor through the "victim" mentality, so all of Europe is just waiting for an excuse to fight for the arab side. If America didn't favor Israel, every other nation in the world would have demolished her permanently years ago. And the only real peace - permanently kicking all palestinians out of Israel for good, or forcing them to become regular decent citizens of Israel and stop blowing themselves up, would cause every nation of the world to cry "outrage" and attack Israel. You have NO IDEA what the Palestinian people are really like. They were kicked out of Jordan because they tried to take over the kingdom from the late King Hussein of Jordan. They instigated the horrible civil war that caused all of Lebanon to go from a beautiful countryside, to a war-torn ash heap. No arab nation wants the palestinians, because they all know deep down inside that they are dangerous and ruthless, yet they use the Palestinians like pawns to try to cause the world to hate Israel. You have NO IDEA. Palestinians are trained from the time they are born that the ONLY way to advance themselves is by attacking those who are "holding them back" rather than just be productive citizens. Israel does not hate them for being Arab or Muslim or Christian or anything - Israel has Arab citizens in their Army who are decent and normal. It is the fact that they are trained to hate from birth, and this has been going on now for over 4 generations, and Yassir Arafat (who is really from Egypt and not Palestinian at all) riles them up even more to attack everyone. He only cares about himself to the detriment of this people-group that no one wants but everyone wants to use as a weapon against the Jews in their midst. You have NO IDEA. My grandmother and my mom's best friend have lived in Israel for nearly 20 years now. I've been there twice. Have you ever even been there? There are sections that you cannot walk in even as a tourist, because you will get a boulder thrown down on you from a hiding spot in the cliff above. There are places you dare not swim, walk, drive, or visit. Arabs, Jews, Christians, anyone can move freely throughout any Israeli area - even Palestinians can freely move in and about... but you cross over to certain Palestinian-controlled areas, and you will get a rock or a bullet hitting you, just because you are not one of them. You don't hear this in the news because it happens so much, people aren't even interested anymore. You only hear about when 20 people get blown up by a suicide bomber. You don't hear about the other 100 that day that are in the hospital because they had big rocks thrown or dropped on them from cliffs. My grandmother's friend died when a basket-ball sized rock was dropped on her car from a cliff as she drove through the desert and it went through the windshield and crushed her chest. This is ALL Palestinian. The Israelis only fight back when it gets unbearable... do you know that for every one suicide bomber that you see on the news for blowing up 8 or 10 people, there are 100 suicide bombers that same day who never made the news because they were caught and arrested before they could detonate themselves... Is it any wonder Sharon sends tanks into Palestinian villages quite often to find out who's making all these bombs? What do you think Bush would do if Canadians sneaked across the border once a week and blew up 15 people in New York State or Maine? Do you think there would even BE a Canada left once we got through with her?

Timothy, please don't remove my post. I promise not to be abusive in the future... really. And I am really not one of the Nephilim (I am not 9'3'' - though one time I dreampt I was) :c2:

I think this whole discussion just stinks! :x: And, by the way, I am one of the Nephilim (am currently 9'3'' tall)

Another interresting note: A college friend of mine who doesn't believe in any particular religion but had to study a number of texts from the Koran and Bible for an Intellectual Heritage class, said this to me: "The Bible is much more easy to follow. It seems almost like it can't be right 'cause it's TOO easy. Yet, people in the stories often break the rules anyway. That can't be right - that's not being religious, that's being more like me... The Koran on the other hand is much stronger. It lays out harder messages that are more challenging, and seem like what a religion should be. But it's like impossible to do it. The Koran looks more appealing because that's what a religion should be: hard. But the Bible is more like real life."

I LOVE the name "Ninja squirrel"!!! I think it is absolutely the coolest name I've seen yet. If I'd thought of it first, I'm not sure I would have picked "brontosaurus" But my motivation for liking both names is that they are so rediculously silly. (btw, on Ebay, I am crazybrontosaurus) Anyway, the Koran is SO fascinating!!! Has anyone read parts of it? When you read the opening page of it, it is BEAUTIFUL!!! Completely poetic, it blends together all the religions and philosophies of the known world and sums them up in saying they all saw part of the truth or different sides of the truth, but following is the final word on what the truth is, given by the servant of God, the prophet Mohammad. I was so amazed 'cause that's not what I expected. Also, the Muslim students on campus I was interviewing for my class assignment seemed gentler and sweeter than their Christian counterparts in Campus Crusade for Christ... All this caused me to look and think and ponder and pray deeply about what Islam actually is, where it came from, what specific elements of it are based on truth, which on lies, etc. beyond the obvious things like taking the Bible stories and doctoring them up falsely, which any Christian expert on Islam will tell you all about. But I wanted to know what spirit was at work behind this... why did this one man (or one spirit) completely change the entire Arab people in one generation, and turn them from Paganism to Monotheism, and are they specifically stronger or healthier before or after....? fascinating questions, aren't they? Still pondering and learning, of course, but here are some easy differences I came up with between Christianity and Islam, the Bible and the Koran... Koran: Completely in poetic form, divided into over a hundred stanzas, some are pages long, some only a few lines, telling the life of Mohammad, his teachings, and his version of the Judeo-Christian Bible. Bible: 66 Books, divided into chapters, divided into verses, some being history, some being prophecy (foretelling future), principles, teachings, anecdotes, and personal letters to friends and groups. Koran: mostly written in a mysterious intriguing style, drawing the reader in like a fly to it's deep mysterious charm and harsh scary doctrine, as well as basic principles and standards for conducting one's life. Bible: written in many different styles across the span of human thought and emotion, from mysterious spiritual poetry (Psalms and Ecclesiastes), to simple hard logic (Proverbs and Paul), from history to prophecy, from tragedy to comedy. It stabs down into the deepest recesses of the human heart at times, and at others, lightly paints pretty little pictures of nature and beauty. Koran: Written by one Arab man over the span of his life, in Arabic. Bible: Written by roughly 40 men over a span of roughly 1,400 years, living on 3 continents, in 13 different countries in 2-3 different languages - all Jewish (including Luke, who was probably a Gentile convert to Judaism). Mohammad: Appears to be a gentle and limitlessly thoughtful and sensitive person, very spiritual, and with a definite command of authority, led/expanded his religion as he got it from his "spirit-guide" through war (battles) and expounding (teaching). Within the first 100 years after Mohammad's death, Islam had spread like a title wave from India all the way to Spain. Jesus: unmatched before or since in ability to heal people, restore life, cut to the heart of a matter, and with lightening speed slice through any lie, falsehood, infirmity, enemy (though he rarely used his powers to oppose people physically), or force (even nature). Never started a religion, except for a small Bible-study group of roughly 12 men, who after his death went out to every corner of the world and laid the spiritual and physical foundation for the 21sh Century as we know it. Basically, the Koran is more comparable to one book of the Bible, but stretched out much longer... probably most similar in style to one of the Major or minor prophets of the bible, though the Koran contains no prophecy of future events. It is like one fluid block, whereas the Bible is choc full of every imaginably different style or type of writing. Notable strengths for the Arab people of Islam over previous paganism: -One God -One holy book -Definite purpose in life (sometimes ambiguous, but much more definite than Paganism or Hinduism/Buddhism) -Connection with and place in history (though that part was made by borrowing the books and history of the Bible and the Jewish people and then doctoring them up to fit the Arab people instead) -Abstainance from Alcohol -Abstanance from Pork -Laws against fornication or sexual immorality -Laws for how to govern family in a moral and responsible way -Rhamadan (which gives some form of practice of self control in fasting for set times) Notable Strengths of Christianity over anything: -incomprehensible, everything. Appearance of strengths of Islam over Christianity: Islam appears a much more macho, focused, man-oriented, strong, structured religion whereas modern Christianity often appears weak, pansy-like, more into talking and discussing than action, being nice rather than fighting for what you belive in, often more of a "woman's" or feminine religion. *(note: this may seem sexist or just false, but statistically, during the second half of the last century, women made up more than 70% of any church membership, and at prayer meetings, Bible studies and special events, that number often jumps to 90% women) Other than that, I see no other proof that Islam is in any way better. 99.7% of the Terrorists in the world are Muslim, even our recent little sniper-tragedy was a Muslim. Muslim countries are almost all horribly oppressive and repressive to the general population, and dirt poor. In comparison, all the most civilized, strong, rich, powerful, and high-character nations are Christian or Christian-originated. And that number takes an even higher leap if you separate out Protestant Christian nations (like America, Great Britain, etc.) from Catholic nations (like in South America, Italy, etc.).

I would agree with Martyr on this one (though EVERYONE'S post has been beautiful on this thread) Science and Truth will always agree, there is nothing to worry about. If it seems they don't, then there is an error somewhere and we simply have to find it. (The secular scientific community and the medical community by the way are often more deeply rooted into falsehood than your average citizen, so by science I don't mean any person's opinion just because they call themselves a scientist) A group of the top philosophers and historians were asked to identify the most significant event in human history - the point that can be identified as the most influential of all in the way history was shaped. After talking and discussing it for some time they came to an agreement, and presented the answer in three words: THE PERCEIVED RESURRECTION. So, if the ressurection was fake, then the most influential event in history was a lie, and therefore, it logically shows that lies carry more power than facts.... which they don't.

Cat, you are so insightful to bring this up... It really makes one think deeply about how far our morals should extend... to just ourselves, our houses, our personal properties, etc.? I guess the answer, once you really think it out is clear - but it takes guts to make a stand like that. Trying to imagine myself in a situation like that, I though of my aunt (Dad's younger sister). She is one of my dearest relatives, and I respect and love her so much. But she does have boyfriends that stay at her place sometimes. If I had my own family, and she ever wanted to visit, I would have to tell her she could not stay in my house with her boyfriend, EVEN IN SEPARATE ROOMS. They could come to dinner, and spend the day with us, but they would have to spend the night in a hotel. This may sound harsh, but it is the only way I would feel completely at ease about my children not getting the wrong kind of ideas, or thinking their daddy condones any relationship where there is sex out of mairrage. If she came alone, I would let her stay in one of the bedrooms. Sorry if that's hard, that's just the way I feel.

I think the important distinction to understand, is many people use "grace" synonomously with "mercy", using "We are not under law but under grace" to mean "We will not be punished for our actions but God will overlook them, or at least be flexible and understanding with us." And I think that is a comfortable but erroneous way of seeing one's relationship with the Lord. (by the way, this also is not directed at Martyr or anyone in particular) Even mercy is not automatically granted, even to a redeemed Christian. Not until we come to the definite point of sadness in seeing how terrible any sin is, and the complete emphatic decision to turn around and discontinue that sin, will God pour out His mercy on us. Well, that's not entirely true, God's mercy often extends even farther, causing us to repent even when we don't want to... but it always works to enable us to live a new life, not just overlook the old. But "grace" is something entirely different. Grace is the VEHICLE by which we will overcome sin supernaturally, to the point where new life replaces the old life and sin is no more... It is the PUNCH in repentence, the ENERGY of the new life, the very "spiritual air" we breathe when we are walking in the ways of God and not the ways of our flesh...

encouraging, Suzanne!

I am impressed by the overwhelming strength and sensitivity with which you presented your exposition. Overly thorough, yet not boring or plastic, but rich in wisdom and truth...

The trinity doctrine gives us a definition of semantics to satisfy the question in our minds of "How can three be one?" That is fine. But it paints no picture for us to truly see how God works, nor does it answer all those other haunting questions that come up as we read scripture after scripture that reveal all sorts of other dimensions to the reality. There is a deeper truth to fully grasping this that can change the way you see how you ought to love yourself, your own children, your ability to manipulate the spirit realm, and many other things. Okay. Here begins: Jesus is God's arm. "Who has believed our message and to whom has the ARM of the LORD been revealed? ...He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering." -Isaiah 53:1,3 "Surely the ARM of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear..." -Isaiah 59:1 "He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so HIS OWN ARM worked salvation for him..." -Isaiah 59:16 God reached his arm down to earth to rescue us. Just as you can reach your arm down to the floor and make your two fingers "walk" on the floor, in a similar (though probably much more mysterious) way, He made his arm walk among us for a time. He knew no sin, and we were under the authority of sin, so he had to experience sin to to rescue us from it's power. He made his own arm to suffer the pain that we might not see the wrath we deserve. And for a time, his arm was "cut off" "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be CUT OFF and will have nothing." -Daniel 9:26 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?!" -Matthew 27:46 But after his suffering was complete, God retracted his arm back to Himself. "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at THE RIGHT HAND of God." -Mark 16:19 So Jesus is as the very ARM of God. Jesus is God's WORD. "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God." -John 1:1 Jesus is God's SON "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. -John 20:31 What do these three descriptions of Jesus all have in common: Arm, Word, Son? Answer: they are all EXTENSIONS of God. God REACHES down to earth. God SPEAKS forth His word. God SENDS his son. Jesus is the overflow of God's heart. "For out of the overflow of the heart, a man speaks." Like a son, he goes OUT where his Father sends Him, to do the work of His father. He is the Sent one, the messenger, the arm, the extension of God to man, the message of the Most High to His beloved, the divine part of God that is the connection to making US a part of God... He is where God is acting. Every time God communicates, acts, works, etc. that action is Jesus. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for by him all things were created Things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; All things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead... For God was pleased... through him, to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." -Colossians 1:15-20 Want me to talk now about the Holy Spirit? That will take a whole other exposition...

Okay, people I will do my best...

If you WANT to do what is right where you didn't before and you are ABLE to do what is right where you couldn't before You are experiencing grace...