Ginger5

I am glad I know a little more about the area now. Yep next week I will! I can't wait to go to this service.

That's just ridiculous.

I tried to go to a church service for people wth emotional hurts and got so lost and couldn't find the place. Drove once into NY I think lol and the second time I nearly got into an accident trying to avoid driving into NY. The roads so hard to turn around on when there are dividng concrete walls between them and also the roads that you turn off on as well!. well I have to say I made not of gone to church but God met me on the highway anyway lol. I called out to hm and he helped me get home. Will try again another time to go out there.

Wow. Pretty neat.

This is a thread that I started on a Catholic forum awhile back. (Before I was suspended this month, lol). http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=516624 I got exactly one response from another non-Catholic. James 2 is usually a really popular passage on Catholic forums because it gives them an opportunity to show Protestants the error of their ways, but something that includes side-by-side interpretations of the other passages that unpack Abraham along with an analysis of the semantic range of "justified"....I guess no one there wanted to interact with that. Maybe you'd like to, though. Some of what was quoted in the OP did sound a tad antinominan, so I would probably come back with Bible passages that include lots of "may genoita"....but that's me. Justification is certainly relevant to this topic, but I don't think James 2 is talking about justification in the sense that a man's works render him righteous (or such as he ought to be) or declare/pronounce him to be righteous (or such as he ought to be). Semantic domains are courtesy of BDAG, btw. Rather, Abraham is unpacked in James 2 in such a way that a person is shown/exhibited/evinced to be righteous by his works, working together with his faith in order to show it off. Now, that actually is fairly relevant to the OP, since the guy initially quoted doesn't seem to think these kinds of things matter at all. I think a three-part comparison of the NT passages relevant to Abraham demonstrates that his works did not render him righteous, nor did God pronounce him righteous on the basis of his works, but they aren't completely meaningless as James 2 demonstrates. James does express frustration at people who say these kinds of works don't matter at all, and I think the quote in the OP does demonstrate that kind of attitude to a certain extent. As it turns out, though, works matter....but not because they render you righteous or encourage God to pronounce you righteous, but because they demonstrate your righteousness. They exhibit it. This is one way in which "justify" (dih-kai-ah-oh) can be used. It's a less-traveled path as far as its semantic domains go, but this is one time when it goes there. It's not the first one you'd normally pick, but once you do the side-by-side with the other passages (Galatians 4 and Romans 3) that also unpack Abraham, it becomes clear that you have to go there in order to keep things consistent and avoid a contradiction of terms. Again though, with regard to the OP, works do matter and that's why. I think James would be frustrated with the guy. Newell. I like the guy, I know I've looked him up in the past and used some of his material in ways that were favorable to him. But I do think he gets a little bit antinomian here. This might help: "Justification" is vindication of that which is maintained to be true. In this case, it applies to two things being maintained as true. 1) Paul maintaines that believers in Jesus Christ are guiltless (righteous) before God, which is justified (its truth is vindicated) by their faith in Jesus' sacrificial atonement for the sin of those who believe in him. Through grace, sinners are justified (as righteous) by faith in Jesus Christ, and his atoning work on the cross (Ro 3:25). 2) James maintains that saving faith, as distinct from counterfeit faith, is justified (its truth is vindicated) by obedience to Jesus' commands (works). Faith is justified (shown to be true) by its works. "Justification" means to vindicate their truth. I agree with this. There is "works" "actions/obedience". Works is used in the sense of Jewish law works which does not save, actions means obedience. When we came to Christ, the first thing was "repent" which is actions to be saved. Yet we cannot do everything perfect, nor do enough, so it is by faith also. It is often taught in a confusing way, and once understood, how to apply it is a lifelong thing. Hi, Ginger, I would suggest a reversal of the order from "faith also". . . to "faith first and only," whose genuineness is then shown by obedience. Elearnor Yes that is good wording. Are you Catholic or Protestant? I go to both churches myself.

I'm sorry you are going through this and I agree with you completely about who is really dumb. Be confident and know God is on your side.

This is a thread that I started on a Catholic forum awhile back. (Before I was suspended this month, lol). http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=516624 I got exactly one response from another non-Catholic. James 2 is usually a really popular passage on Catholic forums because it gives them an opportunity to show Protestants the error of their ways, but something that includes side-by-side interpretations of the other passages that unpack Abraham along with an analysis of the semantic range of "justified"....I guess no one there wanted to interact with that. Maybe you'd like to, though. Some of what was quoted in the OP did sound a tad antinominan, so I would probably come back with Bible passages that include lots of "may genoita"....but that's me. Justification is certainly relevant to this topic, but I don't think James 2 is talking about justification in the sense that a man's works render him righteous (or such as he ought to be) or declare/pronounce him to be righteous (or such as he ought to be). Semantic domains are courtesy of BDAG, btw. Rather, Abraham is unpacked in James 2 in such a way that a person is shown/exhibited/evinced to be righteous by his works, working together with his faith in order to show it off. Now, that actually is fairly relevant to the OP, since the guy initially quoted doesn't seem to think these kinds of things matter at all. I think a three-part comparison of the NT passages relevant to Abraham demonstrates that his works did not render him righteous, nor did God pronounce him righteous on the basis of his works, but they aren't completely meaningless as James 2 demonstrates. James does express frustration at people who say these kinds of works don't matter at all, and I think the quote in the OP does demonstrate that kind of attitude to a certain extent. As it turns out, though, works matter....but not because they render you righteous or encourage God to pronounce you righteous, but because they demonstrate your righteousness. They exhibit it. This is one way in which "justify" (dih-kai-ah-oh) can be used. It's a less-traveled path as far as its semantic domains go, but this is one time when it goes there. It's not the first one you'd normally pick, but once you do the side-by-side with the other passages (Galatians 4 and Romans 3) that also unpack Abraham, it becomes clear that you have to go there in order to keep things consistent and avoid a contradiction of terms. Again though, with regard to the OP, works do matter and that's why. I think James would be frustrated with the guy. Newell. I like the guy, I know I've looked him up in the past and used some of his material in ways that were favorable to him. But I do think he gets a little bit antinomian here. This might help: "Justification" is vindication of that which is maintained to be true. In this case, it applies to two things being maintained as true. 1) Paul maintaines that believers in Jesus Christ are guiltless (righteous) before God, which is justified (its truth is vindicated) by their faith in Jesus' sacrificial atonement for the sin of those who believe in him. Through grace, sinners are justified (as righteous) by faith in Jesus Christ, and his atoning work on the cross (Ro 3:25). 2) James maintains that saving faith, as distinct from counterfeit faith, is justified (its truth is vindicated) by obedience to Jesus' commands (works). Faith is justified (shown to be true) by its works. "Justification" means to vindicate their truth. I agree with this. There is "works" "actions/obedience". Works is used in the sense of Jewish law works which does not save, actions means obedience. When we came to Christ, the first thing was "repent" which is actions to be saved. Yet we cannot do everything perfect, nor do enough, so it is by faith also. It is often taught in a confusing way, and once understood, how to apply it is a lifelong thing.

And do you consider that all these Christian denominations have agreement on "the standards of Jesus"? Oh Absolutely That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:9-11 Absolutely Dear One Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Or They're Not His And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mark 13:21-23 Praying~! Good post

I totally agree, Winsome. I watch the show, because it isn't all about Pat yet it does bother me. I have seen shows where Terri and Christie both disagreed with Pat over things. He's said a number of things over the years that has bothered me. Back in 98 and 99, I heard Pat say that the stock market was going to crash at the beginning of both of the next years'. I put a 1000 cans in my parent's basement with other things. but I love the testimonies, miracle stories, and the praying and the news at the beginning.

Our faith is a good conscience which is over our mistakes. If we intend to please God and do the right thing, and we know that, then our outward mistakes cannot compare with that, we have confidence before God. But if we don't remember that, we cannot fight for our faith. Faith plus actions is what I believe, but the actions are not perfect, its the intent of them before God. I see "fatih" as with actons, but it is not status accomplishments. Status accomplishments have to do with boasting. Faith in God is a grace and the actions are also a grace with them, but outward results are going to vary with people. I think God looks at the heart of a person from what the bible says.

The newage argue this all the time. but they have no objective standard. The Spirit is somewhat intutive to all of us, but it is not a replacement for the standards of Jesus.

I have no doubt that there is a God named Jesus that loves us. While I think there is more to the Adam and Eve story, I don't know what it would be, and I don't think anyone can know and I don't embrace evolution either. It has no bearing on my salvation or anyone elses. Its a devisive topic. Its right up there with the "do aliens exist". I don't know. It doesn't change the truth that we are sinners and that we need to come into allignment wtih God's word and have faith to live.

This bothered me. Its a hard subject but still I think that his response could have been not as "one option only". Many people would stay with their spouse.

It doesn't seem many of these churches are around still. I currently go to a large assembly of God though. Nice church.