churchmouse2

Thank you guys. Luke 7 is the idea that I was looking for. I got Paul's discourse of "..chief of sinners..." mixed up with this. I was correct in my thinking but I just wanted to make sure with God's Word. It has been a while since I read it. CM2

Sent Today, 10:05 AM (From Chtrls) Greetings Churchmouse. Your questions are very good and important for Christians to consider. I'll try to answer them with scripture and early Christian writings. 1) How do we double check our views with scripture when different teachers are telling us contradictory things about the same passage? Here's what scripture says: Matthew 18 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Note that the ultimate authority here is the Church. Where did the Church get this authority? From Jesus! Matt 16 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 2) You said that someone sent by Christ doesn't necessarily speak for Christ. I don't think that this is consistent with scripture. Luke 10 16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." You must have faith in the promises of Jesus and trust his Church to protect the Truth. John 20 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 1 John 4 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood. 1 Timothy 3 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. How can we follow the message of Jesus if we don't know what the message is? Jesus gave us a Church to lead us so we don't need to worry about the message. The Church is protecting it!! 3) Who is sent by Christ? We are all sent by Christ, but we don't all have the same role. If we contradict those who are to be our teachers we are not following Jesus. Notice here that Jesus contrasts the role of the Church leaders with those who will follow: John 17 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. Do you remember what the Christians at Antioch did in Acts 15 when they had a disagreement about circumcision? Did they just pray and study scripture, or did they consult the Church? Jesus loves us and wants us to be in full communion with his body, whcih is the Church. We cannot be in full communion with his body if we are fighting against his Church. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent Today, 12:04 PM (From cm2) Chtrls, I never asked anything even similar to the first question which you said I asked. Is this a characteristic flaw of your type of "reasoning"? This is the very type of dialogue people who attacked Jesus and Christians today would do in order to try to steer the conversation. Your first answer is probably something you dragged in from another thread you probably have on file and on your propagation list. I refuse to acknowledge such a disrespectful response; having putting words in my mouth. If you want to start a new topic, please start your own thread on that topic. You are distracting this one. The response to your number 2 fails to establish the fact that everything someone says whom Christ has sent is from God. That is what I was saying was the problem with the qualifier "necessarily." People love to tell half-truths and telling the truth most of the time in order to make their lies more believable. God tells us in His Word that there is no human walking the face of this earth or ever was or will be who is, was, will be perfect; that is anywhere on earth. Jesus, God the Son, son of man, was the only One. God tells us how wicked and deceitful the human heart is in His Word which tells everyone that you MUST double-check everything that you hear from anyone or anywhere with God's Word. He also says that our most righteous deeds are as filthy rags in His sight (Isa 64:6.) Remarkably, in your response here you have proven my point. When I read 1 Tim 3:15 which starts in the middle of a sentence I started at the beginning to get the meaning and context, vs 14. Guess what? Paul is telling Timothy to read his instructions in this letter (God's Word to us) so that he would know... not to go to any church or human and ask. On your point 3, you say, " If we contradict those who are to be our teachers we are not following Jesus." Well God tells us Christians to be shrewd and discerning and warns us that esp in these days there will be false teachers. But there have always been false teachers and pastors in the church. One Big example many people know of is when the church leadership, widely accepted as God's alleged representative, told the emporer to combat the invading Islamic Moors on the shoreline with boat loads of innocent little children holding men's swords. These church leaders said that God would grant them victory. The blood-soaked sands of the slaughter which followed clearly convinced the world of the fallacy of church leadership. God didn't direct that slaughter and if people had read His Word and not listened to humans they would have known that God would have never directed such an atrocity. Sinful men in high positions of the church did. Pastors and teachers I sit under in church welcome contradiction as it affords them an opportunity to go to God's Word for substantiation and clear up misunderstandings. I don't know where you go to church but I would look somewhere else. That sounds scary. If they come to you with some Kool-Aid to drink, run! Church leaders and teachers (any leaders or teachers) should welcome a contradictory dialogue. I certainly would be suspicious of the credibility of any who didn't. The should be ready with God's Word or willing to come back at a later time with it to support anything which they say or so. Humility is essential. Ask Jesus. There is so much evil which has permeated the ranks of Christian leadership. Self-professing gays are welcome as pastors in the pulpit, little boys and girls are being sexually assaulted, and so much more. We need to clean house or the Light will die and the salt become bitter. Chtrls, my time is very short hence the lack of scriptural addresses. As you so freely quoted God's Word I assumed that you knew of which verses I was referring, BUT if there is anything which I have said that you wish scriptural references I will find and give them. I know about where they all are and with my chain-ref and concordance can and will find them with pleasure. It will take a few days as I am VERY busy right now.. IHS, Chuchmouse2

Rusty, I'm with you. One Light that is just what I was thinking of: Ro 12: 1-2. When I am in public and I overhear someone exclaim the Lord's name in vain I shout out "Praise the Lord!" a few times. Yes, license is not the spiritual focus here.But for those who seek license: Gal 5:22 "But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Does anyone remember what U.S.S.R. stood for? It was the second largest republic in the world and it was operated from a socialist philosophy with communistic rule. I think that if you check you will see that the U. S. is a country operated from a capitalistic philosophy with democratic rule.

"A democracy which has lost God has no moral compass, No secure rock or anchor from which to weather the storms of time; The society thereof is ruled by moral decadence and shifting and/or strategically implemented political agendas, Destroying the fabric and fiber of any Constitutional origins (U.S.=God/Christianity), And rendering that society susceptible to the demise of civil strife/war and anarchy, Paving the way for such as dictatorial rule." jnb

...Is this what you are getting at Chesterton, or am I mistaken? Botz My point is that it is clear that Jesus started a Church, gave it leaders, gave these leaders authority, and told the rest of us to listen to them. But even if you concede these points you still might conclude that the Catholic Church is not the true representative of this authority. That's what we have painfully tried to tell you Chesterton! Hold to Christ alone in His Word alone and filter it through The Holy Spirit alone.... It is ok to let go of this world in order to gain the one promised... As each second passes all that was in that second is out of reach to all of us here under time! That means that the buildings, the statues, the etc. remain and the spiritual value is plucked up by Him Who cannot be deceived. Therefore I will imitate Him and leave the pretty buildings, statues, love of this world, etc. and keep the ordained order found only in His Word as my Way, Truth and Life.... no matter what men in finery say to me! Love, Steven I'm not following you. Do you agree that if we reject those sent by Jesus we are rejecting him?

I looked back through this whole thread and could not find a post by Kasey777. Are you sure you are looking in the right thread?

GLF, Thank you for your thoughts. You spent a good amount of time discussing how a woman should be treated. Interesting. After I became a new creation in Christ (1975) a new radio talk show came out in 1978 which I benefited from for decades. It was this up and coming pshyc (child and general, I believe) who gave me a lot of the knowledge I needed to be a good husband and eventually father. I had very, very little in me. I had the heart form God but the how is just generally and sporadically given, esp directly laying out the practical application thereof, in the Bible. Most people have this knowledge and take it for granted and are ignorant of such a need some. Dr. James Dobson on "Focus on the Family" as you probably guessed was the show. Eventually, I was listening to Dr. Charles Stanley in "In Touch", "The Art of Family Living" with John Nader, Dr. Chuck Swindoll on "Insight for Living", "The Minereth-Meyer Clinic" hour with Dr.s Minereth and Meyer, and many others with excellent expounders of God's Word with people like (Dr. Tony Evans, Robi Zacheriah, Dr. Stoll of Moody (now Cornerstone Univ), Chuck Colson, Dr. Vernon McGeee, Dr. David Jeremiah, and few others. I drove truck all day long (10-16 hr days) and had a lot of time and opportunity to listen. To these men I owe credit for much of my Biblical knowledge. Every Sunday before I went to Sunday school and sat under my pastor for a half hour sermon I had already enjoyed hours and hours of Christian sermons and teachings that week. If you brought this subject up for personal reasons please allow me to share from what I have learned Ephes 5:25 which says that the husband should give of himself for his wife even as Christ gave of himself (sacrificially unto death) for us and in vs. 21 of same as Paul leads immediately into one of the very few husband/wife relationship instruction sections, we are told to "submit to one another" , no exceptions, as Christians. Ephes 5: 22-end, Col: 3: 18-21, 1 Pt 3: 1-7, and 1 Tim 2: 9-15, and 1 Cor 7: 1-16 discuss husband/wife relationships in the NT and 1 Pt 3:7 implies that if a husband fails to respect his wife his prayers won't be answered.The demands are clearly greater for the husband, but if he complies, the wife will feel agope' loved, safe, and respected and freely submit in her role as helpmeet. I could only figure that you or a friend or relative must be struggling with these issues hence the reason for your taking a tangent into this subject. I hope I was of some help. Again, thank you for your input.

Thank you friends. I still have yet to see those plus signs you guys talked about. I wasn't even aware of them. probably a lot more out there aren't either. I am sorry if didn't hit that plus when i read your posts if it offended you that I didn't. Yeah, i can see the grade school popularity thing, in fact it was one of the reasons that I asked this question about reputation. It makes you think about the verses throughout God's Word about respecting persons, favoritism, and the like. It, green rectangle, is made so prominent that one can't ignore it.

Does anyone know who and how the reputation is established here on Worthy? Is there a publishable standard which allows for no personal abitrary influence?

God's Word discusses repsecting "persons" or showing partiality. It says that we should not do this: Lev 19:5, Prov 28:21, Prov 24:23, Job 13:10, Mal 2:9, 1 Tim 5:21, and Jas 2:4. Jesus was an example of this in all of His relating; with the Jewish-despised Samaitan woman at the well, with the Pharisees, with the wealthy "righteaous" man, unwilling to abandon his wealth, and in His parable of the Good Samaritan (the failures being represented by the behavior of a priest and lawyer (scribe) and the success and behavior we are to exemplify, tha of a lowly Samaritan.) Our position being saved by the blood of Jesus or not and if so there are a few POSITIONS given more respect due to their responsibility and accountability to God. How well do you think Christians today are or are not separating the person from the position in their rendering respect? In other words, do you think there is any favoritism in the body of Christ and if so what can we do to Quench it?

Denminations: Can anybody help me unbderstand why my post of last night in response to Kasey 777 was removed. As far as I know I violated nothing in the post. Everything which I said was backed up by God's Word. Is the moderation of our posts an arbitrary screener? Are there actually rules available which outline just what you can say and not?

JohnDB, "Here, here!!!" and "Amen and Amen!!!!" Reverse plagarism of God without a conscience.

Ovedya, Very good post. Plagiarism is both thievary and lying. Another person's spoken or written words which are worth repeating are worth giving the author credit for his creativity, ingenuity, and willingness to share it. I imagine that there are times when two total strangers in verbal and written context come up with the same idea at which time the point of origin (rough drafts, drafts, etc) for each may need to be discovered for authentication of each. Whether in the college arena or on the assembly line or in the streets; plagiarism is a matter of respect and attributable at all levels. You just give credit where it is due.

Ovedya, GREAT post!! Praise God!!! A lot of what you said is the basis for denominationalism or more correctly, the division of the body of Christ; my pet peeve. Self-focus puts the vicious advarsary in charge; God focus makes him run away leaving us in God's hands. But just maybe, as I believe you alluded, in order to reach the unsaved in this political arena there needs to be some Christians (possibly saved out of it) who can effectively impact that arena for God; like ChucK Colson. God is not willing that any should perish. Additionally, a Christian can impact the social or scientific or business or ? arenas in a way which will weaken statan's hold on them and make Christianity more appealing or credible or profiatble or believable or ?, while focused primarily upon God and on the light at the end of the tunnel of potential salvations as a result; although on the surface it might appear as just busyness in the affairs of the world. Your post was very good and right on. One other thought, and I may be guilty of this myself; there is the risk of being so Spiritually minded that we become ineffective for the Lord on earth where we are being kept for a while to be His ambassadors; a socio-polictiacal function, I believe.

Dear Waiting, In addition to the verses I gave you yesterday in Romans here are some from Corinthians where Paul more specifically addresses divisions in the church: 1 Cor 1:10 - 2:5; 3:1-23. Here one sees that Christians were dividing by claiming homage to human personages who brought the Message instead of to Christ Himself. Paul goes into careful detail to explain the danger of this and of the messengers presenting the Message in a manner which brought glory and honor to them instead of Christ. Some other areas of division Paul had to deal with are concerning the eating of meat offered to idols and circumcision and the practice of pigging out at the table of Communion. quote name='Waiting2BwithHim' timestamp='1313359929' post='1707517'] The Bible talks about Christians. The Bible doesn't talk about different religions. Where does all the different denominations of religion come from? How did they get started? If the Bible just talks about Christians then shouldn't we all just be Christians? Again thinking outside the box if this makes sense

Smalcald, To yours is all I have time to read on this post today and I think more than anyone before you you hit the nail on the head the best as an answer to the poster. Maybe we could replace the word "denomination" with division (of the original Body of Christ) as that is the context of the poster's question. Paul was even dealing with divisions of the early Body of Christ (church if you will) in I Cor, I believe, and elsewhere. I believe, as Paul described, that it is primarily a pride thing. On one hand you have people who just won't yield total submission and must have some control (starting with Eve and Adam and the fruit) and you others who must be the one in a position to control others and/or have an inflated image of themselves and abilities. Rather than getting into history lessons and legalistic debates of word's and definitions, the answer is more base and simple, I believe. Just look at the anwers thus far and see the pride eminating from the responses over who is right or wrong-which way is the "real" Way with all the subtile attacks and elaborate "qualifiers" and defenses. Pride. I am sorry but I forgot your username poster but please read Ro 14:1-15:7 and you'll see one of Paul's answers to church division.

Paul speaks of this topic. There is a vers which he wrote that I think this topic sums up. Does anyone know the address? My topical and concordance (eshaustive) reference books have failed me; or me them. Thanks.

There are so many corrections and additions to this I just copied and pasted from Word. I will do that from now on from the start. Denominationalism is a deterrent to the UNITY of the Body of Christ at large and a deterrent toward the accomplishment of the Great Commission. One of Jesus Christ's major concerns was the UNITY of BELIEVERS as He prepared to complete His mission here on earth for His first coming and leave us. Examine His long prayer (all of John ch 17) and although one may categorize His concerns as Himself, His disciples, and believers; all are believers and a close look will reveal one of His major concerns repeatedly called forth, if not the major one in this prayer, is UNITY, that all believers be one as He and God are One. I believe this is because He saw the future of satan's ploy of divide and conquer to weaken and disable the Body of Christ globally in order to thwart, if not destroy, the accomplishment of the Great Commission of Global evangelization which all Christians have been given by Christ (Acts 1:8) as He ascended to heaven. As one becomes familiar with God's Word, especially the NT, they quickly see that we Christians have been given a purpose for living here in this troublesome world and that we aren't here on earth just to enjoy ourselves, if at all ("deny yourselves, take up your cross". Lk 9:23) Sometimes I think some Christians think that a churches function should be all self-centered, maybe with a little given to missions but for selfish reasons. In Acts we see the early church living together in a community and sharing all they owned but it wasn't because their focus was not on fulfilling the Great Commission. Acts is all about them doing just that to the point of death. In their day, Christians lived in a very hostile world. Christians were hunted down, captured, and publically fed to lions and the women were stripped and wiped with a lion or jaguar sex scent and presented publically to be raped and mauled to death by the beast just for entertainment and there were many more horrible things from which Christians banned together. But with all that against them they still ventured out to promulgate the gospel even unto death to further the cause of the Great Commission. It can be claimed that this and that church accomplishes missions toward the fulfillment of the Great Commission. Great! I know this is true. But we are stewards of what God has given us, too; aren't we? We will give an accounting of how we managed His blessings and gifts. Consider all the consolidations of businesses going on out there and why it is happening. The expenses of overhead and operations can be greatly reduced and resources shared overall enabling a higher profit margin (potentially higher productivity, too) which in our present economy, compensates for a reduced outflow of product. When and if the economy picks up this consolidation will be in a position to be quickly more productive and profitable than any of the individual groups would have been alone, provided they hadn't gone under. The bottom line is that by consolidating resources and expenses the organization becomes more efficient and effective. By definition the church, Body of Christ, is an organization and all as stewards and agents towards a global mission we should be consolidating our resources and efforts. I say this in a business way as we Christians have a way of ignoring Christ's and the apostles spiritual concerns and admonitions towards UNITY and continue to fracture and break off from ourselves and form "new" churches ever increasing the burden of overall expenses to the Body of Christ. The church or Body of Christ (equivalent) is at war whether we like it or not 24/7 with a very powerful adversary who is mounting an ever increasing stronghold. The seriousness of the churches "losses" in its operations and missions is not lost jobs. It is lost lives to eternal suffrage and damnation; not of those already saved but of those not informed or decided yet for salvation. Satan wages war on us Christians to make us ineffective/injured in the war through harassments, oppressions, and obsessions but our soul is secure through Christ’s blood, even if just barely; but the concern here is those unsaved souls. There is a BIG hurdle in this consolidation or UNIFYING the Body of Christ. It will take the cooperation of local church leaders to shepherd their flocks toward this merger and one of the impending factors of consolidation is layoffs. Who is going to be "let go" as the result of a more efficient operation? The Body of Christ needs to and can deal with this dilemma differently than the world. Additionally, there should only be a temporary reduction in staff required. Christians are not supposed to be greedy and so they don't have to cut every penny right away and can reallocate duties (some new liaison positions would be needed), retrain, and whatever temporarily till the fruits of this incentive's labor are harvested- more people who are reached due to the greater ability to do so who become additional flock needing a shepherd. The Spirit would have to really be embraced by the congregation and some would probably rather die than change a dot or a dash, but what are we going to let us Christians motivate us to reunify? Our present course of a divided and weakening Body (evidenced by a national and world-wide moral demise or decay) is leading us right back to the persecution of the 1st century Christians. Is this what it will take to motivate us to break down our prideful and stubborn will and self-preoccupation and really love our brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of all the superfluous barriers we have put in the way? The war in which we are engaged, whether we are actively engaged or ignoring it or deluding ourselves with positive thoughts of denial, is not going away and the enemy is getting stronger and intends to take as many people we haven’t reached as possible. Since 2005, it is an imprisonable offence right next door in Canada if you share with someone what God says about homosexuality in earshot of anyone who might object. We must rally our Spiritual forces and going by scripture such as Matt 18:20 our gathering of numbers of believers incites the power of God and just as with the physical realm I am sure that there is an “economy” of the Spiritual (capitalized because it includes God, spelling checker) realm where consolidation reaps an efficiency and effectiveness of forces. On the local practical level how many churches are there in our area with nearly half of the available seating empty on any non-holiday/special Sunday? I know for a fact that there is a good percentage. Also, it appears that there are a few with just enough "congregation" to barely support the overhead, let alone able to extend something outward. I know of a couple, maybe three, where the pastor has to work a secular job and the worship and/or weekly meeting hours are odd; possibly to fit around his secular job. I know that it may also possibly be an issue of tithes and offerings or God's will in church division or pastoral calling or accommodating to membership availability or something else but please stay with me. How many churches have vans or buses sitting on their properties which are only used a few hours per week? Is it conceivable that this transportation and their heavy expense burdens including shelter be shared among several congregations? Would one (or more depending upon size of community) office for clerical support with shared office equipment, furnishings, maintenance, and utility expenses save any money? Money which could go to further the Kingdom? How about a NPO Christian CO-OP for procuring supplies, equipment, furnishings, books, music, and the like at a quantity/wholesale discount? With all the savings churches could allocate a little to their own needs like; one church may not be able to afford a Christian Psych in their budget but what about dividing that expense among several churches. Many people, Christians, need professional counseling and many times it is the ones without the means who need it the most. We Christians need to focus less on ourselves and our purpose for our lives. As cited above, Christ tells us that if we are to be one of His followers we need to deny ourselves (our particular opinions or ways of doing things?, Ro 14:1 - 15:7) and take up our cross (sacrifice.) In doing so we will find the UNITY among believers which Jesus hoped and prayed for in our lives and world.

Denominationalism is a deterant to the UNITY of the Body of Christ at large and a deterant toward the accomplishment of the Great Commission. One of Jesus Christ's major concerns was the UNITY of BELIEVERS as He prepared to complete His mission here on earth for His first coming and leave us. Examine His long prayer (all of John ch 17) and although He may catagorize His concerns as Himself, His desciples, and believers; all are believers and a close look will reveal one of His major concerns repeatedly called forth, if not the major one in this prayer, is UNITY, that all believers be one as He and God are One. I believe this is because He saw the future of satan's ploy of divide and conquer to weaken and disable the Body of Christ globally in order to thwart, if not destroy, the accomplishment of the Great Commission of Global evangelization which all Christians have been given by Christ (Acts 1:8) as He ascended to heaven. As one becomes familiar with God's Word, especially the NT, they quickly see that we Christians have been given a purpose for living here in this troublesome world and that we aren't here on earth just to enjoy ourselves, if at all ("deny yourselves, take up your cross". Lk 9:23) Sometimes I think some Christians think that a churches function should be all self-centered, maybe with a little given to missions but for selfish reasons. In Acts we see the early church living together in a community and sharing all they owned but it wasn't because their focus was not on fulfilling the Great Commission. Acts is all about them doing just that to the point of death. In their day Christians lived in a very hostile world. Christinas were hunted down, captured, and publically fed to lions and the women were stripped and wiped with a lion or jaguar sex scent and presented publically to be raped and mauled to death by the beast just for entertainment and there were many more horrible things from which Christians banned together. But with all that against them they still ventured out to promulgate the gospel even unto death to further the cause of the Great Commission. It can be claimed that this and that church accomplishes missions toward the fulfillment of the Great Commission. Great! I know this is true. But we are stewards of what God has given us, too; aren't we? We will give an accounting of how we managed His blessings and gifts. Consider all the consolidations of businesses going on out there and why it is happening. The expenses of overhead and operaions can be greatly reduced and resouces shared overall enabling a higher profit margin (potentially higher productivity, too) which in our present economy, compensates for a reduced outflow of product. When and if the economy picks up this consolidation will be in a position to be quickly more productive and profitable than any of the individual groups would have been alone, provided they hadn't gone under. The bottom line is that by consloidating resources and expenses the oragnization becomes more efficient and effective. By definition the church, Body of Christ, is an organization and all as stewards and agents towards a global mission we should be consloidating our resources and efforts. I say this in a business way as we Christians have a way of ignoring Christ's and the apostles spiritual concerns and admonishions towards UNITY and continue to fracture and break off from oursleves and form "new" churches ever increasing the burden of overall expenses to the Body of Christ. The church or Body of Christ (equivelant) is at war whether we like it or not 24/7 with a very powerful adversary who is mounting an ever increasing stronghold. The seriousness of the churches "loses" in its operations and missions is not lost jobs. It is lost lives to eternal suffrage and damnation. There is a BIG hurdle in this consolidation or UNIFYING the Body of Christ. It will take the cooperation of local church leaders to shepherd their flocks toward this merger and one of the impending factors of consolidation is layoffs. Who is going to be "let go" as the result of a more efficient operation? The Body of Christ needs to and can deal with this dilema differently than the world. Additionally, there should only be a temporary reduction in staff required. Chistians are not supposed to be greedy and so they don't have to cut every penny right a way and can reallocate duties (some new liason positions would be needed), retrain, and whatever temporatrily till the fruits of this incentive's labor are harvested- more people who are reached due to the greater ability to do so who become addtional flock needing a shepherd. On the local level how many churches are there in your area with nearly half of the available seating empty on any non-holiday/special Sunday? I know for a fact that in our community there is a good percentage with just enough "congregation" to barely support the overhead (I know of a couple, maybe three, where the pastor works a secular job and the worship and/or weekly meeting hours are odd; probably to fit around his secular job. I know that is also possibly an issue of tithes and offerings or God's will in church division or pastorial calling but please stay with me. How many churches have vans or buses sitting on their properties which are only used a few hours per week? Is it conceivable that this transportation and thier heavy expense burdens be shared among several congregations? Would one (or more depending upon size of community) office for clerical support with shared equipment, furnishings, maintainence, and utility expenses save any money? Money which could go to further the Kingdom? We Christians need to foucs less on ourselves and our purpose for our lives. As cited above, Christ tells us that if we are to be one of His followers we need to deny oursleves (our particular opinions or ways of doing things, Ro 14:1 - 15:7) and take up our cross (sacrafice.) In doing so we will find the UNITY which Jesus hoped and prayed for in our lives.

Please do forgive me if this has already been said. I tried to read all background on this thread but it would take days and days and days!!!!! There should be a limit on length so that comments aren't repeated due to the abhorable length precluding being properly informed of previous posts. I really would like to extend my respect to all previous posts by reading them but I just don't have the time. I thought maybe I should just leave this thread alone due to the unavailability of time to read all previous contributions but I have chosen to contribute anyway. I do agree with the literal interpretation of God's Word and its valuable application to our life today and tomorrow (2 Tim 3:16) but I would like to say that: ((1)) Even though it may appear to say one thing, it is a "Living" and "Active" Word (Heb 4:12) and remembering "the Word became flesh" in reference to Jesus in John 1 helps to grasp this. Another way is to think about how many times you have read a particular section of God's Word through the years and each time the spirit gave a different message to your heart so growth would continue, and the other thing is ((2)) Personally, I have found "Thompson's Chain Reference Bible" very helpful in ascertaining meaning of unclear verses or sections of God's Word. It gives you relative verses from the totality of God's Word so a deeper and fuller meaning and context may be derived.