douggg

Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB95) 24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city AND THE SANCTUARY. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” The Hebrew in verse 27 says he will affirm the covenant with the rabbis. Everywhere else "the covenant" is spoken of in Daniel it refers to what it occasionally expresses as the holy covenant" the Law of Moses. Jesus indeed lived by and fulfilled the Mosaic covenant, but he made no affirmation of it. He ushered in the New Covenant in his own blood. The "rabbis" rejected him and the New Covenant. Jesus fulfilled the Levitical sacrificial system which was prophetic of his own sacrifice, but it's end did not come for another 40 years. Now, my friend, this "he" is the son of perdition who will purport to be the promised messiah and the Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah will accept this counterfeit as the genuine article. He will affirm the Old Covenant rebuild the temple and the Levitical sacrificial system will again be in place until the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, 1290 days from the end of human history: Daniel 12:11-12 (NASB95) 11 “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! Verse 11 is counting back from the end. Verse 12 is counting forward from the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel. For all your cutesy chart's beauty, the numbers are WRONG! The first thing you must come to realize is that, on the Jewish calendar, there's no such thing as a 12-month year. Secondly, the length of time in days per month averages to 29.5 days / month. There's a REASON why the time periods are said three different ways! Forty-two months, which are literally "moonths" in the sense that they are based on the lunar cycle, would work out to 42 months x 29.5 days / month = 1,239 days! (The Jewish calendar basically has alternating months of 29 days and 30 days.) A time, times, and half a time working on the yearly average of 365.2422 days / year (and assuming that a "time" is a yearly "cycle") would be 365.2422 days / year * 3.5 years = 1,278 days! And of course, both of these are different than the 1,260 days (or the 1,290 days or the 1,335 days). I believe that these values are given PRECISELY as they should be understood, and that they do NOT automatically mean the same time period! It's not as clear-cut as you would like. Hi Roy, I don't think the current Jewish calendar reflects the calendar used back at the time of the Mt. Sinai covenant. A lunar cycle means that they actually went out and observed the moon. Within the system of numbering the days prophecy wise, the year is made up of two half's of 1260 days each. The 42 months and the time times and half times are not as precise compared to 1260 days. The 42 months and the time times and half times, both end the day that Jesus returns. So those periods are both in the second half of the 7 years. So John's nice chart should only show the 42 months and time times and half times on the right side of the exact mid point. Doug

Exactly? Not exactly, because if so we could mark that day on our calendar. The question becomes what is meant by last day?. On the 6 days = 6000 years theory, each 1000 years being a day. At the last day would be right before the last day, the 1000 year reign of Christ begins. That is a general timeframe. Since the rapture has not taken place, the window is between now and the day that Jesus returns. Messiah has it roots in "anointed". The person we call the Antichrist goes through 4 major stages in his career as it progresses. Little horn politician stage; then false King Messiah to the Jews stage; then man of sin stage; then Antichrist-beast stage. So what he professes to be depends upon what stage he is in. During his man of sin stage - he is not claiming to be a messiah, but God. When as the man of sin, he is killed, comes back to life to his Antichrist-beast stage, then it is very likely that he will claim to be a eternal life messiah. That is, if people believe in him as God, and that he overcame death - they would have eternal life. Doug

Hi John, regarding your chart, the 1290 days and 1335 days, both are tied to the setting up of the AOD, in Daniel 12. Where you have the 1290 days counting back (arrow to the left), I think you should have had as the 1335 days. That would give the day on the 7 years timeline of when the AOD will be setup to be worshiped (day 1185). You have the AOD setup to be worshiped on the first day of the 7years. From the day on the timeline which the AOD is setup to be worshiped (day 1185), place the 1290 days arrow to the right. Which on that day (day 2475), the heavens will part and the world will see Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand. The Rapture takes place on an unknown day. So we cannot put arrows pointing to it. Doug

Whoa there Marv. Nothing in the text indicates that the covenant exists for 7 years. The covenant is an existing covenant which is confirmed. That means that covenant had to have been in place and active before the 7 began. Originally, I thought it had to be the New Covenant of the Last Supper, however in another post Retrobyter offered up the Davidic covenant, which seems to fit the bill better, having already been in place. Which covenant established the daily sacrifice? It was the Mt. Sinai covenant. The Mt. Sinai covenant will be confirmed. Here is the 7 years in the text. The Antichrist, false King Messiah, will oversee the commemorative reading of Moses's instructions, at God's direction, to go in and possess the land. The reading will be from the temple mount, which the Jews interpret as being the place of God's choosing. Deuteronomy 31: 7And Moses called unto Joshua, and said unto him in the sight of all Israel, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou must go with this people unto the land which the LORD hath sworn unto their fathers to give them; and thou shalt cause them to inherit it. 8And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed. 9And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel. 10And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles, 11When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. 12Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

Ancient Israel of Jesus' day fits exactly. Revelation is about the things that SOON come to pass. No matter how ya looks at it, 2000 years AIN'T soon. Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about the defeat of the Scythians. While John uses the Ezekiel prophecy as a figure of how the men of the last days will attack the Church, that occurs after the millennium. Where is 7 years mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39? (it isn't) Parts of Revelation did come to pass soon - regarding the persecution of the churches which took place back in John's day. The seven years is in Ezekiel 39, between the two feasts. The feast in Ezekiel 39:4 is on Gog's army. The feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast. The little horn will arrive in Israel, concurrent with God's supernatural destruction of Gog/Magog. The Jews will think that the little horn is their perceived King Messiah, thinking that God has paved the way for him and the messianic era by destroying all their enemies. The little horn thus becomes the Antichrist false King Messiah. I would like for you to consider this about Jesus. before the resurrection - was ultimately rejected by the Jews as their King Messiah, the great promised king, because he came in his Father's name. after the resurrection - explained to the disciples that he had to die for the sins of mankind, opening their understanding of the scriptures, and the gospel of salvation from their sins for eternal life. Luke 24:44-47. Now the parallel of the Antichrist person as he progresses in his career as his "Antichrist" false King Messiah stage, then his man of sin stage, and finally at his Antichrist-beast stage, false eternal life messiah. First half of the 7 years Antichrist false King Messiah stage - before he is revealed as the man of sin - will be embraced by the Jews as their King Messiah (in lieu of Jesus the true King Messiah). Middle of the 7 years Man of Sin stage - goes into the temple and declares that he is God - declares in his own name (coming in his own name) that he is God... after the Jews have embraced him for over 3 years as their King Messiah. They drop him like a hot potato as their King Messiah. Second half of the 7 years Antichrist-beast stage, false eternal life messiah (Revelation 13) - is resurrected comeback to life - appears to the world to have overcome death; and the false gospel is that all who believe in him will have eternal life. The false prophet has the world make an image of him to be worshiped. Doug Well, doug, you are adding the "stages" in there. I don't believe that's scriptural. The beast is the final kingdom that rises after the devil is cast down. The beast is given a mouth (devil-worshipping "dear leader") and only gets 42 months. (Rev 13) The stages are there, but they are not spelled out to be stages. To illustrate this point, for example, John F. Kennedy was President of the United States. But he did not start out as President. He went through the PT 109 commander stage, then the Senator stage, then the President stage. Doug

Ancient Israel of Jesus' day fits exactly. Revelation is about the things that SOON come to pass. No matter how ya looks at it, 2000 years AIN'T soon. Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about the defeat of the Scythians. While John uses the Ezekiel prophecy as a figure of how the men of the last days will attack the Church, that occurs after the millennium. Where is 7 years mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39? (it isn't) Parts of Revelation did come to pass soon - regarding the persecution of the churches which took place back in John's day. The seven years is in Ezekiel 39, between the two feasts. The feast in Ezekiel 39:4 is on Gog's army. The feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast. The little horn will arrive in Israel, concurrent with God's supernatural destruction of Gog/Magog. The Jews will think that the little horn is their perceived King Messiah, thinking that God has paved the way for him and the messianic era by destroying all their enemies. The little horn thus becomes the Antichrist false King Messiah. I would like for you to consider this about Jesus. before the resurrection - was ultimately rejected by the Jews as their King Messiah, the great promised king, because he came in his Father's name. after the resurrection - explained to the disciples that he had to die for the sins of mankind, opening their understanding of the scriptures, and the gospel of salvation from their sins for eternal life. Luke 24:44-47. Now the parallel of the Antichrist person as he progresses in his career as his "Antichrist" false King Messiah stage, then his man of sin stage, and finally at his Antichrist-beast stage, false eternal life messiah. First half of the 7 years Antichrist false King Messiah stage - before he is revealed as the man of sin - will be embraced by the Jews as their King Messiah (in lieu of Jesus the true King Messiah). Middle of the 7 years Man of Sin stage - goes into the temple and declares that he is God - declares in his own name (coming in his own name) that he is God... after the Jews have embraced him for over 3 years as their King Messiah. They drop him like a hot potato as their King Messiah. Second half of the 7 years Antichrist-beast stage, false eternal life messiah (Revelation 13) - is resurrected comeback to life - appears to the world to have overcome death; and the false gospel is that all who believe in him will have eternal life. The false prophet has the world make an image of him to be worshiped. Doug

If you are going to interpret the beast "ascending out of the bottomless pit" as being the RCC. First, you will have to establish that the RCC went into the bottomless pit before the time of John first century. The RCC did not exist at the time. Doug Again, you apply more of the same type of time constraints here as well. You also seem to interpret the symbols in a more literal sense than I do. For example, the beast rising up out of the sea has seven heads, and one of them receives a deadly head wound. You assume, like many others, that this head is a man, but I believe the answer is given in Daniel chapters 2 & 7, which speaks of the revival of the Roman Empire at the time of the end, and when Christ returns. Naturally, nations and Empires have men as leaders, but I just don't buy into those men being literal heads of a seven headed beast coming up out of the sea. It just seems so ridiculous to me, especially when the same teachers that are teaching this also recognize that the Roman Empire will be revived in the end. So why can't they see it? I guess they just can't see the forest for the trees. By the way, since you believe the antichrist is also the beast, I'd like to see you state your case as to why you believe this, while using Scripture, of course, and not false assumptions and misconceptions. Furthermore, you also might want to show why you believe the antichrist is a single man that will come during the time of the end. I've often wondered how so many have reached this conclusion. But I gotta tell ya, I believe it has much to do with 2 Tim. 4:1-4. The beast in the bottomless pit is the disembodied spirit of some ancient individual, who died long ago. The Antichrist man is an end times person. Two separate distinct individuals.... until the Antichrist in his man of sin stage is killed and comes back to life. When the man of sin comes back to life, he will be possessed by the disembodied spirit of the ancient individual, to become the Antichrist-beast who rules for the final 42 months of the seven years. The heads represent kings, not kingdoms. The wounded head represents one of the kings who will be mortally wounded. Regarding the Antichrist being a single person, do you understand the difference between the King Messiah concept and the save-us-from-our-sins Messiah concept? It is imperative to know the difference because Jesus prophesied that to Nicodemus that they the Jews would accept another (in lieu of himself). The another is the Antichrist, but a person has to know what "the messiah" means to the Jews that they would accept the another. Their idea of the messiah is limited to the King Messiah concept. Doug

Revelation 13 - 42 months left in the 7 years Revelation 12 - 7 years left in the 7 years Revelation 17 - at the time of John first century The status of the crowns on the horns and heads is substantially different in each of those chapters. I think you misunderstood me regarding the beast "was and is not" in Revelation 17:8 first part. That beast was dead and in the bottomless pit before John received revelation, first century. This does not effect my view as it does yours, for I don't put the same time constraints on this prophecy as you do. This prophecy that John was given was highly symbolic, and nothing in it after the 3rd chapter suggests that John would be a witness to such things mentioned, as in him seeing the fulfillments himself. He was told to write these things down, but never was he told that he would see these things play out. Furthermore, I highly doubt John had any understanding of the future things that he was told to write about whatsoever. I am not saying that John saw the fulfillment's. He did not see the beast die and go into the bottomless pit. He was told by the angel, that's where the beast is. The status of the beast having no crowns on either the heads nor horns,nor having a wounded head, in Revelation 17 is pinned to 6th king ruling at the time, which would have been 1st century. The beast was already in the bottomless pit at the time of the 6th king, the "one is" king of Revelation 17:10. Which means the beast already being in the bottomless pit cannot be the Pope, nor the RCC, because neither existed at the time of the 1st century. Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 13 - 42 months left in the 7 years Revelation 12 - 7 years left in the 7 years Revelation 17 - at the time of John first century The status of the crowns on the horns and heads is substantially different in each of those chapters. I think you misunderstood me regarding the beast "was and is not" in Revelation 17:8 first part. That beast was dead and in the bottomless pit before John received revelation, first century. If you are going to interpret the beast "ascending out of the bottomless pit" as being the RCC. First, you will have to establish that the RCC went into the bottomless pit before the time of John first century. The RCC did not exist at the time. Doug

The question is who is the harlot riding the beast and sitting on many waters. Israel and Jerusalem in the passages you refer to doesn't fit that requirement. Israel has not been a nation for 2000 years until 1948. And Jerusalem has not been it's capital until 1967. The RCC which has been active in persecuting Christians over that 2000 year period fits the description of the whore when the facts are examined. Ezekiel 38/39 eliminates that the whore is Israel. God defends Israel in the attack of God/Magog. And later at the end of the 7 years, the Lord returns to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, from the other nations. Doug

In Revelation 17, the beast is not coming out of the sea (or earth). Since the beast is not coming out of the sea or earth in Revelation 17, the dual representation found in Daniel 7 of the beast being both a king and the fourth kingdom, does not apply in this particular chapter, like it does in Revelation 13. The beast in Revelation 17 is a person. In this particular chapter, the beast being scarlet colored matches better with the red dragon (Satan) in Revelation 12, but since Satan is not in the bottomless pit, it cannot be directly Satan himself as the beast. So whoever the beast is, he was doing Satan's bidding back in his day when he was alive. Here is the key verse of Revelation 17. The verse can be broken down into two parts. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. In the first part of Revelation 17:8, the beast "was and is not" which indicates that he once was alive but is no longer alive at the time of John. The beast is currently in the bottomless pit. He was an ancient individual. The second part of Revelation 17:8 makes the connection between the end times Antichrist person (the wounded head) and the ancient person. They are two separate individuals which will unify into the Antichrist-beast of the last 42 months of the 7 years. The world will wonder seeing the beast (outwardly, what they will observe is the slain and recovered man of sin) was (alive), is not (he dies), and yet is (he lives). Internally to the slain and recovered man of sin, the beast as a disembodied spirit will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the slain recovered man of sin. In this particular chapter, the description of the beast is Satan. So the woman is doing Satan's bidding. Which if by the inscription on the woman's head - Mystery Babylon - it take us all the way back to the tower of Babel. And the beast currently in the bottomless pit is Nimrod, imo. I could be wrong, it could be someone else. I do agree with you that the whore is probably the RCC as the organization and the city of Rome that the ten kings will destroy. But I would not say that the whore exclusively only represents the RCC, but also the whore goes all the way back to Babel and before the RCC - because in Revelation 18 it says, 18:24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Hi Doug, You might want to read the verses of Scripture that actually mention antichrist in 1 and 2 John. This subject is probably the longest running myth in eschotology. All unbelievers have the spirit of antichrist. John never made mention of a single antichrist man or individual that would come at the time of the end. This myth began a long, long time ago. One of the reformers accused the pope of being the antichrist, but here we are today, still playing the pin the tail on the antichrist game and jumping from one conclusion to the next. There will certainly come a time when the son of perdition or man of sin comes, but this is not necessarily what John ment when he coined the term antichrist. There are still plenty of other possibilities that remain, but we are too busy scratching our itching ears to see how ridiculous it really is. And now we are nearing to the time of the end, and the newest belief is that the antichrist is now the beast as well. Yet some people don't believe the beast is a man. Some think it is a system, while others think it's a global government. That's why I don't call the son of perdition the antichrist. There's just too many false assumptions, misconceptions and myths being spread around, which only leads to more confusion. Hi RollingThunder, I am very familiar with what John had to say about antichrist who shall come and antichrists of his day. The antichrists of his day were those of the Christian congregations who left those congregations to deny that Jesus is the christ. "Christ" is rooted in "anointed", which the kings and priests of Israel were anointed's. The specific anointed - the promised great king of Israel to sit on David's throne is who the Jews and the disciples before the resurrection are (were in the case of the disciples) looking for is "the" messiah. Jesus told Nicodemus that they the Jews would accept another instead of himself. Since Jesus spoke to Nicodemus before the resurrection (only after which did the disciples understand he was the save-us-from-our-sins messiah Luke 24:44-46), he was referring to the King Messiah concept. The Antichrist that John said was to come (1John2:18) will be a false King Messiah, who the Jews will accept for approximately 3 years, 3 months before he makes a deal with Satan who enters him and subsequently will do the deed of going into the temple and declares himself to be God. For which God has him slain, Ezekiel 28:2-10. And kicked out of the grave in Isaiah 14:19-20. The person who Christians speak of in prophecy discussions as the Antichrist does not start out as the Antichrist, because technically speaking the Antichrist does not fill that role until the Jews embrace him as their King Messiah - going back to what Jesus told Nicodemus. When the Antichrist goes into the temple to reveal himself as the man of sin, the son of perdition, the Jews will drop him as their perceived King Messiah like a hot potato. The word "Antichrist" is missing in Revelation. But he, himself, is there at the different stages of his career. Little horn stage - he will be the seventh king of the seven kings of Revelation 17. Before the 7 years begin. Antichrist stage - false King Messiah, the rider on the white horse of Revelation 6. The first 3 years 3 months of the 7 years. Man of sin stage - the mortally wounded head of Revelation 13. Perhaps for a week. Antichrist-beast stage - the recovered man of sin, who will be possessed by the beast (spirit) ascending from the bottomless pit stage, as the eighth king of Revelation 17. Last 42 months of the 7 years. Anti - meaning both "in lieu of" and "against". In the Antichrist stage, the person will be "in lieu of" Jesus the real King Messiah. In the Antichrist-beast stage, his final stage, the person to be possessed by the beast spirit - currently in the bottomless pit - will be overtly "against" Jesus. Doug I'm not going to waste much time trying to hash this out, but wow, you are really tangled up in these assumptions/misconceptions. You have taken this much farther than anyone else I've ever seen before. I don't dwell on this too much, but I'll tell you what I believe the beast is in a nutshell. This is my personal theory and opinion, so don't go trying to read up on it somewhere else, because you won't find it. The dragon is Satan's kingdom of darkness that has reigned over the God's people. It has seven heads, which are empires that run in succession. Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece were before John's time, and Rome was the one that was, in John's day. Assyria and Egypt reigned before Israel became a mighty Holy nation. Then after Israel had her moment of glory, Daniel came along. As a young lad, he saw the rise of what became known in his prophecy, as the first beast (Babylon). Rome was Daniel's fourth beast, which was the dragons sixth head. It had two legs, the Roman Empire, then the so-called Holy Roman Empire after a short space of time. This fourth beast and/or sixth head was also the one that suffered the fatal head wound of a sword and came back to life again. According to Daniel Chapter 7, this same beast will devour the whole earth, tread it down and break it into pieces, and it will be reigning again when Christ returns. At that time, it will be the seventh head. But since it has two feet, the second foot will also be considered an eighth, which, like the Holy Roman Empire arose after the Imperial Roman Empire suffered the fatal head wound, another religious beast will rise up again out of the same kingdom. Except this time, there will be no space or gap of time in between, for it will come up in its presence or during the same time. We are waiting for the full revival or resurrection of Daniel's fourth beast, the European Union, and I believe the Catholic so-called church will be the eighth and the pope will be the false prophet. The Romans hijacked the church, but as Jesus said, the gates of hell would not prevail against it. A little horn will rise up among ten nations in Europe. These will rise and become strong after America crumbles and God crushes the Russian/Arab alliance when they come to take a spoil in Israel (Ezek.38). By now you must be wondering what the fatal head wound from the sword was? You must remember, that it was the Romans that crucified our Lord. They are also responible for killing His disciples who brought us the New Testament. It is very possible, too, that this also could be what John meant when he said that antichrist would come. But the Romans took control over God's Word afterward, which plunged the world into the dark ages. But God's Word is the sword of the spirit that is so powerful that they could never contain it. They used it to keep the people in bondage, but it ended up cutting their kingdom into pieces. It was the reformation that cut and divided them into over a hundred different sects and denominations. I know, the so-called prophecy experts are teaching that the antichrist will suffer the fatal head wound and come back to life after three days, BALONEY. If you believe that, maybe you might also be interested in buying some swamp land in Florida? Hi Rollinthunder, you wrote..."The dragon is Satan's kingdom of darkness." The bible says the dragon is Satan himself. Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast outwith him. There are no multiple kingdoms pertaining to the 7 kings of Revelation 17. They are all of the 4th empire, the Roman Empire. Here are those stages of the Antichrist's career again. Little horn stage - he will be the seventh king of the seven kings of Revelation 17. Before the 7 years begin. Antichrist stage - false King Messiah, the rider on the white horse of Revelation 6. The first 3 years 3 months of the 7 years. Man of sin stage - the mortally wounded head of Revelation 13. Perhaps for a week. Antichrist-beast stage - the recovered man of sin, who will be possessed by the beast (spirit) ascending from the bottomless pit stage, as the eighth king of Revelation 17. Last 42 months of the 7 years. In the Little horn stage - he will be the seventh king of the seven kings of Revelation 17. Before the 7 years begin. The six kings of the Roman Empire were: King 1 - Julius Caesar King 2 - Augustus Caesar King 3 - Tiberius King 4 - Caligula King 5 - Claudius King 6 - Nero, ruling at the time of John King #7 - will be the end times little horn of Daniel 7, who comes up among ten kings of the end times Roman Empire... prior to the 7 years beginning. All of the 7 kings are of the Julio-Claudian bloodline. In Revelation 17:3, the heads do not have their crowns because king #7 is end-times. In Revelation 12:3, the heads have their crowns because entering the 7 years (Revelation 12:6+12:14), the little horn will have come to power. In Revelation 13:1, the heads no longer have their crowns because king #7 will have been killed, ending the time of the 7 kings. During the last 42 months of Revelation 13, the eighth king will rule. Doug

Hi Doug, You might want to read the verses of Scripture that actually mention antichrist in 1 and 2 John. This subject is probably the longest running myth in eschotology. All unbelievers have the spirit of antichrist. John never made mention of a single antichrist man or individual that would come at the time of the end. This myth began a long, long time ago. One of the reformers accused the pope of being the antichrist, but here we are today, still playing the pin the tail on the antichrist game and jumping from one conclusion to the next. There will certainly come a time when the son of perdition or man of sin comes, but this is not necessarily what John ment when he coined the term antichrist. There are still plenty of other possibilities that remain, but we are too busy scratching our itching ears to see how ridiculous it really is. And now we are nearing to the time of the end, and the newest belief is that the antichrist is now the beast as well. Yet some people don't believe the beast is a man. Some think it is a system, while others think it's a global government. That's why I don't call the son of perdition the antichrist. There's just too many false assumptions, misconceptions and myths being spread around, which only leads to more confusion. Hi RollingThunder, I am very familiar with what John had to say about antichrist who shall come and antichrists of his day. The antichrists of his day were those of the Christian congregations who left those congregations to deny that Jesus is the christ. "Christ" is rooted in "anointed", which the kings and priests of Israel were anointed's. The specific anointed - the promised great king of Israel to sit on David's throne is who the Jews and the disciples before the resurrection are (were in the case of the disciples) looking for is "the" messiah. Jesus told Nicodemus that they the Jews would accept another instead of himself. Since Jesus spoke to Nicodemus before the resurrection (only after which did the disciples understand he was the save-us-from-our-sins messiah Luke 24:44-46), he was referring to the King Messiah concept. The Antichrist that John said was to come (1John2:18) will be a false King Messiah, who the Jews will accept for approximately 3 years, 3 months before he makes a deal with Satan who enters him and subsequently will do the deed of going into the temple and declares himself to be God. For which God has him slain, Ezekiel 28:2-10. And kicked out of the grave in Isaiah 14:19-20. The person who Christians speak of in prophecy discussions as the Antichrist does not start out as the Antichrist, because technically speaking the Antichrist does not fill that role until the Jews embrace him as their King Messiah - going back to what Jesus told Nicodemus. When the Antichrist goes into the temple to reveal himself as the man of sin, the son of perdition, the Jews will drop him as their perceived King Messiah like a hot potato. The word "Antichrist" is missing in Revelation. But he, himself, is there at the different stages of his career. Little horn stage - he will be the seventh king of the seven kings of Revelation 17. Before the 7 years begin. Antichrist stage - false King Messiah, the rider on the white horse of Revelation 6. The first 3 years 3 months of the 7 years. Man of sin stage - the mortally wounded head of Revelation 13. Perhaps for a week. Antichrist-beast stage - the recovered man of sin, who will be possessed by the beast (spirit) ascending from the bottomless pit stage, as the eighth king of Revelation 17. Last 42 months of the 7 years. Anti - meaning both "in lieu of" and "against". In the Antichrist stage, the person will be "in lieu of" Jesus the real King Messiah. In the Antichrist-beast stage, his final stage, the person to be possessed by the beast spirit - currently in the bottomless pit - will be overtly "against" Jesus. Doug

The person we refer to as the Antichrist in the general sense, progresses in his time. He does not start out as the Antichrist, false King Messiah. Here is his progression. He comes on the scene as the little horn (European politician), then becomes the Antichrist (false King Messiah, in lieu of Jesus), then reveals himself as the man of sin (no longer the Antichrist because the Jews reject him at that point), then transforms into the Antichrist beast (Antichrist beast because he will be totally against Jesus and will curse God and those in heaven). If a person doesn't recognize that progression, they will be confused in interpreting the end times prophecies in the old testament and new testament. Doug

Hi Roy, "distinguishable" as three persons, not separate. One God, but not simplistically one. Jesus said I and my Father are one, John 10:30. Yet Jesus said the Father is greater than he, John 10:28. So we have to resolve that and other issues. God is not a man, that He should lie, Numbers 23:19. Yet, Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God" , and Jesus didn't rebuke him. Jesus is the first borne of all creation, yet he was not born until 4000 years after Adam, Colossians 1:15. Yet Jesus made the world and everything in it. Jesus is the Son of God. Yet, he is the Son of Man. Okay, Jesus said he came forth from the Father, and not the other way around.... so that is why the Father is greater than he. Jesus was born into this world through Mary, but he did not say he came forth from Mary. So the coming forth from the Father clearly identifies him as God. Before there was anything of creation, there was only God, not even a empty space. Within Himself, being Spirit, He set a boundary for creation. Thus, God is omnipresent throughout creation. Into the set boundary for creation, God came forth from Himself, having attributes that creation, by His design, could perceive. The Lord of Heaven. The first born of all creation, meaning God coming forth from Himself was the first act of Creation. That's who Jesus, before being born of Mary, is. The Lord of Heaven. God is not a man. So the question is "what" is man? Man is a created spirit being because we continue to exist after the body dies. Jesus was not a created spirit being. He was/is/is to come God. This is difficult for some to comprehend, because we go by the eye, and the eye can not see us as created spirit beings. But that is "what" we are, not who we are. "Who" we are, our uniqueness as individuals, is registered as our souls. Which after death, a person retains their own individual identity. Us a created spirit being have a physical human body have a soul, free will of our own Jesus God, the creator had a physical human body had a soul, free will of his own Jesus got his humanity from Mary, yet being God before entering this world, and existing before creation coming forth from the Father, One God, as the Son of God, even the demons knew who he was. Doug

Though I am not wanting to argue the same over and over again, how it is read in Greek is not "came" or "came" but "ones-coming". The Greek word is "erchomenoi". I agree with you. It doesn't matter if it is came or come. It is still future. John is being a shown a spectacle of events in the scroll that haven't happened. The text of Revelation is full of words, which outside of the fact that John was taken to heaven and shown future events presented to him spectacle to spectacle, would be past in normal conversation. For example Revelation 14:4... speaking of the 144,000, "Theses were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." The 144,000 have not yet been sealed, yet it says "were redeemed". It doesn't say "shall be redeemed" because Revelation places John seeing events unfold before him, spectacle to spectacle. Another example in Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation.... And English major would have said "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation. Revelation has to be read as though the reader is there with John. Doug

Hi Bold Believer, if Jesus is the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6:2, the first seal, then who is the Lamb in the sixth seal? Are you aware of the difference between "King Messiah" that the Jews (Judaism) believe in, and "Save-Us-From-Ours-Sins Messiah" that Christians believe in? The understanding of all the end-times prophecies is hinged on understanding the difference in those two messiah concepts. Doug