ENOCH2010

OR...it could mean exactly what God described. There's a massive invasion of Israel and if God doesn't step in, no one will survive. Jen That is not what was quoted... It says that no flesh would survive (all would die), BUT because of the elect (Israel) those days will be shortened. When the armies attack Israel; Israel is already in the wilderness being protected, no harm will come upon them. But there will be a major invasion of Israel (Ezk 38-39), in which God kills 5/6's of these armies, and those of Israel will be employed for seven months to bury the bodies, they also will burn the weapons of war for 7 years. Hmm. In Christ Montana Marv Joel 2: 17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? 18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Where is the porch and alter?

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture In the 5th seal, the martyrs of Jesus (dead in Christ) are asking for justice - to be avenged. We know that when the "rapture" occurs, the bodies of the dead in Christ come out of graves and we are all changed and caught up. We are waiting for what Paul described in 1 Cor 15 - to be clothed with immortality. In the 5th seal, it says that white robes are given to them. Those white robes are the "clothes of immortality" that are given to the bride at the time of the "rapture". The dead in Christ do not receive them without the living in Christ which is why the entire Bride, to that moment in time, is standing before the throne wearing white robes in Rev 7. Side note: The martyrs who ask the question in the 5th seal are told MORE MARTYRS must occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal when the white robes are given, are those who are beheaded by the beast during the 7th seal and who are resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the millennium according to Rev 20. Where did you get that the white robes were the "clothes of immortality"? Been keeping up with the thread & I still don't see how you are coming up with what you been saying. I do not believe God separates the believers by a rapture. Since you think there is a resurrection at the time of a rapture, are those raptured the ones that rule & reign with Christ? I don't think so because that is what is said about those that are in the first resurrection of Rev 20. So, which is it? That's the trouble with all the rapture theories,the only possible rapture I can find in the Bible is called the second coming .It has a resurrection described in the Bible as the first resurrection,which sounds alot like the meeting in the air spoken about in Thes.

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture In the 5th seal, the martyrs of Jesus (dead in Christ) are asking for justice - to be avenged. We know that when the "rapture" occurs, the bodies of the dead in Christ come out of graves and we are all changed and caught up. We are waiting for what Paul described in 1 Cor 15 - to be clothed with immortality. In the 5th seal, it says that white robes are given to them. Those white robes are the "clothes of immortality" that are given to the bride at the time of the "rapture". The dead in Christ do not receive them without the living in Christ which is why the entire Bride, to that moment in time, is standing before the throne wearing white robes in Rev 7. Side note: The martyrs who ask the question in the 5th seal are told MORE MARTYRS must occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal when the white robes are given, are those who are beheaded by the beast during the 7th seal and who are resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the millennium according to Rev 20. I wonder why this resurrection you speak of isn't in the Bible

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture

What everyone is saying Jen,the fault isn't the written word it's your interpitation of the word that needs work.

The Point Is That Not By Any Shot Of Unbelief Nor By Any Stretch Of The Imagination Nor By Any Snort Of Man Or Demon, Is God Done With His Beloved Israel Or With His Earthy City Jerusalem And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 29:7-9 ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe That's the most I've heard Joe say since I have been on here.

Over 1000 years away? How do you figure this one please? The new heaven and new earth don't appear until after the millennial reign of Christ. Sorry for butting in,but I knew the answer to that one

Again, you resort to falsehoods. A pattern forms. When you cannot refute what is said, you resort to dishonest tactics, and that is where problems begin, because the above kind of statement is unacceptable. Please show me where exactly I say that the Word of God is faulty. In your zeal to crush pre-trib doctrine, which you obviously despise, you have transitioned from simply debating it to openly slandering people who believe it. That is not the behavior of a Christian. How do you get I resort to falsehoods in this post? Please show me where I say anything about you,I said the pre-trib DOCTRINE could be faulty. You imply that I think the word of God is faulty because I do not accept your post-trib doctrine. This is always where the rock throwing starts. Because pre-tribs don't usually do this, they simply lay out scripture and their beliefs. It is always the post-tribers that start resorting to the above type of tactics, which would not be necessary if you truly stood on solid theological ground. "Faulty." "Itching ears." You name it. You cannot confine the dialogue to the subject, you have to take it to areas you shouldn't be going, because it's all you have. Your kind of attitude is why I stopped participating in these Rapture threads long ago and why I won't be participating in them any longer. I never said nor implied you think the word of God is faulty,I implied the pre-trib doctrine is faulty,and it is.It's a wish, that alot of people hold to as being the truth.

Again, you resort to falsehoods. A pattern forms. When you cannot refute what is said, you resort to dishonest tactics, and that is where problems begin, because the above kind of statement is unacceptable. Please show me where exactly I say that the Word of God is faulty. In your zeal to crush pre-trib doctrine, which you obviously despise, you have transitioned from simply debating it to openly slandering people who believe it. That is not the behavior of a Christian. How do you get I resort to falsehoods in this post? Please show me where I say anything about you,I said the pre-trib DOCTRINE could be faulty.

Jesus' Second Coming is accomplished by Him physically returning to earth and first touching the Mount of Olives. He has to physically touch the earth for it to actually be the Second Coming. He can come within a foot of the earth and He still hasn't returned to it. Coming to a persons house is just a turn of phrase, semantics. If you just drive up the street and park in front of their house, in reality, you didn't go to their house, you went within the vicinity of it. The only way you went to their house is if you physically set foot in it. It is actually kind of disingenuous to call the Rapture a Second Coming, because it isn't, and none of us think of it that way. Christ comes for his church at the last trumpet, just before He touches down on Mount Olives. This is mentioned in scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." There is no way around it Brother. It's that simple But that teaching doesn't tickle the ears,it teaches that the church is in for a rough road ahead.

Only if you place a wrong contextual meaning on the word "first" as has already been discussed. You can't have the Church on the earth after the 6th Seal. I can concede that it is possible that the Rapture could happen as late as that, but it cannot occur at the end of the Tribulation, for a multitude of reasons. You would have to ignore, change or throw out many parts of scripture to make a post-trib Rapture work. Have you ever considered that "first" resurrection refers only to Israel, and/or OT and Tribulation believers? Paul says specifically that the Rapture is for those "in Christ" only. That means no OT saints are resurrected at that time. When do they get resurrected? You have to have at least two separate resurrections of believers to make scripture agree and match up. The prophecy to Daniel was to him and Israel only, not the Church and it was plain that that resurrection was not until all had been accomplished. That resurrection cannot be the same one that Paul was talking about because Daniel, or anyone else up to Christ's death and resurrection was not "in" Christ. I have to believe if another resurrection was needed just for the church,somewhere in Gods word it would have been written down.The other 2 resurrections are plainly described.Could it be that the pre-trib doctrine is faulty, not the word of God.I think I'll go with the word of God is true and the pre-trib doctrine is false.

The Church Age, is exactly that, an Age. It ends. I've heard all the excuses. The Rapture doctrine is "new." It was invented by Darby or Scofield or Margaret MacDonald's "vision." All 100% bogus. The Pre-tribulation doctrine is as old as the church. It's what Paul taught to the Thessalonians to calm them down from thinking they had somehow missed it. It was taught until the 4th century when it disappears for a long time. Why? Because by the 4th Century, the Catholic Church cornered the market on "church" and they didn't like a doctrine that allowed Israel to have God's promises to her kept, which is what the tribulation is all about. The RCC was extremely anti-semitic which is why they adopted an allegorical interpretation of scripture, and why they choose an amillennial eschatology that excluded Israel and has the Church replacing Israel. This doctrinal error really didn't get straightened out during the Reformation either, which is why most churches today are still amillenial, in other words, no actual Millennial Kingdom. It's all just kind of hazy and open-ended, and allegorical. Scripture doesn't really mean what it says. Israel gets relegated to the Dust Bin of History and no one really has a problem with that. Except those who take the Word of God seriously, and literally. Israel and the Church are joined, yes, and we are grafted into Israel, but we are not above Israel, we do not supercede Israel, and we do not replace Israel. Israel and the church have different plans and different destinies. The Church has no place during the tribulation and it does not belong there. I to was a pre-trib believer until it was brought to my attention that in the order of the Thes 4 scripture,a resurrection must occur along with the rapture.So I started studying the resurrections in the Bible.They're only 2 choices for the rapture theory,the first resurrection happens just prior to the 1000 year reign,the second resurrection happens just after the 1000 year reign.So for the rapture to be a Biblical doctrine,it has to happen at the first resurrection. The pre-trib doctrine doesn't teach that rapture happens along with the first resurrection,because it teaches the church will be raptured before the end time events start.The only way for the church to be raptured before the tribulation starts is to slip another resurrection into scripture prior to the second comming.Show me that resurrection in the Bible and I will change my beliefs.

That statement is a bogus red herring. When you are forced to resort to falsehoods and lies to defend your doctrine, the battle is already lost. No one believes that the church is more holy or better than anything and that is why it gets to escape the tribulation. You, as most people bashing a pre-trib rapture, just can't seem to get it through your head that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. Tribulation occurs at the hands of people, instigated by bad human nature, and/or Satan. Wrath occurs directly at the hands of God, and those in Christ are 100% exempt from wrath. The Church has never existed without troubles. The Church is more persecuted now that it was when it first began, so that is another bogus statement. Believers are still martyred daily. The Church is not "escaping" anything but God's wrath. You cannot, biblically-speaking, have the Church still on the earth after the 6th seal, or scripture is being broken, unless they are living in some magic bubble. OK lets start over,which resurrection in your opinion is the rapture of the church tied to?

According to Rev 2, 3, and 12, among other places, we will rule/reign from the throne of God. It could mean just about anything - we could be like the angels who come and go...I haven't really studied it much. My focus has just been on end-times stuff. I do know that Israel will be lifted up as the foremost nation from where Jesus directs people and events in the millennium before he turns everything over to God after the millennium. 'cause remember, there's another rebellion at the end of the millennium, just before the GWT judgment. 1Cr 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-- But, one thing I can say is that just thinking about being there and doing whatever He wants me to do, just being in His presence, makes me very happy. The throne will be in Jerusalem,that's where we are going.That's the whole purpose of the second comming,so Christ can take his seat on the throne of David,that's where the ruling and reigning will be from.

What I think you may be missing is the PURPOSE of the rapture -WHY it takes place. It's not that the living in Christ are more holy than those who have died, it that time's up. When Jesus is ready to kick the devil down to the earth and pour out wrath, there are people alive on earth that are born of the Spirit, that have accepted Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus went to prepare a city for us in heaven, the New Jerusalem, and He's coming, just as He promised to take us there. At some point, Jesus' promises, indeed HIS Covenant is fulfilled. And that moment is just prior to wrath. It comes to ALL the church, living and dead, at one moment in time. Those who believe after we have been removed who are beheaded by the beast are honored by Jesus for making that sacrifice wth resurrection during the First resurrection of the millennium. THEY will have been under wrath and will die for choosing Jesus during that time, but will live forever, after being judged by their works. We aren't going to the new Jerusalem,it is comming to us.Read the 21st chapter of Rev again.The holy city is comming DOWN from God to Earth Hbr 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Hbr 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Hbr 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, Hbr 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. We are going there first because Jesus said he would come back and take us there. Notice the timing of when the New Jerusalem comes down: Revelation 21 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. This appears to me to be post-millennial. There is still death during the millennium. Death is destroyed at the GWT judgment at the end of the millenium. Where are you going during the millennial reign?

What I think you may be missing is the PURPOSE of the rapture -WHY it takes place. It's not that the living in Christ are more holy than those who have died, it that time's up. When Jesus is ready to kick the devil down to the earth and pour out wrath, there are people alive on earth that are born of the Spirit, that have accepted Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus went to prepare a city for us in heaven, the New Jerusalem, and He's coming, just as He promised to take us there. At some point, Jesus' promises, indeed HIS Covenant is fulfilled. And that moment is just prior to wrath. It comes to ALL the church, living and dead, at one moment in time. Those who believe after we have been removed who are beheaded by the beast are honored by Jesus for making that sacrifice wth resurrection during the First resurrection of the millennium. THEY will have been under wrath and will die for choosing Jesus during that time, but will live forever, after being judged by their works. We aren't going to the new Jerusalem,it is comming to us.Read the 21st chapter of Rev again.The holy city is comming DOWN from God to Earth

and yet, there's scripture after scripture showing the church (those who made a covenant by sacrifice/those who have washed in the blood of the Lamb) being called to and standing in heaven before wrath, before the devil gets his 42 months. Of coarse alot of the church is in Christ's presence,every believer that has past since the ascension of the Lord is there. It is probably a number that no man can number,and the second comming hasn't happened yet. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,the rapture isn't the only way to get where Christ is.

The martyrs cannot be Church Age believers if they enter the Tribulation. They are either protected, or they are not. Those in Christ cannot suffer from God's wrath. So they are either gone at the time of the Great Tribulation or they are supernaturally protected. There is no 3rd option. I stand with my statement,God has allowed his children to suffer many times in the scriptures to magnify his name.The end time church is no holier than the early church,and many of them were martyred.This thought that the end time church is some how going to be whisk away without trouble,is a vain thought.We are not holier than the early church,in my opinion we are far worse off track.

You didn't really answer the question. Does God supernaturally protect Church Age believers who enter the Tribulation, in your escatology view, yes, or no? Yes I think God will protect some,and before you ask about the martyrs, he allows them to be killed so his name is magnified,just as he did through out the Old Testament.

You do unless you are claiming that Church Age believers entering the tribulation are supernaturally protected after the 6th seal is opened. Are you claiming that? Did God rapture Noah and his family,or protect them through the flood,Did God rapture the children of Israel out of Egypt,or did he protect them through the plagues.The God I believe in is more than able to protect his own through the end times,right here on this earth.Just like he has shown all through the Bible.

Then explain the church dwelling in heaven, at the throne of God before the devil is empowered in Rev 6/7 and Rev 12/13. And by the way, the church has been in the tribulation for nearly 2000 years (by Jesus' definition of tribulation in Matt 24) and it is the wrath we are not appointed to suffer. I don't have to find a way to rapture the church prior to the second comming,that is the conundrum the pre-tribers have gotten themselves into.I think the rapture and second comming is the same event.

YOU said that there are only two resurrections - the first and the last in Rev 20. I am proving to you that not only is there a resurrection and rapture of the church mentioned twice in Revelation PRIOR to the first resurrection but there is also a resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses PRIOR to the first resurrection. This is an undeniable fact. Rev 6/7 and Rev 12/13 show the church standing in heaven, praising God for salvation and the Kingdom that has "NOW COME", having overcome the devil PRIOR to wrath and at a time when "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you". I would surmise the 2 witness' are added to the multitude under the thrown,seeing as they were killed by the beast. Their resurrection is wrote about in plain English,along with the first resurrection,and the second resurrection.The resurrection NOT written about is the one you and the pre-tribers claim is for the church,that's the resurrection that i see as erroneous The white-robed multitude is standing in heaven before the throne before the antichrist is even empowered which occurs in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal. Rev 12 confirms this because the heaven dwelling brethren are standing in heaven saying "NOW IS COME the kingdom" AND ALSO SAYING "woe to the earth for the devil is gone down to you". By the way, this also takes us back to 2 Thess 2 and the Greek word Apostasia meaning "departure" or "our gathering together unto him" before the man of sin can be revealed. The pre-trib view is not Biblical The only way for it to be feasible is to ADD a resurrection for it to happen with that isn't in the Bible,it's that simple.

YOU said that there are only two resurrections - the first and the last in Rev 20. I am proving to you that not only is there a resurrection and rapture of the church mentioned twice in Revelation PRIOR to the first resurrection but there is also a resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses PRIOR to the first resurrection. This is an undeniable fact. Rev 6/7 and Rev 12/13 show the church standing in heaven, praising God for salvation and the Kingdom that has "NOW COME", having overcome the devil PRIOR to wrath and at a time when "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you". I would surmise the 2 witness' are added to the multitude under the thrown,seeing as they were killed by the beast. Their resurrection is wrote about in plain English,along with the first resurrection,and the second resurrection.The resurrection NOT written about is the one you and the pre-tribers claim is for the church,that's the resurrection that i see as erroneous

If a person can't read what this says and understand it, then it's WILLFUL ignoring of scripture for their own bias/beliefs. You, personally, won't even acknowledge the resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 which is obviously prior to the "first resurrection" in Rev 20. Rev 12 and Rev 7 DEFINE the heaven-dwellers as the church. The angels and God didn't overcome the devil by the blood of the Lamb, nor are they ever referred to as "our brethren" who have been accused by the devil. Rev 12: 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 7: 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. ... 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Where in all that does it say these people were raptured to heaven ? It doesn't, those people could be the souls of believers who have died,been martyred,been aborted,killed in any of a million ways during the last 2000 or so years.It in no way infers they are the raptured church. The resurrection of the two witnesses has nothing to do with this conversation unless one of us is implying the two witness' are the church and Israel . This thread is about the rapture and when it happens.

The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the first resurrection of the millenium...because it says so. There is a first and a last resurrection in Revelation 20. You appear to be stuck on the "first" word, not understanding that even the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured before the "first resurrection" takes place. By the way, when the 5th seal martyrs are given white robes, they are told more martyrs will occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal are those who are beheaded in the 7th seal at the hands of the beast and then raised AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION! Those who are beheaded at the hands of the beast are the ONLY ones resurrected in the first resurrection of the millennium after Christ has already come on the clouds to destroy and bound the devil into an abyss....because it says so. SEE: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The view you describe is the pre-trib view,only you are trying to call it something else.You are adding a resurrection prior to the second comming of the Lord,so the church can stroll through a bed of roses as the end time events unfold,which isn't in the Bible. John would have wrote about a resurrection involving millions of people,just as he did about the other 2 resurrections,if they're was one.It's not in the Bible for a reason,and that reason is obvious, if people would put the second comming where it belongs (Rev 20) they're wouldn't be so much confussion.What is the reason John said the one's taking part in the first resurrection are blessed ? They are blessed because they died for Christ and Christ honored their sacrifice. Tell me why the heaven-dwellers who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb in Rev 12 say "now is come the salvation and the Kingdom" and also say "woe to the earth for the devil is come down to you having a short time". When the rapture occurs, Jesus appears in the air with the spirits of the dead in Christ, their bodies rise, we are all changed to immortality and caught up to the throne of God PRIOR to wrath. Why is the church in heaven in Rev 12 saying NOW IS COME the Kingdom of God and also saying "woe to the earth for the devil is gone down to you"??? Rev 20's first resurrection is POST wrath - Jesus has already appeared for the church, poured out wrath, come on the clouds to destroy and bound the devil. The church is not appointed to wrath but receive salvation by the coming of Jesus! This is why the church is dwelling in heaven in Rev 12, saying NOW IS COME salvation and the Kingdom and also saying "woe to the earth for the devil is gone down to you knowing his time is short". This is why the church is given white robes in the 5th seal, wrath begins in the 6th seal, and the church is seen standing in heaven before the 7th seal in Rev 6/7. In your view are not the legions of angels "heaven - dweller's" is God not a heaven-dweller. The rapture and second comming are the same event,that is why only 2 resurrections are spoken of in the Bible.One before the 1000 reign,and one after.Preachers and teachers today have done a disservice to the word of God by speaking and teaching that the end time church is some how special,and is whisk away without a care or worry.The early church members didn't get whisk away,they were killed every imaginable way the devil could think of.Read the book of martyr's and tell me again how the church isn't going through the end time wrath.Instead of trying to find a way to tickle the ears of the church members,teachers today should teach the truth and prepare the end time church for whats comming prior the the second comming of the Lord.