firestormx

Agreed. That would be how I am starting to see it. I just don't understand how anything I posted was addressed.

Maybe I just missed it. But I don't see how you addressed anything I wrote. Hebrews 9:22 makes clear there can be no remission without the shedding of blood. I simply don't understand your point of view. It makes absolutely no sense at all from a biblical point of view. The implication of your words is that for 2000 years every Christian and bible scholar has been wrong but you alone have it right. Nobody else has ever had it right in 2000 years. Wow. Either every Christian alive is in false doctrine and sin , except you or you have something wrong. It seems to me you tried to talk about everything I said , without addressing any of it. I feel no need to respond until you properly address my post and each point I made. God Bless

Warning this is going to be a very long post. Sorry, it took me so long to get back to you. One of my kids has a cold as do I. Plus errands and schools stuff for kids has put a limit on my time the last couple of days. I am going to try to answer several of your questions that I have not really answered. What I am going to post will answer a lot of questions you have asked me. But the first question it answers is " what law do we follow ? " also " how do we know what laws apply to us as Christians and which don't ? " . It will take a very long post to answer these questions. First, let's deal with sacrifice. why did they sacrifice animals in the old testament? Why don't we today? most would say " because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross " . Ok, but why? The answer is really simple. God's words and laws are eternal. See God said, " without the shedding of blood there can be no remission ( forgiveness) of sin ". So all of the Sacrificial things in the law. All the stuff about what to sacrifice, when to sacrifice can all be boiled down to the law of God which is eternal. The law of God which will never change. The Law of God that applied in the garden of Eden. It applied in Moses day. It applies today. It will apply on judgment day. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin. In the old testament, it was accomplished through animal sacrifice which had to be redone over and over. In the new testament, it was done by Jesus once and that one sacrifice of Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice. Both old and new covenants had the same goal. Remission of sin. But go about achieving it in different ways. The old covenant sacrifices were temporary, the new covenant through Jesus is permanent. So all the old testament things about sacrifice in the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus. It wasn't destroyed. It wasn't just thrown out. A better way to achieve the same goal of remission sin was put in place. Therefore, Christians today don't follow anything in the Law of Moses about Sacrifice of animals. It was fulfilled and all who place their faith in Jesus Have his sacrifice and shedding of his blood apply for their sin. Why? Because without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission/forgiveness of sin. Now let's deal with food and clothes and ritual bathing and the such in the law of Moses. What was the purpose of these things in the law of Moses? Why the restrictions on what to eat? Why the restrictions on what they could wear? Once again because the Law of the living God and Jesus Christ is eternal. It doesn't change. So what law or principle am I talking about? what was the reason for all of these restrictions? The Lord said, " Be Holy for the Lord your God is Holy ". All these restrictions are based on holiness or being clean or being righteous. that was the reason for the restrictions on what to eat and wear. That is why they were told not to touch dead bodies and not to touch anything " unclean " . God wanted and demanded his people be Holy. Does this principle apply today? Yes, it does. Once again it is an eternal principle of God that will never change and will always apply. Likewise, it also has changed through Jesus. For the bible declares we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. That what he makes clean is completely clean. See in the new testament, We have the exact same requirement of holiness but it is accomplished in a different but better and perfect way. It is accomplished now perfectly in Jesus Christ. The word is clear that our works will never attain righteousness in the eyes of God. Our Holiness/righteousness comes from Jesus. The Same goal in both the Old and New covenants but achieved in different ways. So all the stuff in the Law of Moses about being clean has not been destroyed in Jesus. It has not been done away with in Jesus. It has been fulfilled in Jesus. So that now we look only to Jesus Christ for our righteousness. All the stuff in the old testament about restrictions on what to eat and wear. the restrictions on when to bath and who and what they could touch. All these things don't apply to us Christians because the same goal of Holiness is achieved in Jesus. What about Homosexuality? Is it still a sin? What about adultery? is it still a sin? Now let's look at the Moral parts of the Law of Moses. See it was believed for most of the time of the old testament that you had to actually commit adultery to be guilty of this sin. When Jesus come and said, " if you look at someone in lust you have committed adultery already " . It took people by surprise. Jesus taught over and over that God looks at the heart or the motive. But what most didn't understand was that God has always looked at the heart and motive. Go look at the story of Noah and the flood and you will find a place where God says " The thought's and intents of their hearts are evil continually ". Look at when God sent the Prophet to find the next king of Israel to follow saul. The Prophet went to the best looking and strongest in the flesh of the house of Jesse. But God said that he looks inward at the heart. See once again God's law is eternal. God has always looked at the heart or motive. The reason for Don't steal or don't kill is simple. Love. Love is the reason behind the Moral laws in the law of Moses. If you Love God you will not commit homosexuality because it rebels against God and the order he established with man and women becoming one flesh. If you love your neighbor you will not steal from him. If you love your neighbor you will not lie to him. Jesus was very clear that not only does the Law of love still apply. But if love is not the motive from your heart you are in danger. Once again Jesus took the law of Moses, this time the moral parts of it , and clarified the eternal , never changing aspects of the Law on morality. See, no longer are these just written down laws or rules. But through Jesus Christ they became a part of the very nature of all who have been born again and made a new creature in Jesus Christ. So that we can have the same nature of love in Jesus that the Father in Heaven has. That we from our hearts can be molded in Jesus to be more and more like him. So that we may be called the Children of God. We today do not follow the law of Moses as given to the Israelites in the wilderness. We follow Jesus. The law of Moses in its entirety is fulfilled in Jesus. Our salvation, our holiness, and our morality are in Jesus Christ. Apart from Jesus, we have no hope. I hope this clarifies for you what my position on the law is. What I follow and why. I see Jesus as my only hope. He made a New testament or new covenant which in every way is better than the Old, it is perfect. Our hope is Jesus. He is worthy of all praise and glory. For the entirety of our salvation rests with him. God Bless Firestormx Joseph

I'm too tired to respond properly now, and tomorrow I got a lot to do, but I will try to answer you tomorrow or Friday at the latest. I have enjoyed the conversation as well. Two people can discuss Jesus and the word and doctrine and not get personal. I don't see winning or victory as proving I'm right. I live my life believing victory comes when I submit to God and give testimony to his truth. If I do that, then I am victorious in Jesus and nobody can take that victory from me. I know that is not what most people consider winning or being victorious. I think to most it means to come out on top. I don't care about that. Pleasing God and speaking his truth, that's what matters to me. God bless

Sin is what is not of faith. Sin is the transgression of the law. In the case for us in the New Covenant, Sin is the transgression of the law of love, for love is the fulfilling of the law.

Through Jesus Christ. Jesus said what he cleans is completely clean. The Lord said through the Apostle Paul, We are the Righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. We are able to have and maintain A relationship with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit because of Jesus Christ. The easiest way I know to describe it would be the following example: The Father owns a garden and Jesus is the gardener. We are the fruit trees. We get planted in God's garden ( salvation ) , by Jesus Christ . We on our own, have no ability to get ourselves there. We remain in God's garden ( relationship and sanctification ) because of Jesus Christ. Once again, we have no control over staying in the garden by anything we do. It's all in the gardener's hands ( Jesus ). However, because we have been planted in God's garden and tended to by God's gardener ( Jesus ) we will bring forth certain fruit ( works, behavior ) that a tree planted in God's garden should produce. Likewise, we are saved by Jesus Christ. We stay in a right relationship with God Because of Jesus Christ. Finally, Because we have been placed by Jesus Christ in this relationship with the Father and Jesus keeps us in this relationship, then we will be conformed more and more into the image of Jesus Christ. Doing the works he did from the heart. Love, hope, and faith. These should spring forth from us in word and deed. I understand your dilemma with this. What tells us what is right and wrong? How can we say homosexuality is a sin when it is from the mosaic law that we get it's a sin from. Then turn around and say we don't have to follow the law at all. I think I know and understand where you are coming from now. I just understand Jesus is not only why I am saved, but How I stay saved. I'm not osas. I stumble daily. Make mistakes daily. But I believe with all my heart, that as long as I am, from my heart , following Jesus. Then I have no need to worry about my salvation. For I am not saved because of what I do or don't do daily but because of what Jesus did once and then sat down and the right hand of the Father. God bless you Firestormx Joseph

I underlined, bolded and italicized a portion of your answer above about "the Holy Spirit brings us into SANCTIFICATION, by teaching us to obey the Mosaic law " Now you stated above this that we are saved by grace through faith. However, it sounds like with the statement I highlighted above you are saying we stay in a right standing and relationship with God by keeping the Mosaic law. Could you please clarify this for me? Do I understand you correctly?

I believe the 2nd coming is later. But we are not appointed to wrath, we leave before the wrath begins as it says in Joel. The verse in Joel states clearly that the Wrath of God DOES NOT begin until after that event. That is not disputable. It says it as plain as it can. Anyways, God Bless you. I don't see the point in continuing since either of us is going to be moved. I was just curious how you got around the verse in Joel and Matthew and how they tie into Revelation 6.

I believe Matthew 24:29-31 contradicts the order of events in this post. It states the 6th seal is broke first then Jesus comes and gathers his elect. Also, Joel 2:31, I believe is clear that this event is before the Great and terrible day of the Lord, which always means God's wrath. In context with the rest of the chapter, it is the end times pouring out of God's anger/judgment/wrath that takes place after this event of the 6th seal. But thank you for posting your thoughts. I have enjoyed learning more about your point of view.

Thanks for the clear answer to your understanding of this. If all the seals are his wrath, how come they only say his wrath has come with the 6th seal? Why did they not notice the first 5 seals as the wrath of the Lamb?

Just curious, can you show me where in chapter 6 it says that the seals are the wrath of the Lamb?

Amen and thank you

LOL

So are you saying we should let sin run unchecked in the church? Can you please show me Your statement above in the bible?

I took some time to think on this question. I wanted to be clear with my answer. Matthew 7:15-20 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. In these verses Jesus is telling us to Identify people who claim to be doing God's work and are not. The Bible is clear that we are not to stand by and let sin and false doctrine run unchecked in the body of Christ. We are to be the light in the darkness, exposing liars and wolves for what they are. But sin and false doctrine running unchecked are exactly what will happen if people are passing themselves off as Christian when they are not and these people are not confronted. That is what will happen if a brother or sister who is a Christian falls into sin and is not confronted. Nowhere in scripture are we told to never confront sin. In fact In the ministry of Jesus, Paul and the 12 Apostles we see just the opposite. They confronted sin and those who claimed to Children of God but were not all the time. We are told to speak the truth in love and humility. The Idea that nobody in sin is to be confronted, no sinful behavior is to be confronted and no false doctrine is to be confronted or it is judging is one of the biggest problems in the church right now as a whole. Firestormx

You are correct. I'm sorry I was mistaken. I had not responded because I thought your post to someone else was to me. Thereby misrepresenting what I had said. I was wrong and I apologize

The Bible says to try the spirits to see if they be Holy and from God or not. We are instructed to not Believe every spirit. The bible teaches clearly that the Holy Spirit can give the gifts of Healing and the gift of Miracles. Signs and wonders the bible teaches are for unbelievers not Christians. Also, the bible teaches that God will not share his glory with another. If the Holy Spirit is the source of the signs and wonders and miracles then it will point to and glorify Jesus. It won't be about the person whom God is working through. The bible is the final authority. The bible declares that all things should be done decently and in order. There is not one of us above being corrected, rebuked or reproved. All that matters is that it is Jesus that people see. It is Jesus that people look to. That it is Jesus truth that we speak and not our own. There is no way to the Father except through Jesus Christ. Whether in word or in power like signs and wonders it has to all point to Jesus Christ. For there is hope in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and no other.

The word of God is the standard we use to determine if someone is saved as well as their outward walk and speech and behavior Which must line up to the word of God. As for different veiw points of scripture it depends on the subject. For example, someone's rapture belief is not a salvation issue. However , whether Jesus was sinless or if Jesus was God in the Flesh is salvation issues.

This is a beautifully written statement . I couldn't agree more.

1 John 1:8-10 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

You keep misrepresenting what I say and I will not have a conversation with someone who is doing that. I have answered your posts, but if you continue to say I said things I didn't, then I will not respond.

Below is my statement from my original op which is on topic for what I have been discussing . IS it biblical to call someone out for not being a Christian if they say they are but don't meet the identifiers?

I never said we all sin always and ask you to show me where I did. However the bible is clear that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Exactly! So how is that not Judging their relationship with God or the lack of a relationship with God?

1 Matthew 7:15-20 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. What are these verses talking about? People who claim to be God's children, God's ministers and are not. It says we can know them or identify them by their fruits. We should know who is and who is not a Christian and be able to identify them by their fruit. These verses are telling us to make that judgment on if they are false or not. If we identify someone by their fruits as a false Christian and yet we say and do nothing. Then are we not going to be held responsible by God for the damage they do?