Farmgal

We're not judged by the law because we're no longer under the law. We are led by the Spirit, not the letter: 2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The standard is Christ, the Bible tells us to pick up our cross daily and die to ourselves, it is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me. We are conforming to the image of Christ, running a race: Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

The reason Obamacare is causing our insurance rates to go up (and yes, I understand they went up previously, but there will be a drastic increase now), because there will be people, who are below poverty level, who will get free healthcare. Someone has to cover the cost, this cost gets pushed onto the insurance companies which gets pushed onto us. If you go to an emergency room at present, they can not turn you away regardless if you have health insurance, these visits also get pushed onto the insurance companies, which get pushed onto us. One factor is illegal immigrants, they do not have insurance, but will not get turned away from ER's, another factor is the high unemployment rate, people go to ER without jobs and insurance. All of these costs end up in our lap. It is why, when you look at people who are above poverty line right now, they STILL won't be able to afford insurance, especially with the rising cost of insurance. Now companies will be laying off to avoid having to purchase insurance and/or pay a penalty, so those people will be added to unemployment, who now will be receiving free healthcare, which will end up in our laps. It's a non-escaping cycle, it only benefits a few Americans while trapping the rest of us. It would have made more sense to start a program helping those people w/out insurance instead of the mandate, but we don't do things that make sense. Now back to Ed's motto. :-)

You are right, Ed! Very wise of you, if you don't mind, I think I might borrow your motto. No use arguing over this anymore, it's exhausting, the next 4 years will speak for itself.

What about Obamacare caused your health insurance to go up 50%? Before Obamacare my insurance rates were going up, I don't see what has changedc concerning this. My HR head says that insurance costs ARE going up but it's only slightly due to Obamacare (the preexisting conditions clause). From what I understand, companies are already required to provide health insurance if they have fifty or more employees and have been for some time.. The main reason is the average age of workers. Many people's insurance did not rise until Obamacare was passed. The promise of Obamacare was to make a change at a realitively low cost to the consumer, this was an outright lie seems how insurance costs have increased dramatically since its passing. The company my husband works for employs 100,000's of workers, this is the first time our premiums have increased this much and it was AFTER Obama was re-elected. There is a pending strike over the healthcare portion of the contract. Just google "rising cost of insurance" and almost every article will tell you it's due to Obamacare, what your HR person has said - is his/her opinion. The facts are out there, companies will be laying off due to the cost of Obamacare, not to mention the additional taxes Obama wants placed on them. Unemployment rates will skyrocket over the next year, gov't assistance will skyrocket and so will our deficit. When gov't takes control, nothing good comes from it.

Obamacare is a small business killer, insurance rates have risen (ours has gone up about 50%), which forces the company to either 1). pay the penalty 2). lay-off, the person who was insured will either have to pay another penalty or find their own health insurance to the tune of $800-1400 a month. Many people's insurance has already risen to these levels, insurance companies also have strategic plans to make a profit. Lay-offs increases the number of people on gov't assistance. Obamacare is all around not good for America. At least 47% of us knew what was coming, so not a shocking story.

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose? For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments... See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427 and http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856 God's grace empowers us to obey AND do the works God has prepared for us. I will stand by; if you do not have works you do not have faith, faith without works is dead. The churches today are not teaching people how to be disciples of Christ through faith and action. It is not a lay down faith, it is one of boldness, empowerment, courage and strength, we do have Christ in us, He is doing His work in and through us: It leads to the problem, however, why is the church not at work? If we as a Body were at work the effects would be tremendous, the world would stand up and notice. Why isn't it happening? If I think this way - am I being legalistic? The Body of Christ needs to get to work! I agree with you. Faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26) No I don't think you're being legalistic by saying Christians should be about good works. The Bible says as much so it is true. But I ask again what are good works? What is the purpose of good works? We should be doing the work of Christ. As the Body of Christ, we are participating with God in advancing His Kingdom. The Kingdom is in us and all around us, Jesus was all about it and if we are the Body, we should be following Him in the same. I don't know what God's work for you is and you don't know what mine is - but we can both know it will be all about advancing His Kingdom......and praise Him that we have this most awesome privilege!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose? For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments... See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427 and http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856 God's grace empowers us to obey AND do the works God has prepared for us. I will stand by; if you do not have works you do not have faith, faith without works is dead. The churches today are not teaching people how to be disciples of Christ through faith and action. It is not a lay down faith, it is one of boldness, empowerment, courage and strength, we do have Christ in us, He is doing His work in and through us: It leads to the problem, however, why is the church not at work? If we as a Body were at work the effects would be tremendous, the world would stand up and notice. Why isn't it happening? If I think this way - am I being legalistic? The Body of Christ needs to get to work!

I agree with this almost completely, I believe we are called to live as this today. I don't agree with the concept of redistribution of wealth on the government level, the people were called to share all they had with others - directly - not through gov't intervention. The difference would be having a relationship with those who shared all, it was an obedience on the part of the givers, not a forced edict of any wordly gov't. We are the Body of Christ and we were called to care for the poor and the widow - not the gov't - we're just doing a really bad job in America, we are too comfortable in our western lifestyle here to step out in faith to actually look like the Church in Acts.

Hey GoldenEagle, I agreed with the definition you provided of legalism if it would stop there, but it does not stop there. The bottom line is if you do not have works, you do not have faith - because we know faith without works is dead. A person who shows forth fruit - is an obedient person first and foremost, those who love the Lord will be obedient, in our obedience, God transforms us to the image of Christ. If we are not obedient, we do not love the Lord, we will not show forth fruit. Do you see the connection? There is our part of the covenant to uphold, we obey and DO the work God has prepared for us, is, like it or not, deemed legalistic and it's not. If there is any indication what so ever that it appears we are trying to save ourselves by doing His work through obedience, people, in the feel good Christianity we have today, is deemed legalistic. Christianity is dying to ourselves on a daily basis, it is being slain by the cross, allowing our old man to die and the new creation come alive, this has been lost! We see people today who seem to believe after they "accept Christ" they are free to do whatever their hearts desire wants them to do, this is not salvation, it is not sanctification. A requirement of obedience through the love of the Lord is required, the only way to achieve this is abiding in Christ. Abiding is an action verb, faith is action, obedience is action, action on our part is considered legalistic in today's Christianity. That's how I see it.

This is great, thanks for sharing.

You keep saying that God "gives one nice things". that and your comment "even the sinners are blessed?", illustrates the difference between what I think and what you think. Yes, I believe that God can bless a sinner if He so wishes. I know that He loves them.. I know that he loved me when I was a sinner, I know that He protected me and watched over me, and never once abandoned me, although I abandoned Him. And here is the kicker. I don't care if God blesses me with "nice things", I never think about it. I just walk His path, because that is all He wants me to do. Because I know in my heart that the "good" Paul talks about in Romans is eternal, and has nothing to do with the now. Amen, Fez! In America, it is the "sign" for God's favor I think - to be blessed with nice things (not what God is interested in, of course). Instead, living in Christ is supernatural! Miracles happen, needs are met, joy and peace are given, insight and wisdom are given! He is more concerned about us conforming to the image of Christ and our character above all else, in these things God is most glorified. Seek the Kingdom of God first and His righteousness!

It could be the reason He is silent, to grow our faith.

LOL I doubt if most people know what "hoeing beans" is, but I was doing it at age 5, my brother and I would have to take turns, the rows of beans were long! We worked on the farm our entire childhoods, good work ethics are good for a person, something that many children lack today because of these "child labor laws". The problem is these kids today can not get a job, many companies (in this area) won't even hire 16 year olds because of all the silly regulations. They can only work so many hours, safety issues, etc. It's really silly, a 13 year old could make hamburgers at McDonalds, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, however, due to all these rules we have now, they can't work even if they want to. Hard work doesn't hurt anyone, it teaches responsibilities, money management, time management, how to take direction, independence, this has all been taken away in many ways. I'm from Tn. I've hoed plenty of beans. I've snapped them too. I agree farm work and other reasonable age appropriate work for children is fine. But, I would hate to go back to the days when kids were kept out of school to work, when very small children worked in unsanitary and unsafe conditions such as sweat shops for pennies a day. We do not want to become China or go back to the days when children were chained to machines and beaten if they were not up to quota. Well, of course not, however the laws on the books disadvantage our children greatly. We now live in the entitlement age, people believe money grows on trees. Hard work and earning wages is going by the wayside, people believe you can take without working, it's yours without doing anything. Our kids need to learn good work ethics.

LOL I doubt if most people know what "hoeing beans" is, but I was doing it at age 5, my brother and I would have to take turns, the rows of beans were long! We worked on the farm our entire childhoods, good work ethics are good for a person, something that many children lack today because of these "child labor laws". The problem is these kids today can not get a job, many companies (in this area) won't even hire 16 year olds because of all the silly regulations. They can only work so many hours, safety issues, etc. It's really silly, a 13 year old could make hamburgers at McDonalds, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, however, due to all these rules we have now, they can't work even if they want to. Hard work doesn't hurt anyone, it teaches responsibilities, money management, time management, how to take direction, independence, this has all been taken away in many ways. Helping milk cows on my grandmother's dairy farm and picking cotton and threshing peanuts on my other grandparents farm sure game me the incentive to go to school. LOL! Yes, I agree, same here, I couldn't wait to go to college!

LOL I doubt if most people know what "hoeing beans" is, but I was doing it at age 5, my brother and I would have to take turns, the rows of beans were long! We worked on the farm our entire childhoods, good work ethics are good for a person, something that many children lack today because of these "child labor laws". The problem is these kids today can not get a job, many companies (in this area) won't even hire 16 year olds because of all the silly regulations. They can only work so many hours, safety issues, etc. It's really silly, a 13 year old could make hamburgers at McDonalds, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, however, due to all these rules we have now, they can't work even if they want to. Hard work doesn't hurt anyone, it teaches responsibilities, money management, time management, how to take direction, independence, this has all been taken away in many ways.

The article is good, Tinky, thanks for posting! It reminded me of a quote by A.W. Tozer: see aright, the cross of popular evangelicalism is not the cross of the New Testament. It is, rather, a new bright ornament upon the bosom of a self-assured and carnal Christianity. The old cross slew men, the new cross entertains them. The old cross condemned; the new cross amuses. The old cross destroyed confidence in the flesh; the new cross encourages it.

Hi Fez! Great question, Fez, it will be interesting to hear other's insights, looking forward to it. Time for me is limited this morning to search scripture, but here is my take on it: God is silent sometimes for probably several reasons. One of which is how do we respond to Him when He is silent, will we remain faithful to Him? Will we make the right choice? This is an unpopular belief, but God does test us (not tempt as He does not tempt us), yet He does test us, and in some cases maybe that is what He is doing. Job is a good example of a person being tested, having silence from God and remaining faithful in all of his afflictions, of course God eventually does answer Job but not at first. Other posts have mentioned praying and James, that topic is more of the person who doubts when they pray, the silence from God is the answer when we pray and doubt or ask with wrong motivations. Blessings.

This is an awesome video, thanks for posting. Well, said One LIght! He is the overcomer and He lives in us! Praise God!

Your thoughts? Hi Goldeneagle, I agree with the definition of legalism you provided. There seems to be a problem with "works salvation" getting mixed up with obedience and the work God has prepared for us, which is not legalism at all, it is just loving the Lord God and our neighbor as ourselves, which, through Christ, is the fulfillment of the law. It's simple.

The pendulum swinging too far either way is wrong. Who needs grace when the law is the measuring stick and not just the law, but every bondage that Jesus died to break us out of You are free to observe anything you want. I must have had a wonderful childhood because I had to come to this forum to find out how unreasonable legalism is and that those who measure the heart by the length of the skirt seem to think that those who do not agree with them, are fair game and perhaps even unloved by God I have read a number of articles by people who have left congregations like that and they thank God to be free of them I don't see any point in going over your post in response because the question is settled for me and I don;t know if you are actually questioning or trying to convince me to see things your way You should know I have already done my time in an abusive ministry and I know the signs and I know how people talk and I want nothing to do with any of it I really have nothing to add to anything because I don't agree with your position or reasoning and I guess I was overly hopeful when I though we had something to agree on Legalism is a very real and I am afraid very dead subject The problem for you is, everything I have said is scriptural and you chose to ignore the scripture I have provided and doing exactly what was stated earlier about when people walk the walk, they are deemed legalistic. If that is the case, Jesus was legalistic in your opinion. You have never, not once, commented on this scripture: Romans 8:4 the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us Can you please explain what this means if the law is no longer in existance? You also have chosen to ignore this verse all I have gotten is "IMO", we should not be concerned about another's opinions, we should be concerned about what God's Word says. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid yea, we establish the law. Please, again, explain why "we establish the law" when the law is no longer available. I am not speaking of living "under the law" as a Judaizer as I have pointed out to you prior to this post. Also ignored were the commandments Jesus gave us, and in these two commandments, through grace we are able to fulfill it (as stated in Romans 8:4) Love the Lord God with all of your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. We are able to love as he loved (Ephesians 5:2) by abiding in Christ (please read John 15 - all of it), as we abide in Christ we are able to fulfill the law (again as stated in Romans 8:4). It also explains that apart from Him, we can do nothing, which brings us to: Matthew 19:26 with man this is not possible, but All things are possible with God. Where one is walking in the Spirit, there is love, it is not legalism, it is what God has said in His Word. Farmgal, I have enjoyed reading your posts. They are by far the most sound comments I have encountered in any of these threads on legalism. While it is possible that you may not agree with everything I have said, and I might not agree with every view you hold, unlike some, I fully understand your position, and can see you have an understanding of scripture. I don't see how anyone can accuse you of taking scriptures out of their context to suit your purposes? What you have said is sound. Thanks Butero, my experience on forums is that people look beyond scripture so they can hang onto their denominational beliefs and then accuse of taking scripture out of context, I could post the entire chapter of where the verse is found, but that wouldn't do any good either.

The pendulum swinging too far either way is wrong. Who needs grace when the law is the measuring stick and not just the law, but every bondage that Jesus died to break us out of You are free to observe anything you want. I must have had a wonderful childhood because I had to come to this forum to find out how unreasonable legalism is and that those who measure the heart by the length of the skirt seem to think that those who do not agree with them, are fair game and perhaps even unloved by God I have read a number of articles by people who have left congregations like that and they thank God to be free of them I don't see any point in going over your post in response because the question is settled for me and I don;t know if you are actually questioning or trying to convince me to see things your way You should know I have already done my time in an abusive ministry and I know the signs and I know how people talk and I want nothing to do with any of it I really have nothing to add to anything because I don't agree with your position or reasoning and I guess I was overly hopeful when I though we had something to agree on Legalism is a very real and I am afraid very dead subject The problem for you is, everything I have said is scriptural and you chose to ignore the scripture I have provided and doing exactly what was stated earlier about when people walk the walk, they are deemed legalistic. If that is the case, Jesus was legalistic in your opinion. You have never, not once, commented on this scripture: Romans 8:4 the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us Can you please explain what this means if the law is no longer in existance? You also have chosen to ignore this verse all I have gotten is "IMO", we should not be concerned about another's opinions, we should be concerned about what God's Word says. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid yea, we establish the law. Please, again, explain why "we establish the law" when the law is no longer available. I am not speaking of living "under the law" as a Judaizer as I have pointed out to you prior to this post. Also ignored were the commandments Jesus gave us, and in these two commandments, through grace we are able to fulfill it (as stated in Romans 8:4) Love the Lord God with all of your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. We are able to love as he loved (Ephesians 5:2) by abiding in Christ (please read John 15 - all of it), as we abide in Christ we are able to fulfill the law (again as stated in Romans 8:4). It also explains that apart from Him, we can do nothing, which brings us to: Matthew 19:26 with man this is not possible, but All things are possible with God. Where one is walking in the Spirit, there is love, it is not legalism, it is what God has said in His Word.

I posted this in another thread, but that thread was locked... Improper use of the law is the misunderstanding the law has been done away with, that it is no more, which is not true. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid yea, we establish the law. So how are we supposed to establish it, if we think it's disappeared and we are no longer adhering to it? Jesus told us the law and the prophets are hung on loving God and your neighbor as yourself. If you love God and others, when you do this and you look at the law, we can see how the requirements of the law are met (in us through Christ). We are told to love as God loves, there is no other way to do this, but abide in Christ, and inner workings of Him, through Him we are able to establish the law in us, it is fulfilled in us and by His grace we are able to live it out perfectly. Jesus said those who love God will keep His commandments. We love by obeying. It is all about BOTH the law and grace, you can not have one without the other, the law establishes the standard, grace is the empowerment we are given to get there.

If this post is because I mentioned clothing, sorry, I was only using an example of how God might convict someone to be "set apart" for Him. I do believe He does do this, as He calls people to remote areas of the world as a missionary. We are all part of the same Body, we all have different gifts for the edification and building up of the Body. On the other hand, we ARE to be set apart from the world, we ARE to be Holy, and we are not to look like the world. These are rules to follow are they not? If God calls us to not look like the world, and they do not look like the world, is this legalistic? Legalism has been taken way too far in Christian communities to say something it is not, and what those communities are saying is: we are free in Christ, therefore we can do whatever we would like, dress however we like, hang out with whoever we like and go wherever we like - all because we are not legalistic. Jesus was extremely legalistic with our definition of it today, and please, I am not talking about living under the Jewish laws, although with Christ the laws are fulfilled in us so that we might carry them out perfectly as we abide in Christ.

Maybe you could start a new thread. I do want to point out that we establish the law, it is by grace we are able to abide perfectly. Romans 3:31 Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea we establish the law.

Uh huh....but ONLY if we do not walk according to the flesh, what do you think legalism is? Christ fulfilled the law...we never could....legalism is ADDING to the perfect work of Christ on the cross Do you think Galatians is not all that? I have shown you - as we walk in the Spirit - the law is fulfilled in us, we are able to obey (the law) perfectly. Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. I don't have a problem with Galatians, of course, it is God's Word, yet people take what Paul says and it apply it to their lives and then state they are free in Christ to do whatever it is they would like to do. Yes, I see it across the board in a believer's life, sin is a HUGE problem, we are to be sinless, ridding ourselves of it - this would be deemed by some to be legalistic, not saying you are saying that, but I am trying to point out that when people obey, live Holy lives, they are deemed legalistic, as I stated in a previous post. We are free in Christ, to live as Christ did, walk as He walked. I understand all of that....this thread is about legalisim...which is NOT living holy before God...determining that someone who does not live as YOU personally see holiness, would easily be defined as legalisim IMO.... BTW, when I put a word in caps, it's for emphasis...I'm not yelling so no worries I'm not worried about the caps, I do the same thing to emphasis, so don't think I am yelling either. I understand this thread is about legalism, I stated in an earlier post that people need to be careful at labeling people legalistic because of what God has convicted them of. Some people do not watch TV, some people do not read certain kinds of books, some people wear only dresses - because they are convicted by God to do so and this could be viewed as a form of legalism to some. It is not MY personal view of holiness, God's standard is Jesus, He set the standard, not I.