*Zion*

While I agree with Kwik that we must not stray off topic, I believe this is a very important part of it, and will affect how we shall stand upon the shaking that may be taking place at this time. Yes while we were still sinners Jesus died for us. Does that mean that we should go on sinning? Does it mean our sin no longer has consequence? Does it mean we can break our end of covenant with Jesus and yet still expect to benefit from it? What about those to whom He will say He did not know? Are they covenant partakers? Did He not die for them? Did they not accept Him once upon a time? Does it at all affect our security in a time of shaking, whether we are living persistently sinful lives or not? (Note how I make the distinction between sin that is repented of, and sin that is persisted in, for ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory) What does the bible mean when it tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling? What are your take on these questions? I only ask to understand your views better

I am not saying that it's ok for people to just walk away from Jesus. You are quite right, he is not a subscription, or an order on a product, but the King of Kings and the Lord of Lord - Our God, the All Consuming Fire. We should not be deceived, He is not mocked. He is worthy so much more than we could ever give Him. And yet, He gives us free will to walk away. That's our choice, that is on us. We can break covenant if we so choose, but once we do, we come out from under its protection, providence, grace, seal. I hope that's cleared things up.

Ah! Yes, I do! Something new I did not consider before. In that, once we are saved, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, so undoing that seal must take a lot of doing - unless you were never really sealed to begin with, but simply thought you were. I was coming from the perspective of freewill, that though it is a work of grace, to keep the covenant with Jesus is our choice to make or break. But there is a seal there, of the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 1v22), which is a pledge and guarantee of our salvation. It makes a whole heap of sense to me. Yes we sin, and are still very much capable of it, but it is the growing in the fruits of repentance that keep us from sinning - which must be a continual work. But if I persist in a lifestyle away from God, was I ever His in the first place? A thoroughly valid question. A necessary one in this shaking. I also agree that, while it is not our place to pronounce judgement, we can KNOW by the fruit. Knowing is way different from judging, and it is for our protection as well as it might be for our correction, especially in these times. Bless you sis, and stay a blessing

I believe that someone can turn back to God with their whole heart, and that God will accept them back, as He demonstrated with the parable of the prodigal son, but if someone is wilfully walking in disobedience to God and living their life away from under the cover of Jesus' covenant, and God's grace; then they also persisting in living OUTSIDE of a reconciliation with Christ. We cannot live lives that mock the work of Christ on the cross, can we? Why would we want to? It is possible to, little by little, find that we are not cling to Him as we should, and He is gracious to warn us when this happens. But if we ourselves choose to wilfully harden our hearts, what then? It is by grace that we turn to Him in the first place, let alone cling on at all. As He said, many will say Lord, Lord, didn't we do x y and z in Your name? Once saved, always saved, Lord. I have been living apart from you but I just have to believe and hey presto! Even the demons believe and obey God, they are NOT going to heaven. Jesus didn't die for them, but He did die that we, who are made in His image, should LIVE with Him. What's the point if we're not even going to do that? He even says He will vomit the lukewarm out of His mouth. Well, that's all the more reason to expect He wants us to be hot. On fire for Him. So how can we expect to escape if we ourselves are breaking covenant? That's how I see it, anyway.

Thank you, that's ok. I am also sorry if I came across in a less than positive way Ah I had a slightly different understanding of what you were getting at. Perhaps this view arose from some Jews feeling as though we Gentiles had stolen their Messiah? That's where my mind went, reading that. No scripture or anything to back it up, just a thought. Very thought provoking idea, but I'm inclined to agree with Jedi4Yahweh's reply Ahem... no comment but it's true, we're always right...

I think we're both looking at the question(?) in a similar way, although I have broadened my view of it to encompass not just attributing the manifestation of the Holy Spirit to the devil or evil spirits, but anything that goes against the Holy's Spirit work in general. I could be wrong in this assertion but that has been my interpretation.

That's what this viewpoint asserts, I suppose. I think it tries to find its basis on the fact that Jesus came for the Jew first and then for the Gentile, as scripture states. This in by no way means that he did not come at all for the Gentile. He was sent that NONE should perish but that ALL should be saved, and the scriptures are very clear on this. For me this is a non issue except in its obvious error. Why anyone would entertain it except to impose a false superiority of Jew over Greek (I'm repeating my words from a previous post here) is beyond me. I agree, it is extremely disappointing that anyone would come up with this, but this desire to create an esoteric position is nothing new what it comes to human nature, I'm afraid.

Indeed. Many misunderstandings have occurred, and while some try to unpick the confusion, more pile in with their opinions on what they think is going on. I don't think you are asserting what the title of this states, but challenging it as a statement itself. The focus shifted from the Words of Jesus applying to Christians to the move of the Spirit among the gentiles testifying those words to us. Next we pit the Holy Spirit against the Word of God, for some reason, as if the two PERSONS don't go hand in hand together as part of the Trinity. But why even assume such a ridiculous position? Well Now we come to: cessationists and the steering of post after post to this focal point; to 'demonstrate' arguments which are merely attacks by assumption upon assumption of what it is one must have meant and so on and so forth. A lot of reading things the way one wants to, so that one can respond with a reply that has been well thought out and honed and shaped and extremely ready to hand before the answer is even given. This has all been a great big: "By the way, I'm absolutely correct and if you don't agree then I shall simply put a label on you." I agree with what you stated in your o.p, that the statement contained in the title of this thread is in complete error. If we could all get back on track and take a proper look at what you so clearly laid out, I'd enjoy this discussion thoroughly.

Then in future, please the lens of clarity. If I tell you to be careful about what you say to me, you may very well take it the same way. Many things are good for me - and if you would have seen my words through the lens of trying to understand something, instead of trying to fan an argument or seeking to bash someone for their point of view just because it doesn't sit well with me - it would be very good for you too. God bless you, my dear

Oh my goodness, yes! I had never thought about it in that way before. Of course, many of the sins there are have their root in pride of some form. So, naturally, it sets itself against grace and forgiveness even more than all the other sins. The person under its influence figures they don't need anything like that - too proud What we would do without a God of grace I have no clue!

This corruption had its source in the traditions that the church held to at that time. He was against the church's adherence to tradition over scripture. Religion for religion's sake, to control the general body of people, as you say. The religious spirit exerting it's power. That's how I interpreted it, at least.

I agree. We should all be very careful indeed. Let us not make traps for one another. Or see threats where there are none. If I have misunderstood something, feel free to point it out. No need to be hostile about it.

I think we ought to be very careful about claiming to know how to rearrange scripture. All scripture is God-breathed, by His Spirit. He knows best. Compared to him, none of us know anything at all, except that He reveals it to us through His Word by His Spirit. Edit: I write this not as a condemnation, but in light of recent posts that seem to posit that the scriptures are mis-ordered somehow.

I'm just so surprised that we are so ready to disagree and point fingers. So you cannot agree because you have disagreed in the past? Again, I'll leave it up to him to confirm or refute these 'allegations'. Just because a person holds a point of view does not mean they are in complete error. All of our knowledge is incomplete. Now we see as though through a mirror darkly, but when we with unveiled faces behold His face we are being changed from glory to glory. We grow, and we all have the potential to do so. I am not a cessationist, so some may hold me in complete error. They are free to do so. But do we have to contend and blame each other even when we hear truth from one another? Really???

I'm obviously not getting either The New Testament is not a blank page, and is so ordered as God ordained it to be. Next we're going to be dictating to Him how gravity works, or the nature of light as it should be, and the properties of dark matter as we would prefer them to exist. Question or try to refute one part of God's Word and you may as well refute it all.

Truth. What Enoob presented, which is also scripture, is also Truth. The two agree. They are truth

A fly leaf??? That's some description.

First of all, I am not a cessationist. Secondly, my authority is not man's tradition but God's Word. While I respect a high intellect, it cannot tower that of God's, who states that His foolishness is for more wise than all of man's wisdom. The Spirit of God will ALWAYS testify to the Word of God. I am not after intellectual debate, I am after truth. Truth impresses me, however simple or complex in the way it presents itself.

Then let us all agree, and not pit ourselves against each other, but together seek out the truth that is God and His Word. Again, I'm sure Enoob is more than capable of speaking for himself, but I highly doubt that he views his relationship with Christ as the simple self gain of mental ascent. My feeling is that you both have misunderstandings with one another. I could be wrong, you may understand each other perfectly. But from what I know he is not argue anything simply to be in it to win it. We all must be watchful and on the alert because the enemy WILL try and lie to us. We need to look out for each other, and build one another up in the most holy faith.

I agree. I also agree that: 2 Corinthians 3:6 He has qualified us [making us sufficient] as ministers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not of the letter [of a written code] but of the Spirit; for the letter [of the Law] kills [by revealing sin and demanding obedience], but the Spirit gives life. John 1:1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and [b]the Word was God Himself. Christ is the Word of Life. I too worship the Author and I praise Him for such a concrete, incontestable way of communicating Himself to us. He alone declares the end from the beginning. He is faithful and true.

I'll leave that for him to confirm or deny. I am not a cessationist (and anyway, I don't like labels, they separate us in unnecessary ways), but so far I can only agree with what Enoob has stated. I don't see him denying the Holy Spirit, I see him testing the spirits to see if they are indeed from God. I'm sure we can all agree that that is a safe and wise thing to do.

He can speak for himself, but I don't see him excluding the Holy Spirit. What I am surprised by is that we would have to argue for the INCLUSION of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit Himself testifies of the WORD. He gives us direction through dreams and visions which all point to the Word of God. If any dream or vision did not line up with the word of God, however benign it might seem, I would question its truth, its veracity, and definitely its source. The word of God is our protection against the counterfeit, because the enemy is banking on the fact that we will act simply just because something looks and feels good. If you know he can appear as an angel of light, wouldn't you want a way to make sure either way? God has given us that way. If in doubt, check it out, if not line don't waste your time.

Great. I'm sure I'll agree with him. We must know scripture in order to reject non scriptural ideas, definitely no argument from me there either. Knowing 'things?' Things of God? Yes we must learn many things from God. Yes indeed, we all perish from lack of knowledge, especially knowledge obtained by understanding the Word of God. Both by God's Word and His Spirit are we able to separate conjecture and lie from truth and certainty. After all, the Lord Jesus chose to defeat the enem when He was in the wilderness thusly: by quoting the Word of God. That's how we defeat the lie. Right?

I'm sure they must have been guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit testifies of the Word of God. He is the one that reveals scripture to us, by His illumination. That's how we know He is the Spirit of God, and not a counterfeit spirit. He points to the Word. In the beginning, before everything, was the Word. That's how the writers of scripture were guided by the Holy Spirit and what they were directed to by Him. Nothing exists without God's Word, including faith and therefore conversion. That's why we look for it when someone testifies of anything concerning the Lord. He always backs Himself up with His word. He has even magnified it above His Name, as He states in Psalm 136. I believe He does this for the very reason of protecting His people against counterfeit spirits or words. Bless you

There is literally nothing wrong with being a scribe. The scribes studied the Word of God. The scribes that were reffered to in Jesus' time on earth were judged by the Lord as being hypocrites. However I think you will find that it is completely possible that there were some scribes at that time who were not hypocritical. I don't see anything hypocritical in saying that we are ALL subject to the word of God. You can have the Word of God written in your heart as well as written in the bible but it MUST be the word of God or it profits nothing. No one is against the Spirit of God bearing witness to the Word, what Enoob is simply stating is that it takes God's Word to convert a person, not just a spiritual experience, and that believing such a thing is a danger. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God go hand in hand, we should not be choosing between them but relying upon them both. Why are people trying to pit them against each other? They are part of the Trinity, they are as one. Why are people having a problem with that???