ProphecyKid

Again, you are confusing "eternal life" with "living forever." Sinners will live forever, but they don't have eternal life. "Eternal life" is a person. Jesus is eternal life. it is having Him living within in you in the person of the Holy Spirit. Don't you see all of the literary gymnastics that needs to be done to support this belief. First you have to say that living forever is different to eternal life. Again I bring John 3:16 Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life. So now you need to define what it means to perish and how can something that is living forever perish. And also what does everlasting life mean. The use of the conjunction "but" means that it is the opposite. So the opposite of Perish in this verse, is everlasting life. So how does that work?

Based on the majority view on this thread we may need to edit the bible a little bit. OLD: Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NEW: Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is eternal life in torment; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I guess both the saved and the lost would have eternal life.

How I understand it, and this could be easily verified by looking at the ages that men lived after the flood, the average lifespan of men was reduced to 120 years. Abraham, Moses all of these guys lived to around 120 years. Then later on Danielle's time, man's average lifespan was further reduced to 70 years.

You are not using any reasoning. Both myself and donfish06 have used good common sense and reasoning along with the scriptures to prove our points. Your answer to Sodom and Gomorrah still burning is that "perhaps" they are burning in another realm. Well then its clear that you don't know. If you don't know then how can you be so sure that your understanding is correct. Yes you cannot address or refute any of the points raised, you just use the talking point that we are twisting scripture. What is your answer to Johm 3:16, what does it mean to perish? What does it mean when it says in Psalms 37 that into smoke the wicked shall consume away. How does the lake of fire keep burning when God creates a brand new heaven and a new earth and all the former things are passed away. Instead of accusing us of twisting scripture, address these points. But you can't do it, cant you.

Eternal destruction... a destruction that lasts for eternity? Eternal punishment... a punishment that lasts for eternity? Like I said, I believe in a real hell, but I do not believe it will last for eternity. To burn for eternity would require eternal life, and there is only one way to have that. Eternal life and living forever are not the same thing. Jesus is eternal life. Eternal life means at its least, being made alive spiritually with the very life of God within you. It is more like a quality of life than length of life. Jesus is the personification of eternal life. Sinners will live forever without eternal life and according to Jesus will go into eternal punishment. That is straight from the word of God as demonstrated in the quote above. So if you don't believe in eternal punishment, you are disagreeing with the Bible. How do you explain the eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah which is set up as an example of what will take place in the end.

Eternal destruction... a destruction that lasts for eternity? Eternal punishment... a punishment that lasts for eternity? Like I said, I believe in a real hell, but I do not believe it will last for eternity. To burn for eternity would require eternal life, and there is only one way to have that. You are 100% Correct Brother. How just and how fair would God be to punish someone for all eternity who only lived for 16 years and did not accept him and the 80 year old man who grew up in church but spend his life as a wolf in sheep's clothing get the same reward. Punishment for eternity is not fair and is not just. How does a human being get the same punishment as the devil himself which an eternal, everlasting hell would be. And even in addition to the excellent points you made earlier. In order for one to be eternally punished, one must be given eternal life. Eternal Life is ONLY the reward of the saved, not the lost. Immortality is only given to the saved, not the lost. Explain to me how a mortal man can be punished for all eternity. And this goes against the entire meaning of death. Punished for eternity would never lead to death. Also the bible says: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. All of this suggest there would be an end to their existence and they would not just be burning forever. Final Point. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. When God recreates the new heaven and new earth, he must also by definition get rid of the lake of fire since it is taking place on the old earth. Can cannot recreate a perfect world like it was in creation, with the lake of fire still burning on the side. In Revelation 21 and 22, in the description of the new heaven and new earth, we don't see the lake of fire being mentioned anywhere. God must get rid of everything that was on the earth before to recreate the world for us to inhabit.

Here is the problem evolution as opposed to creation. Evolution requires that everything must happen by chance and every link in the very long complex chain has to be proven. Just because you might have a piece of evidence for evolution, its not enough to prove it as a fact. Now in creation you don;'t need to have all the facts. Since God is above science and is a all powerful being, it means he can do things that are not scientifically possible. He can create life with an atmosphere which has oxygen, whereas, without God, an atmosphere with oxygen cannot support life. Without God, how can life even come to be formed?

Those who are openly opposed to God who do not claim to be Christians do not need to be judged first, because it is obvious where they stand. But first I would say, that the no judgement is really for God's knowledge, since he already knows. So he is not judging for him to find out. He is doing this judgement for all of the angels and heavenly host and for all of the saved who would eventually be able to look through the books to be able to say that his judgement is true and just. So remember at the second coming of Christ the dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive in Christ will join them and meet the Lord in the air. So then, before Jesus comes there has to be some sort of judgement to determine who the dead in Christ truly are and who the alive in Christ are. While God knows who those people that are posing as Christians are, the angels may not know because they angels have specific tasks and don't watch over every single person. God then does this judgement at the house of God which is made up of all of those who accept him or claim to truly accept him, to find out who are the genuine ones and who are not. Let me share this with you: Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now this parable is very relevant. Take away this simple fact. Many were invited to this wedding feasts, which represents the second coming of Christ, but not all accept. Before the Son is announced and the wedding begins, all of those who have accepted are checked to ensure they have the right garment. Now all of those who did not accept the invitation are not checked. Only those who did are checked. Dare I say only those who accept Jesus are checked. However, not all of them will have the proper garment. The garment is the righteousness of Christ. So among all of them a seperation has to made to determine those who should partake of the wedding feasts and those who are not appropriately attired, and they would be cast out. So when Jesus comes back, those who are truly dead in Christ and those who are truly following Christ and are alive would be determined beforehand so that all the heavenly host would know that indeed, these are the people who should be saved.

No because I don't believe in a millennial Kingdom on earth. Why would God go back to a system where the blood of bulls and goats atoned for sin after his son had already been offered as a sacrifice which the bible says is once and for all? If the bible says it is a once and for all sacrifice, then why should we believe God would go back on his work and reinstitute an old system of sacrifices which is null and void.

The text 70 weeks is cut of or determined for Israel to do a list of things. What gives us the impression that they would actually do those things?

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. That's what I understand it to mean. In the context of this verse do you believe Jesus was under the law? Consider this verse at well. Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

At the second coming of Christ the dead in Christ will be risen. So the second coming ushers in the first resurrection. The words rapture means to be caught up or the catching away. So both those who are resurrected and the living who are righteous will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Also when Christ comes the wicked living shall be slain just from the very presence of Jesus. Revelation 20 is an actual continuation of revelation 19 although some of the chapters are not sequential. Revelation 19 shows Jesus coming back to the earth in respect to what will happen to the beast, false prophets and all their followers who are lost. Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (the wife or the bride of Christ is the church/everyone that would be saved) The wedding feasts is the second coming as seen in many parables by Jesus. Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. So Revelation 19 here talks about the beast and his alliance and they are all slain. Then comes Revelation 20 which says what happens to Satan and therefore introducing the start of the 1000 year period. It mentions a few verses later the first resurrection. It does not mention however the dead in Christ being raised but all John says is that he sees people who were dead before with Christ. Now that is why the previous scriptures from I Thess 4 and I Cor 15 are important. Revelation 19 speaks of the second coming in relation to the wicked but those other passages speaks of the second coming in relation to the righteous. So looking at how Revelation 19 ends with the beast and his allies all being slain, then who would be alive during the 1000 years? . The dead in Christ are not in heaven now. The verses I mentioned before states that the dead are sleeping in the dust of the ground. Another one: Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. The spirit does return to God at death, but it is not the definition of spirit you are thinking of. You are thinking of spirit in terms of another form of existence which has consciousness but the bible does say the dead know nothing. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The spirit that returns to God is the breathe of life which God breathed into man (Genesis 2:7) to make him alive. When you die that is removed. Yes they did. Revelation mentioned the first resurrection. Now if it mentioned a FIRST resurrection, then it obviously means there is a SECOND resurrection. If there was only one resurrection it would have just said The Resurrection. The people who Satan is deceiving are the people who are raised in the second resurrection upon whom the second death has full power unlike those who rise in the first resurrection. These people are then deceived by the devil and he convinces then that they are able to take the city. Then God would judge them and cast them into the lake of fire.

We all have laws that govern how we live in our various countries. Now lets say you are driving in a place and the law says the speed limit is 60MPH but you are doing 70MPH. The police (officer of the law) stops you. At that point you know you are in trouble because you are in violation of the law. At that point you are supposed to pay the penalty for it. But the police decides to let you of with a warning. In essence, the police now gives you grace. You do not have to pay the penalty for violating the law anymore. You Are Free! Being under the law is being in the state where you sin which comes from the violation of the law, is not removed and is held against you, and you are due to pay the penalty for it. Going back to the traffic analogy a bit, the only person who would not need grace from the police officer would be the person who was perfect according to state and traffic law. But we know that none of us are perfect, so the only way for us to be saved is through grace. Therefore, even in the OT salvation was always by grace. People who do not understand salvation say that in the OT they were saved by law and in the NT we are saved by grace but grace is the only way through which we can be saved. When Paul and many other writers mention the law they are speaking of the writings of Moses in general. Based on the context they can be referring to a various part of the law. You're understand of what the law is speaking about here could be right because it was only by doing the act of making sacrifices that they could have received justification for their sins. No one in the OT was justified by keeping the 10 commandments. You must offer a sacrifice for your sin and that is how you were justified. Somewhere along the line as seen in the time of Jesus the jews started believing that by their keeping of the law they could get salvation and this is why Paul had such a strong stance against the law being seen for that purpose. The law was never intended for that, but they began having a self righteous attitude and so it became a burden being placed on the people because of this false mindset.

Look at it from this angle. Here is what we know for sure: In John 14 1-3 Jesus says that he is going to heaven to prepare a place for us and when he comes again he will receive us unto himself so that where he is (heaven) there we would be. We know that according to Revelation 21 the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth after the 1000 years after the wicked are destroyed and after God recreates a new heaven and new earth. We know that Jesus comes before the 1000 year period begin as his coming is described at the end of Revelation 19 and we see the millennium begin in Revelation 20. We know that many times Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. If we can agree on these things my question therefore is this. When is Jesus going to fulfill the promise of John 14: 1-3 to take us where he is to the place prepared for us, if at his second coming, he is going to set up a kingdom here on earth during the 1000 years and then after the 1000 years the New Jerusalem comes down to earth. It means we ain't going to heaven. Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. As long as this current world stands, would it not be impossible for Jesus to go against his own word and set up a kingdom here. Now when the heaven and earth is recreated then you can make a case for that, but until then why would Jesus set up a kingdom here? Also the promise says that he is going to prepare a place for us, and it is only when he comes again he will receive us there. So obviously the place he is preparing is not here on earth. And it is only when he comes again we go to that place. All the scriptures that people use to favor a millennial kingdom are scriptures they assume do so. Ezekiel 38 does not mention any time period. And Ezekiel also wrote during the period when Israel was still in captivity and God was preparing them to get ready to go back to Jerusalem to rebuild their own city and temple. So the idea of a millennial kingdom could just be a stretch and not actually what the bible is teaching. If you start from the things you know for sure in the bible, a millenial kingdom does not make sense.