ajchurney

Brian, first of all, I play guitar also! The answer is that what you see in the NT is what is called "believer's baptism". People hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and part of the positive response and acceptance of the Gospel as truth is to be baptized in water, which graphically portrays the death, burial, and raising of Christ. By doing this act, a person is choosing to both identify themselves as a believer in Jesus Christ, and to symbolically put their own old, sinful life to burial and be raised up into a new life in Christ. The true baptism is spiritual, in which the Holy Spirit enters, changes, and dwells inside the believer, and also makes that person a true member of the "body of Christ" which is His real church on earth. Therefore, we are both "in Christ" (his body) and "Christ is in" us (by the Holy Spirit). An infant can be put through a ceremony, but an infant can not choose Christ as his personal savior. The water baptism only has meaning in the context of its spiritual reality, which is as I described, according to the scriptures. It's never a ceremony or the water that saves, but the answer of a person's conscience towards God, and a commitment, therefore, to Jesus Christ, resulting in the baptism by the Spirit of God: you in Him, and Him in you. Hope this clarifies, Andy

Connor, That was a very thoughtful and unusually insightful reply to the man from Ireland. Yes, if one is to have a hope of salvation in ignorance of Christ, it has to be based upon standing before Jesus postmortem and demonstrating a submissive, responsive attitude towards the light of truth that one did receive. There is no way "around" Christ to get to the Father, so one has to theologically find room for this or its just another human, religious idea that did not originate with the Spirit. The clear message of the Gospel is that one must repent and place total trust in the sacrificial death of Christ and the proof of the resurrection. This opens the door to regeneration. Of course, the whole discussion is centered on NOT having heard the Gospel! I appreciate you pointing out that the apostles nowhere state that "ALL are going to hell apart from specifically responding to the Gospel!" Praise Gog that this does not reduce the Gospel as the "good news" that it is, because it is the power of God unto salvation to every man! Anyone who is truly born anew wants everyone to have this indescribable blessing, both for what it is to us now, and for the amazing promise it holds for our future in heaven. Even if some will pass muster with Jesus at His judgement seat postmortem, our only hope of total fulfillment and entering into the new covenant blessing in this life is the Gospel. There is an aspect of the whole discussion that just now strikes me. It is easy to so emphasize heaven as our future, that you get this "golden ticket" mentality, and endlessly debate who gets or doesn't get the "golden ticket". What we receive in this life (a new and living spirit, and the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit) is so amazing that it is worth EVERYTHING! We receive a piece of heaven on earth now, as a guarantee of the future entire inheritance. Whatever we have to do to share this with a sick and desperate world is worth it all. Maybe we need to think of it like this: New Life now is the best thing anyone can get, and BONUS....it's forever!!!! Just some thoughts, Andy

Thank you for these kind words Andy. I have enjoyed this thread much more than some other threads (science forum) because of what you said-nobody is bullying anybody to believe as they do and no one is accusing anyone of promoting false doctrines. We are all stating our viewpoints and discussing this maturely in love and respect. This is the way God intended for it to be, and this is the way it should be done. Anything less cannot be pleasing to His heart. Oh, by the way, how does one prepare to be martyred? Just curious to see your thoughts here. (As for me, I believe in owning guns, but I don't believe all my brothers and sisters believe in that.) I have had a taste of being accused of promoting false doctrine, on this site, just by asking a question. The guy changed words in my question added words and changed my question into a statement then accused me of making the statement. So I agree its a good discussion. i hope and expect it is one of many civil and thoughtful discussions we can all have Big Blessings, Andy

Wow brother. You blew me away with this Christ honoring post. Thank you for reminding us all what our priorities should be. By the way, did you notice the scripture verse I have below my photo? What do you think about these words our Lord gave to us in light of this discussion? Spock, I tend to find the most agreement with the position that God has consistently made a way of escape for the righteous in any time of direct judgement, or what we would call "the wrath of God being poured out." Noah, Lot, the Isrealites in Egypt, they all demonstrate how God protects and delivers the righteous in such times. The scriptures, in regards to end times, consistently describes the persecution of saints, and the horrific physical judgments upon the unrepentant and those who take the mark. I guess I cannot categorically say whether or not the persecution and executions of the saints is one of the things that God makes an escape for, in reference to your verse. A look at Rev 7:9-17 would require that an innumerable multitude of people from EVERY people group on earth would get saved and martyred after an assumed rapture. This is difficult to imagine, but not impossible. Any sort of examination of the NT, and early church history would cause a rational person to question whether martyrdom is something that God makes "escape" for!!! All of the 12 apostles except John were martyred (and they tried to boil him in oil!), and many of the finest saints who have lived, even in modern times, have either been brutalized or martyred for the cause of Christ. To lay down your life for the Greatest One seems a great honor in the eyes of God. I am in no way whatsoever saying you go and make it happen! However, we all must die at some point, and life is fleeting (more fleeting the older I get!!). Sorry if I am saying too much here, I guess I can summarize by saying it is God's pattern to make escape from episodes of His wrath being meted out, but much less His history to keep even His most prized soldiers from giving their life on the field of spiritual battle! It seems that our God is rather dramatic, and loves giving the hero's welcome! Check this out! Acts 7:54-60 Stephen the Martyr 54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. NKJV Oh ya baby!! Jesus SAT DOWN at the right hand, but he STOOD UP to welcome Steven!! Call me nuts, or radical, or whatever, but I will gladly give my life if it is His perfect will for this Jesus! WOW!!!!!!

Thanks Steven!! So true that religion endlessly debates goodness, when in reality we are just arguing by comparison of one human to another and degrees of sin. If Christ is the standard, His perfection makes us all look like....well....poop! Isaiah said all our righteousness is like a woman's period rags....not attractive!! To others reading this post, before you try to prop up one sinner as being "good" compared to another, you might want to put on some Holy Spirit goggles instead of our typical human religious goggles. The truly strange thing is not that God is so mean and unjust as to send a soul to hell, but that a God as awesome and perfect as He is stooped down to give his only earthborn son to be brutally killed in our place, in YOUR place (its intensely personal after all). The truth that a rebellious sinner, of whatever degree of sin they engage in, can receive a real and life-changing pardon and transformation such as is offrered to us in the New Covenant. The true miracle is the possibility of reconciliation and relationship with God Almighty through the amazing and incredible death, ressurection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. If we were half as amazed by this as we should be, it puts a better perspective on things. Ignorance of Christ is a tragedy for humanity that should pull on our hearts, stir up our desire for action, and demand something from our pocketbooks. If it is possible in the loving mercy of Christ to pardon sinners in their ignorance of Him, without violating His word or His Holy justice, we can trust Him to do it. If someone can more clearly demonstrate this from scripture, apart from opinions or simple human feelings, wonderful! Anything else......just wouldn't be truth! In Him, Andy

wow! gray wolf, I just found this thread, and man did this thing blow up or what?!? I am not sure how much I can add to this discussion, very difficult....but I will try! 1st, check out Rom 2:14-16 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. NKJV This seems to speak to the idea of a person responding to the light of truth they have, even if it is the bare conscience. Personally, I believe that God responds to true seekers of truth and light by bringing them more light. Evidence of this is the countless instances of missionaries being divinely guided to particular places, resulting in some or many joyfully receiving the gospel. I am not trying to present this as an absolute, but one can only imagine how often the Holy Spirit has prodded someone to go preach the gospel somewhere and they basically refused, or wrote off the unction as not coming from God. I know that scripture says God's perfect will is that none should perish, yet many choose to reject the truth that is well able to save them. This is the man's fault, not God's. The real rub here is accountability....how can God hold someone accountable in their ignorance?? Perhaps the passage above at least sheds some light on that, but I understand it isn't fully satisfying. There has been much heated discussion lately about "good people" who are ignorant of Christ and what God does about that. Is any man capable of judging what is "good" in the sight of God?? Jesus says there is NONE good but God alone, and there are many scriptures that support His statement!! Good deeds can truly evidence, or be the fruit of a changed life, but God alone knows the thought and intent of one's heart in their outwardly good deeds. Whether someone is acting in true selfless love only God knows, only God can judge. Jesus certainly had no qualms about revealing the intents of the hearts of the Pharisees, but it isn't always given us to know. I agree with the assessment that God is perfectly loving and perfectly just at the same time. This explains the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!! He did what we could not do for ourselves and made the way to be perfectly forgiven. Beyond a knowledge of and surrender to Christ, I certainly would not want to try to slide into heaven by means of ignorance! I am not saying its not possible, as earlier stated, but Christ is the only clearly revealed way. This is supposed to highly motivate us to preach Him to every tongue, tribe, and nation! Blessings to all crazy, interesting posts everyone! In Him, Andy

Thank you so much! it means alot to me because when I was younger, I alienated many people with my rudeness! I love truth so dearly, but my wife says it has taken the Lord a long time to knock off some of my rough edges!! There oft times seems needless debate caused by a lack of understanding between saints who emphasize the intent and spirit of truth and those who emphasize the technical detail and exactness of language in expressing that truth. There is a marriage of these two that I call "the scholar of the Spirit". I suppose it is a goal of mine to walk in a balance of loving grace and sharp, uncompromising truth. Jesus did it like no other person ever has. I love His words, AND the way He delvered them. Paul is the junior example to me, a sharp man who knew Jesus deeply and loved Him and His church passionately. Many Blessings, Andy

Spock, I believe the way to prepare for possible martyrdom is to 1st truly love and trust Jesus Christ with everything you are, everything you own (its really His and He lets us steward it!), everything you think, and everything you do. I realize that nobody does this perfectly, but we have to understand that God commands us to make that our intention and goal. If we aim for the bullseye, sometimes we hit it. If we aim in the general direction of the target, we may never hit it!! 2nd, I believe that the serious Christian has to come to grips with the fact that Jesus promised persecution to all who live Godly in Him, and that Christianity is an endurance event of life, not a sprint, yet all by His grace. 3rd, I believe it is important to ask God how to love not our own life, and how to not be rooted and grounded in this life, but in Him and in His promise of everlasting life, yet seizing the opportunity of this life to expand His kingdom on earth. I think that too much of modern, western churchianity is about living to have a certain standard of living, a comfortable, no problems life here and now instead of having an attitude like the apostle Paul, "to live is Christ and to die is GAIN"! You have to have the realities of heaven and relationship with Christ firmly rooted before you can live life with that kind of attitude. I suppose that what I meant by my earlier post is that Christ empowers us to live for Him through the storms and trials and difficulties. The early church blossomed under intense and brutal persecution, of which most of us personally know nothing at all. I think it wise not to count on a total escape (pre-trib rapture) from what is to come. I believe that mindsets are the foundations of actions. Preparing for persecution and martyrdom starts with a right mindset towards the possibility. Whether you prepare by arming yourself or hunkering down in a fortified bunker is another subject altogether!

Another example of great answers here in Worthy! I am still new to the forum, and have been an avid student of the scriptures for 21 years, having also grown up in church and private Christian schools, but falling into hedonism for quite a while beginning in the teen years. I was genuinely born of the Spirit in 1992. I was looking for a forum of real Christian discussion and am finding it here! Thank you Lord! Fez, As you obviously know, context is the absolute first rule of biblical interpretation. Many verses have larger, over-arching doctinal implications and applications, but we always, always have to first look at the verse in its native context, which is what "other one" astutely encouraged. Paul argues any doctrinal point like the lawyer that he was, and you are right that he gives answers here about questionable practices regarding food and drink, but in doing so, he appeals to a larger principle, "whatever is not from faith is sin". Of course, this idea is not to be found in this place alone, and has parallels, though I love the way he uniquely and tersely states it here. It is a profound truth and wonderful! To me, it is important to understand WHY it is true. It is true because in our flesh dwells no good thing, and the Spirit is at enmity with the flesh and its works. Faith is the divine connection and trust in the Spirit who indwells, guides, and empowers the believer in Christ. It's like faith is the plug into the divine grace, and if it is not plugged in to that power, then it is not of God, and therefore of the fallen flesh, and affected by the sinful nature. So, if we walk in the Spirit (by faith!) we will NOT fulfill the lusts (sin) or the flesh! It all agrees and works together so wonderfully (of course it does......it is His word!) In Him, Andy

I just want to applaud a good discussion of end time theology. Too often Christians fail to speak (write in this case) as a Christian should when getting into these controvercial and difficult subjects. Here is a couple of thoughts: You can be hoping for rapture but fail to be prepared to be martyred, but if you are prepared to be martyred, you will be good for rapture! No matter what, we need to be found FAITHFUL. We all need to be about the Father's business, awake in the Spirit, and working and living for the Kingdom of Christ. It's a good thing always to search and meditate on the scriptures for all our answers, no matter how this pan-tribs out! Blessings to all, Andy

DRS81, Really interesting stuff! Obviously, there is no lack of suggestions for you in the thread! When it comes to any sort of manifestation, I think that the scripture indicates that we need discernment. This is a spiritual gift and not mere intellectual analysis. I am guessing that when folks have asked you how the sword makes you "feel", they were really wanting to know what you discerned. At least I hope that is it, because our simple human emotional feelings are pretty worthless, even damaging, when it comes to supernatural things. If you have a healthy and vital prayer life with the Lord, always keeping yourself fed and grounded in the Word, God will certainly help you discern by the Spirit what is going on. If it is demonic, then God has given you authority over that as His child and a saint of the Lord. Simply rebuke it and command it to cease. If it is of the Lord, then He has a definite purpose in mind and wants you to know what that is. God is never, ever random or silly. Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and listen to no other. As you seek His guidance in scripture and prayer, He WILL speak, He promises to! Many Blessings, Andy

I agree with the spirit and intent of what you are saying. Man looks at outward things, but God looks inwardly at the heart. I think that the post is just reverently trying to seek the wisdom of the scriptures regarding our Lord and God. The scriptures inform the heart about what is right so that there can exist "a right place" for your heart to be in. I think you are cautioning people not to split hairs and miss the point, but I also think you have to be careful about simply "following your heart" when it comes to the Almighty because absolutely everything in His Word is there for a reason. It is not unwise to seek an accurate understanding of the word in regards to His Name, or anything else about Him. I do agree that He knows when we are talking to Him, even if it is out of some incomplete understanding of Him. Some groups go way overboard on pronunciations and so forth.

Short and sweet John!! lookingforanswers, there always has to be a balance between rights and responsibilities Rights without responsibility is chaos Responsibility with no rights is totalitarian communism There is no perfect society because there are no perfect people The question of how a devout Christian is called to influence the governing entities of any nation can only really be answered one person at a time. I know we are called to be salt, light, and witnesses of Jesus Christ. I guess HOW you carry that out is.........your right.........oh, and your responsibility.

My understanding is that Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" was the only book actually fully penned by him and this book was finished early in his life long before his imprisonment. All other books bearing his name are rewritten by his followers from careful notes taken at his many teaching sessions before his imprisonment. As far as I know, the Chinese kept Watchman quite isolated during his imprisonment. The Chinese are MUCH more brutal and restrictive than were the Romans. I have read many of the books as well as an exhaustive biography of Nee. He was quite a man of God! As far as Paul, you have to take into account that he was a Roman citizen, a distinction that afforded him much better conditions and more freedoms within his jailings and confinements, except when the jailors were not aware of this fact, as at Phillipi originally. The officials were terrified when they found out Paul and Silas were citizens and had been harshly treated. I agree with the other posts and summarize the many points by saying that the Holy Spirit is the true author and preserver of the Scriptures, and Paul was a mighty vessel able and willing to be the tool and weapon of God (in Spiritual things!). The physical details are indeed interesting, as they should encourage us how real and caring God is, and what lengths He goes to exalt His word.

There are many good posts here, and helpful to understand the Hebrew origin of the Name as revealed in the Torah (1st 5 books of OT). I would like to add that Jesus came to reveal the Father in a much more personal way....."If you have seen ME, you have seen the Father!" Also, "There is only ONE NAME given under heaven by which men can be saved" and that is the name of Jesus! Many of the names of God in the OT describe specific aspects of His character and being...even the YHVH (" I AM that I AM") is more of a description of Himself as the self existing one or similar. He even names Himself according to His devoted followers at times ("I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and others). The name Jesus has a meaning also in its Hebrew original version (Jesus is a version of the greek, pronounced "Yay-soos") of "God is salvation" or "God saves". Of all the revealed names, it seems that the name of Jesus is the one that the Father has put all authority in. It is in that name that God ordains that prayers are heard and answered, and miracles and deliverance from all the power of the enemy is available. It is also that name that all of satan's wiles are set against to defame and attempt to confuse and water down our understanding of Who that name stands for. There is much to glean and learn from studying the names of God, and whole books are written on the subject. I just wanted to point to the one name that is "the name above every name that is named" JESUS!!