inchrist

Circumcision of our private parts was never a requirement of faith in the Old and New Testament. However you misunderstand Christ....he was the Law made flesh. I don't know how anyone can accept Christ practised necromancy. The summon of the dead is forbidden. Christ can not violate any of the laws. That is a biblical fact.

Immortality is something to be obtained, not something inherent upon death. Rewards are only given when Christ comes again. who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality (Romans 2:6-7). This is why the book of life comes into play. If you are saved; your name is inscribed in the book of life. So God remembers you in thought , but you are certainly not alive in the hereafter. You don't receive eternal life upon death. Romans 2:6-7 makes it clear eternal life is only received at Christ second coming. Because that is biblical faith. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1 Corinthians 15:16-18 How can something perish if it has eternal life upon death? Our faith calls for the sole belief in the resurrection to receive immortality not the other way round. Only in thought or in writing. The book of life and then resurrected into existence new 1 Timothy 6:15-16. He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality

Wingnut; off topic comment - but i want to thank you for the manner in your conversation. On topic comment We need to look at the entire teaching of Paul 2 Corinthians 4:11-18 2 Corinthians 5:2–4 And then refer to 1 Corinthians 15 We actually see Paul speaks about the resurrection and not an immortal soul. This conclusion is based on context and cross reference. When we start with 2 Corinthians 4:11 - 18 Paul makes a statement on two notes 1) We look beyond to things we know will be, that which is eternal 2) That we, like Christ will be resurrected, crossed referenced with 1 Thessalonians 4:14 Then Paul carries this thought over to 2 Corinthians 5:2–4 1) Paul desires to put on this 'house' to be clothed with this immortality; this is crossed referenced with 1 Corinthians 15:51 in line with 1 Thessalonians 4:14 Notice in 1 Cor 5:4 so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now notice 1 Cor 15;54 So when this mortal puts on immortality and this corruption puts on inocorruption, then shall be brought to pass the saying, 'death is swallowed up in victory! It's all the same teaching, and the teaching is resurrection. This I found interesting; if we examine the scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. The word bring isn't even in the original NT Greek text. It was added in. I can just as well add the word raise . Which is far more fitting and inline with Paul's teachings For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will raise with Jesus (secomd coming)those who have fallen asleep in him. Further complications with your interpretation John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Christ gives the damning evidence of any idea of immortal soul. Christ will only receive you at the resurrection Christ wouldn't need to receive you unto himself when you are already received with immortal souls, you would be with him already. The resurrection thus becomes simply an after thought.

Can you also please provide facts since Christ came to fulfil the law Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them How did Christ fulfil the law of necromamcy with Moses and Elijah?

There it is again.... Please show me with actual facts this time; where does it state Paul wishes to be naked (disembodied) in the presence of the Lord? 2 Cor 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

How do you jump from immortal souls to Sabbath keeping? What on earth does sabbath keeping have any relation in evidence to prove that immortal souls is correct? 1. Since when is a testimony of a witch, evidence of fact? 2. Vision = NT Greek horama HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708 /horáō, "to see, spiritual and mentally") – a vision (spiritual seeing), focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing). See 3708 (horaō). 12 Occurrences Matthew 17:9 N-ANSGRK: εἴπητε τὸ ὅραμα ἕως οὗNAS: them, saying, Tell the vision to no oneKJV: Tell the vision to no man,INT: tell the vision until that Acts 7:31 N-ANS GRK: ἐθαύμαζεν τὸ ὅραμα προσερχομένου δὲ NAS: it, he marveled at the sight; and as he approached KJV: [it], he wondered at the sight: and INT: marveled at the vision coming near moreover Acts 9:10 N-DNS GRK: αὐτὸν ἐν ὁράματι ὁ κύριος NAS: said to him in a vision, Ananias. KJV: the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And INT: him in a vision the Lord Acts 9:12 N-DNS GRK: ἄνδρα ἐν ὁράματι Ἁνανίαν ὀνόματι NAS: and he has seen in a vision a man KJV: hath seen in a vision a man named INT: a man in a vision Ananias by name Acts 10:3 N-DNS GRK: εἶδεν ἐν ὁράματι φανερῶς ὡσεὶ NAS: saw in a vision an angel KJV: He saw in a vision evidently about INT: He saw in a vision plainly as if Acts 10:17 N-NNS GRK: εἴη τὸ ὅραμα ὃ εἶδεν NAS: as to what the vision which KJV: what this vision which INT: might be the vision which he was Acts 10:19 N-GNS GRK: περὶ τοῦ ὁράματος εἶπεν αὐτῷ NAS: was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit KJV: thought on the vision, the Spirit said INT: over the vision said to him Acts 11:5 N-ANS GRK: ἐν ἐκστάσει ὅραμα καταβαῖνον σκεῦός NAS: I saw a vision, an object KJV: I saw a vision, A certain INT: in a trance a vision descending a vessel Acts 12:9 N-ANS GRK: ἐδόκει δὲ ὅραμα βλέπειν NAS: but thought he was seeing a vision. KJV: thought he saw a vision. INT: he thought moreover a vision he was seeing Acts 16:9 N-NNS GRK: καὶ ὅραμα διὰ τῆς NAS: A vision appeared to Paul KJV: And a vision appeared to Paul INT: And a vision during the Acts 16:10 N-ANS GRK: δὲ τὸ ὅραμα εἶδεν εὐθέως NAS: he had seen the vision, immediately KJV: he had seen the vision, immediately INT: moreover the vision he saw immediately Acts 18:9 N-GNS GRK: νυκτὶ δι' ὁράματος τῷ Παύλῳ NAS: in the night by a vision, Do not be afraid KJV: the night by a vision, Be not INT: night by a vision to Paul Please show with FACT that vision no longer means prophetic sight Not really; the world believes in immortal souls Classical Greek https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/ Egyptology http://www.kheper.net/topics/Egypt/egyptian_soul.htm Islam http://irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/nature_of_soul.htm Hindu http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_death.asp So no the world does not believe you are dead to them.

Yes the vision would be in present tense......because they were actually seeing it Every time that word vision in NT greek is used in the bible It always refers to the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: And given the entire context; Christ left no doubt this is about the raising of the dead - resurrection. However your response made up only 1% of topic 99% of your reply was made up of personal attack That is disporportinate; in fact I could actually ask why do people like yourself come to boards like this to only focus on 1% of the topic and 99% attacking the person? Just a friendly criticism, I don't mean any harm. I would prefer to focus on evidence and 100% on topic

Necromamcy - the supposed practice of communicating with the dead Deut 18 And no one should try to talk with someone who has died. 12 The Lord hates anyone who does these things I wouldn't call that twisting of scripture....that's clear scripture. So now I have to believe Christ practising necromamcy with the disciples.....Christianity is off to a great start here. No, that wasn't Samuel that was a demon disguised as Samuel. God had explicitly cut off communication between Himself (and by extension, His angels) and Saul Please note: 1 Samuel 13:14; 28:6 and Isaiah 59:2 Now I must believe that Samual a holyman; is going to act unilaterally behind God's back? Demons can also do the following 2 cor 11:14 & 15 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works Lastly Saul never really saw samuel. Only witch sees "him." You really going to believe the testimony of a witch summoned the real Samuel? This is not great evidence to prove immortal soul. Going back to the vision of Matthew 17:9 The Bible states; and his face shone like the sun Matt. 17:2 which is exactly how it was after he was glorified when he appeared to the Apostle John Rev. 1:16 God promises that after the resurrection, all the righteous people will shine like the sun Matt. 13:43 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. Vision is what it is, a prophetic spiritual insight into what is going to happen in the future. vision [vizh-uh n] noun the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be:

This is not about my mind made up this is looking at the evidence. The law is very clear about necromancy. Your argument falls on the notion because Christ is the Lord he is allowed to break Gods law? In the midst of his transfiguration vision?

Certainly but Christ is going to break the law doing it.

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer

I didn't say the vision wasnt a real occurrence.... But Moses and Elijah weren't there; it was a vision. A prophetic vision of the resurrection. You are twisting the fundamental meaning of the word vision.

And that's cool, likewise spirit itself is difficult to define....this is not an easy subject. I halfway agree with you, just not the bit you will be with Christ as soon as you shed your mortal body. Immortality throughout scripture is only given at the resurrection for the righteous not before. There is no concept nor phrase of immortal soul in scripture. Try this exercise.....every verse you think speaks of immortal soul; think resurrection. Because that is the fundamental core of what we believe through Christ . The only answer for immortality- resurrection. This is why we preach the good news..... Christ has risen.

No Christ stated it was a vision And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead. (Matthew 17:9) To believe it other than a vision; then many scriptures would become false using this word vision Like Paul had a vision of the new heaven and new earth.

I wish I could say yes but no. You treat soul as an individual component within man; instead of soul as a outer component of man being the whole of man, in other words its freshly. Spirit is an inner component which returns to God but it is not immortal. It does not exist as an individual separate component to be immortal of the body. Immortality is only given body + spirit = soul at the resurrection. None of these components exist individually as immortal after death. The thing is we are only with Christ when we are resurrected "So shall we be with the Lord" and that phrase is only found at Christ return. If we are with the Lord already when we die; then the resurrection is pointless. Youre alive why do you need the resurrection then? Further we are only given this gift of immortality, our reward at Christ's return. Therefore you can not have immortality your gift upon your death, because no where in scripture will you find that.

I get where you coming from but you are still interpreting your thought into it, yout example even proves this. However this is not my thought Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Then it's God who will bring with him the spirits of those who have fallen asleep.

No...look you cant start with that because you now trying to place me in he box of the pharisees, you gotta stop this, you and I both believe in what Jesus stated. It is the ability to listen to what Christ stated is what we at loggerheads about. So in contrast, It is you I dont believe, It is your interpretation I dont believe. John 5:28 & 29 Do not be amazed at this ( Little ironic), for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life ( lazarus), and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment (richman). NO he didnt say he wanted Lazarus to go from the dead No, father Abraham, he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. How about that, there was a Lazarus who was raised and he made no mention of his soul floating about??? Nevertheless Abraham is stating a factual truth in the parable, Christ resurrection. If they werent going to listen to moses and prophets about Christ, how then would the listen if Christ was resurrected. and as history shows, the pharisees didnt did they?

Yes and what He saw was a vision I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. And that vision was the new heavens and new earth, because that is what paradise is continually associated with throughout scripture. Consistency is Key. and by the way as for the thief To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.' Christ didnt go to "paradise" that very day did he?

Then you better repent my dear. Gen 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. Immortal Soul Doctrine: you surely shall not die. No we wont will we Divida, because we have an immortal soul don't we? Gnosticism (immortal Souls) http://gnosis.org/naghamm/zostr-jdt.html versus Scripture “For what is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at his coming?” (I Thess. 2:19). If disembodied souls are able to live and enjoy the presence of God in heaven for eternity, then what is the need of a resurrection? Thank you for shifting our HOPE and JOY to something else. Death takes away life, it does not give life ( Immortal souls). Life is in the resurrection, not death. Please shift our hope and joy BACK to where GOD stated it is to come from, RESURRECTION at the coming of Christ.

in otherwords wingnuts interpretation God will bring with him souls of those who have fallen asleep. Thats not what Scripture teaches at all. Genesis 2:7: “Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Dust (Body) + Breath (spirit) = Soul This means man does not “have” a soul, he is a soul who has a spirit. The soul is the whole man. in otherwords I Thessalonians 4:1 is interpreted as the following God will bring with him the spirits (Breath) of those who have fallen asleep. confirmed by Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Clearly if the the spirit (Breath) returns to God, Christ must come to return the breath to believers. The contextual Background of I Thessalonians 4:13 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. The greek pagans and Gnostics had their hope in immortal souls, We DO NOT have our hope in the doctrine called immortal souls, OUR HOPE is in the RESURRECTION

And did Paul come back reporting seeing the thief or any souls for that matter? You do release Paul taken to heaven was given a eschatological view; a prophetic view of new heaven and new earth?

Next time they state that; you should ask them "How many JW are there again world wide?"

Wayne...you making things personal now. You are obsessing over me and now making me the subject by trying to place me in some kind of box. But if you would like to know I came from Catholicism. Unfortunately that is how fights start by mischaracterizing a person. It's offensive. Can we not have a discussion or do you want to fight? Instead scripture is the subject and focus. His sons come to honor and he does not know it; they are brought low and he does not perceive it" (Job 14:21) "For in death there is NO REMEMBRANCE OF YOU; in the grave who will give you thanks?" (Psalm 6:5). "The DEAD do not praise the LORD, nor any who go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17). "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; in that very day his plans perish" (Psalm 146:4) Now wayne I'm not interested in insults.... please can you harmonize the parable of Lazarus and the rich man with your doctrine with the above verses of the dead. Then explain how the parable is not the resurrection? Again I'll repeat; I'm not interested in further insults. I am interested in you establishing your doctrine to be true and proving mine false first, before making such claims about me.

No he didnt; because Paul had in his thought; not your thought that his "eagerly expect" is connected with his teachings of resurrection. Scripture must interpret scripture if you wish to understand Paul's thinking.

The Greek word paradeisos is used in eschatological terms of restoration, that God will bring about -Isaiah 51:3. It is used again in Revelation 2:7 in connection with the tree of life, to be present on the new earth. There is no suggestion in that verse the term should mean heaven Time is also relative; death refers to an absolute loss of all consciousness. If your consciousness completely ceased today and then you regain consciousness 20 years later; you would experience 20 yrs immediately today the moment you lost consciousness. As for Lazarus; he was carried by angels; exactly describing what occurs with our resurrection. Which is confirmed when you are resurrected opening up your eyes. When scripture repeatedly and clearly states no consciousness no awereness; no knowledge over and over.....the question then needs to ask who really is twisting scripture.