ghtan

I am pleasantly surprised to read this statement of yours to oakwood. But confused at the same time. Why then do you refuse to believe that the date of Jesus' return may be one of those future events that God has not fixed?

Welcome back to the truth, sister! "Cooperating with his grace" seems to me a good way to describe how it works.

Hi there! It was quite a surprise to get a comment after all this time. Anyway, what in the text leads you to regard ch 4-7 as the overview? Why not see ch 4-11 as one long sequence? After all, the seventh seal is not opened until ch 8 and so it seems to me that John is indicating that the narrative in ch 4-7 continues into ch 8. Btw, where do you see the rapture in Revelation? Blessings.

Aah...I am glad we agree now that the point is that God has the prerogative not to reveal the date to us. (I have underlined your statement above.) It means the text does not tell us whether the date has or has not been fixed. There is no deciding whether the NJKV or ESV translation is superior. So you still do not have a text that says that date IS fixed...

It is strange that you should quote John 5:19-20, because I think it actually works against your position. The passage says "the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him ALL THINGS (emphasis mine) that himself doeth." So why did he not show Jesus the timing of his return if it had already been fixed? By the way, if the date had been fixed, it was fixed in the PAST. By admitting that he did not know the date, Jesus was thereby admitting that he did not know a PAST event. How does an omniscient God not know a past event?

OK by me. I leave you to decide the example you want to discuss.

Any translation? NKJV: "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." This is one of the most literal translations. The greek word is tithemi, which Strong's says generally means "to place." Check it out for yourself.

Read Acts 1:7 in the KJV and you will see that the word for 'fixed' is actually 'placed' or 'put'. Jesus was saying that the date of his return is something PUT under God's authority/power. Therefore, what Jesus meant was: (I paraphrase) "That is placed under God's jurisdiction, so mind your own business." It makes better sense of his reply because, why should God having fixed a date be a reason not to tell it to the disciples? That is why they were asking him! In the past, God gave his people dates. E.g. Jeremiah that Judah would be exiled in Babylon for 70 years. So he has demonstrated that he has no problems revealing dates to his people IF HE HAS SET THEM. By the way, I remember now that I pointed out to you that Jesus said "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Crucially, the context there is about truth and THE FUTURE (16:13). So Jesus claimed to know everything God knew. How then did he not know the date of his return if it had been fixed? What do you mean by an "independent use" of his divine attribute? Do you mean that every time he wants to do a miracle, read someone's mind, etc., he has to ask the Father first? That would make him no better than a man! It is what we humans do when we ask God in prayer for something. You are effectively saying that Jesus became fully man zero God!

I think what "some people" think is that if God FOREknows an outcome, it is fixed. Doesn't that stand to reason? If an outcome differs from what God foreknows, then he must have got it wrong. Surely, God does not get things wrong. That said, I am not suggesting God does not fix anything. Of course, he does. For example, he has decided that Jesus will return one day. But he does not have to fix everything associated with that return, e.g. timing.

If you read the commentaries on Philippians, you will find that evangelical scholars agree that 2:5-11 does not mean Jesus gave up any of his divine attributes. (Omniscience is a divine attribute.) What he gave up was his heavenly glory - the KJV puts it well as "he made himself of no reputation" - by coming down to earth and born as a humble human. If you really want another verse that suggests God has not fixed the date of Jesus' return, there is indeed one. But it is no point giving it to you since it is obvious that your mind is fixed on the matter. Anyway, I'd bet you cannot find a verse that says the date of Jesus' return IS fixed...

Are you referring to a universe where the outcome is fixed or not fixed? If the future is fixed, how can my actions have any impact on the outcome? If my actions do have impact, then how can the outcome be already fixed? I see there are others on this thread that see things the way I do, so it is not my own imagination.

I'm sure as God he could prevent Satan from reading his mind. Perhaps you would also want to consider this. When Jesus became incarnate, humanity was ADDED to his divinity. That is why he also behaved liked a human when he was on earth. He was hungry, became tired, etc.. But nothing was SUBTRACTED from his divinity, otherwise he would no longer be God. Giving up anything from his omniscience would be subtracting from his divinity.

Thank you for the word of encouragement.

Actually, it was the practical implications that drew me to this belief. If the future is fixed, then who will be saved is also fixed. In that case, no matter how fervently I pray for or share the gospel with my loved ones, those actions will not matter if it is already fixed that they would not believe. But if the future is not fixed, then those actions can make a difference. Now, as I read the bible with this view, I find God's word actually makes more sense. I am glad I moved on from the traditional view instead of being stuck in it.

Most illustrations cannot portray reality in its entirety. My point was simply that if the future were fixed, our choices do not really make any difference. No physics required. I don't think God lives outside time. What makes you think that? There are problems with that idea. One is with the incarnation. Jesus was only divine before he was incarnate but since then he is both divine and human. If he lives outside time, which is he - only divine or divine and human? He cannot be both. So it is unlikely that God lives outside time. Instead, I too believe that the future does not yet exist and the way God foretells the future is that he decides on certain actions or events he want to bring about and then he does them. God himself tells us that is how he works (Isaiah 48:3). Now, the question is whether God would want to decide on EVERY event that will ever take place. No reason to do so. Therefore, those events he has not decided to fix are still open. And those are probably the majority of events. By the way, even with events God predetermines, he did not decide all of them before the foundation of the earth, as many contend. He also decides on things as history progresses, as Isaiah 48:7 shows. In that case, those parts of the future were obviously still open in the interim.

There are several scripture that suggests God does not know the entire future but I think the clearest is Mark 13:32 which we (I think it was with you) were discussing under a different thread. Jesus was God and he admitted he did not know the date of his return. You cannot get any more plain than that. The usual explanation is that Jesus voluntarily imposed restriction on his omniscience while he was on earth. Besides there being no scriptural backing for this idea, it invites several problems not least that it implies Jesus was not fully God even if only temporarily. Yet, our salvation rests on no less than God being sacrificed for our sins. If the future is not fixed, there is a better solution. I believe God had not fixed the date of Jesus' return and so he did not know the date and hence neither did Jesus. Jesus was merely saying that it was God's prerogative to decide the date; he did not say God knew it already. This solution preserves the full divinity of Jesus. A future that is not fixed allows me to take this view.

Wish that things were as simple as you put it. Then this debate would not have raged over the centuries. Obviously, most people believe there is a big difference between divine foreknowledge and human guesswork and their respective implications for freewill.

You need to explain how this works, otherwise it is self-contradictory and freewill is illusory. It would be like a school teacher telling a student before the exam, "Answer the questions whichever way you like but I know your final marks anyway." The student knows then that his/her marks are fixed no matter how he/she answers the questions.

I think many would consider me an open theist but I see myself as just being logical and trying to make sense of scripture. That said, I think open theism is wrongly portrayed by its opponents. OT simply claims God does not know the future ENTIRELY because God has not FIXED EVERYTHING about the future. The latter reason is vital. And I think they are right. Let's face it; we individually are not crucial to God's overall salvation plan, so why would he want to predetermine our choices? Instead, he lets us decide for ourselves. And logically, whether we want to believe in Jesus should be just the type of choice that he allows us to make for ourselves. Hence God does not know for sure who will be saved.

Hi there closest friend. Your post seems to picture Eve tempting Satan instead of the other way around, though I'm sure that is not what you meant. Anyway, please refer to my reply to Rick Parker. Your position is similar to his. Blessings.

God does not save everyone. That is more directly connected to his power. Yet we do not say it means his power is limited. In the same way, God not knowing everything about the future does not mean his knowledge or power is limited. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the bible that says God knows EVERYTHING about the future. It is just something we believe a God should know. But we should let God be what he tells us he is and not what we want him to be. The case of Adam is crucial. How did God know for sure that Adam would eat the fruit? Only if he knew that Adam would not be able to resist Satan's temptation. But that means God did not design Adam so that he COULD resist Satan's temptation. It is hard then to blame Adam for sinning. Therefore, I don't believe God knew for certain that Adam would eat. Indeed, I believe God hoped that Adam would be obedient and not eat. I believe God did design Adam with the ability to resist Satan's temptation. And he did not impose difficult demands on Adam either. After all, not eating from one tree out of possibly hundreds does not seem like a difficult command to obey. If we did not know the ending, I believe many would expect Adam to be able to obey. Therefore, him eating the fruit was the unexpected outcome. But he did. And so he can be held responsible for his action.

Hi there! If God always knows what we would choose, he must have known that Adam and Eve would succumb to Satan's temptation and eat the fruit. Does that not represent a design flaw? Is it fair for God to blame them then? I believe they were able to resist but chose to exercise their freewill to eat. But that means God did not know for sure what they would do. Of course, God was prepared either way.

Since 1 Tim 2:4 says God wants all to be saved, I take it that the choice is ours. I don't think God is sure exactly who would choose him otherwise there wouldn't be so much joy in heaven over one sinner that repents (Lk 15:10). It gives us hope that everyone has a chance to be saved.

In His humanity, Jesus temporarily and voluntarily knew less than what the Father knew. Jesus even said that He did and said only what the Father told him to do and say. Jesus lived in complete reliance on the Father. Jesus was tempted in His humanity by Satan. Jesus prayed to the Father in His humanity. I never said that Jesus lacked any divine attribute. I said that he temporarily set aside certain divine prerogatives which is what Paul said in Philippians 2: 5-6. Jesus was still God and equal with God, but did not see His equality with the Father as something to exploit to his own advantage. Jesus doing and saying only what God told him to do and say was meant to show that his message was God's message. It was not meant to imply he knew less than God knew. Conversely, Jesus did say, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15) and the context there is about truth and the future (16:13). It implies Jesus knew everything God knew. I think that is more consistent with Jesus being still fully God when he was on earth.

There is a point beyond which men should not try to delve further into the Mystery of God and the Mystery of Godliness. The truth of the matter is that Jesus of Nazareth -- the God-Man -- was omniscient, and only laid aside His glory when He took human form. We are not told why there was one exception to Christ's omniscience, but THAT IS AN EXCEPTION. And if we are not told something, we should not try to investigate it further. We take it on faith that Christ was FULLY GOD at every moment that He was also fully Man (Heb 1:8,9). On the contrary, I think we are told and hence it is worth investigating. But to each his own.