8thdaypriest

This - to me - is very confusing. To say that 1 being (singular) is 3 persons. Are there Scripture passages which use the terms "being" and "person" differently? Is the definition of "being" different from that of "person"? Or does it end - as usual - with "we cannot understand these things", thus ending all discussion.

Thank you for continuing to dialog shiloh357. Is not the comment in red somewhat "personal"? How would you know how "theologically equipped" I am? How would you know what degrees I hold? And why would it matter what official degrees a person holds, if Christ is leading? Saul was VERY educated, yet he was ignorant (by his own admission). He held the majority view, within His culture, yet he was wrong and he was persecuting those who held a different view.

Let me try from another angle. Who was Jesus "Father". Matthew 1:18,20,23 Mary was His human mother and God was His divine Father. Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.’” John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” 2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, and the child born to her was called “the only begotten of the Father” and “the Son of the Father. It seems very simple. The Holy Spirit IS the divine Being whom Jesus called “Father”. God the Father appears sitting on a throne, while His spirit presence pervades the Universe. When Jesus refers to "My Father" - is He not speaking of The Holy Spirit? Jesus said, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. " (John 4:23-24 NKJ) We worship "Him" -- "the Father" who "is Spirit". If the Father were not Spirit, then He could not be with Christ and in Christ, while yet being invisible.

One Light, You believe very strongly in your interpretation of the Scriptures concerning the nature of God. I also believe very strongly. That is why our debate should be a good one, and provide much evidence and food for thought for those who come here. If you were not so strong in your beliefs then our debate would bring much less to the table. It is good that we are both strong and knowledgeable. I just hope that we can discuss respectfully. I will pray about that - for both of us. Over the years, I have learned new things in the course of forum debates. Things I had never "seen" before. That is always very very good. In formatting replies to posters I have found ways to strengthen my arguments. That is also good. You say that I do not read your posts. But I do. Do you read the verses that I post? And really think about them? I am almost 70. I am retired now. My husband and I live on a 10 acre homestead in East Texas, near a small town. I have been an avid student of the Word for some 40 years now. Jesus is very real to me. Someone asked if I am quoting from a website. Yes. Some of the time. I also use Bible Works 10. I am just getting used to it. I had version 8 for many years. I have found that Version 10 leaves out many verses that contain my search words. I think I will start notifying them about that. I always have several translations open to compare, but I mostly use the NKJV. I like the NET, but they have so many reference numbers in the text that it takes too much time to delete them all from my post.

One Light, I have seen this diagram many times. I just do not believe this way. I believe that God our Father IS the Holy Spirit. So I cannot put "Is NOT" between The Father and The Holy Spirit. So yes of course - The Holy Spirit IS God. I do not believe that "God" is ONE being who manifests in three ways or exists as three persons, or however you put it. I believe there are ONLY TWO DIVINE BEINGS. God - the Father AND His divine only begotten Son. The Son IS also "God" because He was begotten from His Father. Luke 20:42 "Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms:`The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, (Luk 20:42 NKJ) Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." (NKJ) Here God the Father speaks to His Son calling Him "God". Yet - The "God" who speaks is called "Your God" by the writer David. Meaning that the God who anoints is the God of the one being anointed. At the baptism, God the Father anointed Jesus with His Spirit in the form of a dove. Only kings and priests were anointed during the OT. They were anointed with oil, which represented the Holy Spirit. At the baptism, rather than oil, God the Father made His Spirit visible, in the form of a dove. The anointing was called the "seal" of office for kings and priests. It meant that God had chosen them. You remember that Samuel anointed both Saul and David. John 6:27 [Jesus speaking] "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

JWs do NOT worship Jesus Christ. I do!!! I worship Jesus because God the Father has commanded us to worship His only begotten Son. Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers - both begotten from God the Father. I do NOT share that belief. I believe that God the Father has only ONE "BEGOTTEN SON". Through that Son, God created all things - including Lucifer (the Light Bearer) who rebelled and became Satan (the accuser, the deceiver, the destroyer). John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him; and without Him nothing was made that was made.” Colossians 1:15-17 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.” I Corinthians 8:6 “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” John 1:10 “He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.” Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.” God the Father created all things THROUGH His begotten Son.

So you're saying that Jesus was NOT a "Son of Man". That would mean He was NOT "come in the flesh". And that teaching is called antichrist . Are you sure you don't want to change that part? 1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, (NKJ) 1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, (NKJ) Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, (NKJ) Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death (NKJ) Angles don't die. Humans do. In order to die, Jesus had to become a human being. I believe that the Son of God took the form AND the nature of mankind - the nature of man long after the Fall. He inherited that nature from Mary his human mother. The references you sited about the word "son" having "nothing to do with being the offspring of someone" - those references do not anywhere use the term "begotten" or "only begotten". Jesus is called God's "only begotten son" - not just "a son". John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (NKJ) John 1:18 [Christ speaking] No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJ) John 3:16 [Christ speaking] "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (NKJ) Matthew 3:17 [Father speaks] And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (NKJ) Matthew 17:5 [Father speaks] While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" (NKJ)

I believe Jesus DID claim to be a separate being from God His Father. “Not My will but Thine be done,” Jesus prayed (Luke 22:42). “I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me” (John 6:38). John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’” John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” Do these verses speak of two beings, or three - two separate wills, or three? Matthew 20:23 to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father" (NKJ) John 4:34 “Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me . . .’” John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” John 6:38-39 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. I could quote several more, but you get the idea. There were TWO SEPARATE WILLS in operation. Jesus' will AND the Father's will. For TWO wills to operate, there must be TWO separate persons (beings). Jesus said He came to do the will of His God and Father. John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” All these were written long AFTER Jesus returned to heaven. Paul is STILL calling the Father, "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ". Romans 15:6 “ ... that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Corinthians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,” 2 Corinthians 11:31 “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.” Ephesians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,” Ephesians 1:17 “ ... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,” Colossians 1:3 “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,” And here is the glorified Christ speaking - many years AFTER He ascended into Heaven. Revelation 3:12 “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.” So - If the glorified Christ looks upon His Father as His God - that is TWO DIVINE BEINGS - Father and Son.

Your post does not seem very loving Steven. It seems very threatening. And I'm not sure what your message is.

Need to go eat supper now. Will visit tomorrow.

And what about the messages to the 7 churches, in Revelation? Each message says, "Hear what the Spirit says". And if you look carefully, you realize that each message is Christ speaking. So a third divine being does not "say" anything. The Spirit speaking IS Jesus speaking.

You have not yet mentioned the glorious dove at His baptism. Luke 3:22 (John 1:32) “And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased” God the Father spoke from Heaven, “This is My beloved Son.” God the Father poured out His spirit upon His Son, publicly anointing Him. The Father thus set His seal upon His Son. The dove was a symbol of the Spirit, like the oil which was poured upon Aaron for the priesthood, and upon David who would become king of Israel. Only kings and priests were anointed. Jesus was anointed our future King, and anointed High Priest over all creation. The Spirit is the “seal” of God. Ephesians 1:13 says, “having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”. Just so, God the Father set “His seal” upon His own Son. John 6:27 “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

This verse is more accurately translated, "All Scripture given of God, is profitable." There were many so called "scriptures" floating around at that time, which were NOT "given of God". 1 Peter 1:10-11 “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” The "spirit" which inspired the OT prophets, was "the Spirit of Christ". It was Christ "who was in them".

I have NOT denied God Our Father and Jesus Christ His Son. I have said there is in fact a Father-Son relationship between them. Islam teaches that God never beget a Son.

The Holy Spirit OF God, is not necessarily the same as God the Holy Spirit. This verse is not a proof text concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit. The same might be said for the sin against the Holy Spirit. Consider the Holy Spirit teaching. Luke 12:12 “For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.” Mark 13:11 “But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.” [Compare a parallel passage.] Matthew 10:19-20 “But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.” The Spirit who speaks IS the Spirit of the Father, which is poured out to us through His Son. We experience the voice of Christ. He is our Teacher. He is the “life-giving spirit” within us. He explains the things of God for us. He takes the things of God and explains them to us. The channel is Christ. But we give thanks to the Father. Concerning blasphemy against the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31-32 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” Mark 3:29 “He who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.” Why no mention of blasphemy against The Father? Why? Because the Father IS the original, uncreated Holy Spirit. If the Father of Jesus Christ IS the Holy Spirit, then we can understand this passage to say that speaking a word against the human Jesus can be forgiven, but blasphemy against God His Father - will not. Blasphemy against Yahweh, the God of Israel would not be forgiven. Now that makes sense. The Spirit is the means by which we have fellowship with the Father and with His Son (1John 1:3, John 14:23). To reject the Holy Spirit is to turn a deaf ear to the only source of saving conviction and power. To reject the Holy Spirit is to reject both the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:23 “Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”