RCruise

So Shilo, You do not believe God kept His Word when He said He would preserve it pure throughout all ages? Or that The Holy Spirit will enlighten beyond our human reason, the One Truth in Unity with Him? Just asking for clarification for it seems most of your post is "bent" from human reasoning and not from the Scriptural Inerrant Truth of God in Christ Jesus. Many have posted that you put forth an excellent post. I do not see that as true, so I ask.

Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about why His Disciples did not "fast" but, revealed much Truth when He said: Matthew 9:16-17 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. It's all about the "vessel", us and whether we have sought Him the way He directs and not man. The reason we chose the name "Jesus Walk Ministries" was multifold. One, I felt enough ministries and churches had all sorts of meaningful or person names on them but few had Jesus' Name in them. Second, with what the Lord spoke to me about the importance of Intimacy in Him in our Relationship, the only way to get there is exactly as His Disciples did, to "Walk" with Him in His Word and speaking with Him by the Spirit. The "vessel" must be readied or made "new" to receive. Some, this happens quickly, some take time but, the "quickening" or expedient way there is to actually "walk with Jesus". And, by doing so, we are not deceived with satan's false copy-cat garbage that points to the signs and not to The Glory of Jesus Himself. If we believe Him, then we believe the "works" and His Word in what He said that these and greater works would we do. Perhaps the reason you have not received anything is because it is not a gift God has for you but, He will impart a gift or several as He sees fit for you. The Word tells us that for the Holy Ghost, it is God's genuine and Loving desire to give Him to us......if we so ask. Jesus relates how if an earthly father knows how to "give good gifts", God the Father being perfect and loving and Righteous knows and loves to give us His Gift. But we are also told how to ask in Jesus Name. In other words for His Glory and not our own. We are told that we ask "amiss" many times. And, we are told that if even one little bit of doubt (not asking in Faith) exists, we are double minded and let not that man who is so tossed like the waves think he will receive anything. Why? Because he (that man) is not really believing it exists nor that he can or really will receive it and is (whether acknowledged or not in our mind) is tempting or testing God. There are many today who "think" they have it, but do not. There are also many who do but follow Scripture and do not bring any Glory to themselves with the Gift but all Glory to Jesus revealing to the soul who needed Him by the person with the Gift. Remember what Jesus said to Nicodemus about being Born Again? Jesus said that those "Born of the Spirit" (Born Again) are like the "wind". You hear the wind and the wind always sounds like....."wind". You cannot tell where it came from or where it goes to. With that statement alone, we should be able to discern of all the professing preachers/teachers out there, who is and who is not Born of The Holy Spirit. Consider these things Brother Matthew. Seek Jesus only and walk with Him and we WILL Pray that He reveals Himself to you and manifests His Glory confirming the Word in your heart as He gives it to you and not I nor anyone else. And know that your Salvation is not the same as the Power of God (John 1 says Jesus gave "POWER" to those that Believe on Him, even on His Name to become the Sons of God). We do not preach this as a Salvation Necessity but as a Faith necessity that we fail not and do the work of the Lord. For Jesus told His own Disciples to "tarry at Jerusalem after He ascends, to receive and be emdued with Power from Above". Many are winging it without that power. Over 6000 preachers/evangelists burn out and leave the ministry each year and I fully am convinced it is because of what I have pointed out, they lack the Power of Christ working through The Holy Ghost.

I forgot to add one thing; This evangelist would have "catchers" position themselves then lay hands and pray. When he turned toward me, the "catchers" were still laying the other person down. His hands never got closer than a foot and half from me when it was "out time with The Lord" for me. Nobody there to catch me. They do that so no one hurts themself. I hit the floor hard too. This was all told to me later by my wife and several witnesses. So, he never touched me nor did anyone break my fall except Jesus.

Hi Matthew, First, yes...totally healed and my thin atrophied (shrunken muscle tissue) was right then and there full and good tone. Even my physical therapist (next day) was in dis-belief and shock and said it was impossible for the muscle to just be normal suddenly. Really had no pain to speak of for I had learned "mind control" using therapies in the pain center before then but, yes, all gone for I didn't have to use those techniques any longer. Now, after I fell away again, the same disc ruptured once again and required a second surgery but, the Lord healed my muscle and nerve tissue. However, God placed a Christian Surgeon in my path this time and he spent four hours cleaning out scar tissue that had choked all my lower nerves totally out. He then insulated each nerve with my own fat cells to prevent that ever again. He said it was impossible given the scar tissue in my spine and the dead nerve tissue it was choking for so long for me to have had feeling to ever have return. I told him my testimony and being a Christian, he said only God could have maintained and restored my feeling. I never lost my healing but, an additional injury to the same disc brought on this new surgery. My leg never lost feeling nor atrophied ever again since the healing. Now, I don't really agree to call it "slain in the spirit" for I do not see that in the Word either. But, I have asked the Lord what He calls it with evidence in His Word and He showed me it was "being taken up or aside in the Spirit". He did it with Daniel, Philip, Steven at his stoning, John in Revelation. This is the same way He called me years back. It is a totally aware area but you are so held in absolute trust and peace it is amazing. I have quit using non-Biblical definitions and use only Biblical references as much as possible. As far as "video", I don't have one. I don't believe The Lord does that. The "one" on TV who "showboats" this kind of stuff has been proven false by followups with several he has supposedly healed. Women cured of cancer who some have since died of cancer or cancer is still there, etc.... God does not do "showboat" and certainly not to a man's glory. And he is getting rich (making merchandise of the flock) with all of his videos/recordings. What kind of Faith is it when we have to see it first? Isn't it enough to know His Word is Absolute and Inerrant and to know that if we can Trust all He says, that means ALL? I have seen miracles and been the recipient there of. Mine was recorded on cassette tape but, it is a bad recording and you can barely hear my voice and testimony. I just really don't believe God is into the media style of Glory but all Glory to Jesus Christ alone.

Admittedly, as you see your sister's life through your eyes, it does not seem that God is evident but, have you ever asked her specifically why she continues to have Faith? Jesus never promised anything but His Joy and Peace such as the world cannot see nor understand and it is an everlasting Peace and Joy given in such abundance that it overfills us. Yet, He also said that in the world we would suffer tribulations. He added "but be of Good Cheer for I have Overcome the World". Now if we look at His Life and Suffering even upto the Cross, it is not evident that He had such Joy and Peace so, it must be how we look at the life or situation versus what He said to look for. Until we come into a Right and Inimate Relationship with Jesus, many do not know how to look for a Right relationship in the world. I am not condemning you or judging you but, according to your own story, you have not sacrificed your flesh desires to be in line with His desires and will for you. And that will not come until you touch and get hold of Jesus in His Word and by His Holy Spirit which He will gladly manifest to you as He loves you more than you know. But, to recognize His Love versus our concept of Love, we must learn and submit to Him in His Word turning away from all we know to be unrighteous against Him. We can read all sorts of things into Him but, He changes not for us but, changes us for Himself. I would say go to Him and repent (turn away from) any sexual relationships and stop looking for Love until you find His. I had to before I realized just how deep He can reach within and fulfill all I desired in life. God does not work on "feelings" but in Faith and His Immense Grace through Jesus Christ. God does not send "hurtful people" into our lives, we invite them to come into our life. I attempted suicide as well when I lost everything including my love (wrong relationship), my business, my credit, all I owned and had saved for. But when I thought God had left me as well, I couldn't go on. He intervened and stopped me and then began a process of cleaning out all my own theologies (I was also a minister by then) and began to teach me what Real Faith, Real Love, The Real Jesus was all about. He also showed me that so long as we have bitterness and anger and hatred and distress loaded up in our hearts, we cut ourselves off from Him, not He from us. We cannot see nor hear Him. I had to learn to forgive everyone in my heart to open up my whole heart to Him. Jesus said in Matthew 9:17 that a person does not put "new wine into old bottles lest the old bottle breaks and the new wine is spilled". We are old bottles until we fully surrender to Him and are made "new" in Christ. Then the "new wine" or New Life of Christ can pour in. You have sat on a fence of non-committed action to submission to Jesus Christ long enough. Don't believe the false Jesus taught today of riches and glory and self help that are not to be found in His Word. He warned against such and said they would come. Trust Him fully now and today and pray and read His Word. He said He cares for you and Loves you very much and for us to cast ALL our cares upon Him. And with every Promise He made, He simply asked that we obey Him. Where we fail, He is our advocate for we have no other. He saves to reconcile us to Himself and to keep us from Hell and Just Punishment, not to build us a Utopia here on this Earth now.

Hi lostsoulmate, I don't believe I saw it posted but in this same Forum where Eric moved your thread, there is a support thread dedicated to divorce support. Divorce Support Thread (click on link) or here is the address; http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=52831 Many of us have been through much the same stuff. I have a friend and Brother in Christ whose wife of 22 years caught him in a drugged and drunken stupor having sex with her best friend. He had never cheated on her ever before that day. It hurt her deeply. She was ready to divorce him. He ran to every Christian he knew, attended all different Churches but couldn't shake the alcohol or drug addiction and could not appease his loving wife's heart. but a mutual friend of both of us took him to his Church and a singing group came in to perform. Bill knew the lead singer from the Automotive industry, found out he was a pastor of the Baptist Church across the field from the one he was in, could see the anointing and glow of Jesus all over him. He came to Jesus Christ two nights later in his own house. Set free immediately from the alcohol and drugs. Pastor Darren talked with Bill's wife and dealt sin as God sees it out like a deck of cards. Today God has healed her heart immensely and their marriage is healed and better than it ever was. It is not always like that but, I have learned to expect Great and Supernatural things from Jesus! For myself, He replaced an atheist wife who left while I was studying Jesus in The Word and hadn't even accepted Him yet with one He picked for me nearly four years later. The other is still moving men in and out of her life thinking she will find the man she is looking for that way. There is a bright and glorious rising ahead, just put all and everything into Jesus' hands including your heart and behold the Glory and Power of the Lord as He moves.

Josh McDowell had something on this several years ago. Basically, our children see our hypocrasy as Christians and want Real or nothing. We all have some hypocrasy (I know I have no matter how hard I try not to). But he raised a tested scenario that seems to really work! Yes! Most definitely lay them up in prayer continually! But, also approach them and "Apologize" asking them for forgiveness for your failure to make Jesus continually real in their lives and in yours. Speak Blessings over them. The Supernatural Power of Christ in God takes over! Honesty without excuses is the most honest and honorable of all. How many times do we as humans go to apologize to someone yet, we lump in an excuse as to "why" as if that helps explain it. When we confess to God in Christ, we don't excuse anything or try to explain why we sinned against Him. We just know we have so we confess, ask forgiveness and, turn from that line of thought and actions ever again. Hope that helps!

The New Covenant is between God and Jesus (both son of man and Son of God). It is a Covenant that can no longer be broken as the Old Covenant could be which was between God and Abraham's seed through Isaac. What we "acquire" as you term it is Jesus and He acquires or "secures" us by His Holy Promise in His Sacrifice through our willing Faith. Man fell from that "Perfect Image of God" with Adam and had NO way back to that Image. The Law could not do it but showed the difference between our fallen state/image and God's Righteous Image. By being (key word "being") conformed to Jesus' Image (an ongoing process and quickening) we are returned to the "Perfected Image where we belong" but not in the flesh but in The Spirit which conquers the Flesh by Christ's Abiding Power alone in our Abiding Faith in Him to do so being Born Again and Cleansed by His Word. And no one is "saved by grace" but by "Grace through Faith" both given freely and authored by Christ Jesus. We "retain" only what we willfully retain in the "old/fallen nature" yet, God will move and chastise to remove that which prevents us from being conformed. That is why many at some point leave altogether or run after other doctrines searing their ears and hearts from the Truth. Sadly. Hope that clarifies my position.

Not going there Eric. Wasn't going there anyway. Just trying to get clarification from Fiosh from "her" earlier post to me on "what church" she considered under "authority".....that was all. As I posted to Phil 2:12, I don't debate Church theologies and which one is right (anymore).

oooopppsss!! Have I been saying "he" and Fiosh is actually a "she"? There should be a "gender indicator" under the name in the posts! course, "he" is better than "it", right? just kidding! lol! Ok, "she" it is from now on!

Matthew, Not all manifestations are evil or lead to heresies. I never believed in "slain in the spirit" either and I was schooled in the Pentecostal Church of God where The Lord led me when He called me to preach. But, I was injured once during my backslidden days (17 years I walked away because of backbiting, gossip, etc... out of anger). The doctors cleaned out my disc between L4/L5 lower back but, it left me crippled and in a wheel chair with neurological damage. I had no feeling from my hip to my toes in my left leg. Nerve tests showed permanent damage and the diagnosis said nerves never repair after collapse. I was devastated since I had always been a strong working man and provided for my family. I had worked since I was six years old. I was so loaded down with despair, anger, bitterness and depression. I did manage to use bio-feedback to control by mind my right leg (atrophied from long periods laid up) enough to get on a cane but each step was slow and cautious because of the dead left leg. A nurse we had met at one of the local hospitals was a Christians and told my wife about a Revival by a Healing Evangelist coming to their Church (Assembly of God). I refused to have anything to do with anymore hypocrites! But something came over me and a strong urging within said; "it can't hurt you to go.." Though I had walked away from Church and my calling, I still had a respect and belief in God just not in practice. So, I went. The man preached a sermon on "Touching Jesus" and it was the sermon by the Holy Spirit that drew me to go forward not for healing but to let God know I was wrong and sorry. But, I could not kneel at their alter for I could not get back up. I could barely get up from a sitting position taking a long time to do so and then slowly get moving. So I stood praying for His Forgiveness. Out of the corner of my eyes I could see this evangelist coming down the line laying his oil anointed hands on people and they would fall back to the floor. I thought to myself; "I don't believe in this stuff and if he get's close to me, I am leaving and going back to my pew!" But, I suddenly became fixated on Jesus and some of the words I had heard that evening. I had closed my eyes in prayer and there he was! Coming at me with those oily hands and I was frozen and couldn't move. Suddenly, I was like removed from that place. I was in a supremely held space where the Love of Christ flooded my whole being and I could literally feel the warmth and Love flood my whole body. I realized without doubt Jesus was right there! I began to apologize and .... then He just hushed me as He did His work throughout. The depressing, emotional heavy load I had been under lifted off like tons of bricks and I had never felt such peace. It seemed like it went on forever in that place all alone with Him. When He was done, I realized I was laying on the floor up in front of the Church! Embarrased, I immediately got to my feet and went for my pew kind of looking down not wanting to confront anyone's eyes over that incident! But before I could reach the pew (almost to the row halfway down that Church), that evangelist called out over his microphone; "Young man!" I cringed and look back embarrased and he was smiling waving my caned over his head. It was then that I realized I had walked normally on both feet and legs to my row! I stomped on that left leg and foot and realized I not only had total feeling in it, but that the atrophied muscles were now full size in both legs! It wasn't long before I left that Church again because of the same things plus I had picked up smoking and couldn't get rid of it and that brought a lot of condemnation and judgement from others and well as myself. But, Jesus persued me and finally got hold of me in January 1997 after my 17 year marriage fell apart in 1993, a second marriage fell apart (1 1/2 years) because she was atheist and I had begun reading my Bible in quiet while she and her kids watched TV. That came because a deep hunger to really search and find Jesus for Real came up in me six months earlier. She gave me an ultimatum to throw that Bible away and forget anything about religion or she would pack up her kids and leave. She did so just before Christmas of 1996. Less than a month a later of searching the Scriptures but, no presence or call coming, I decided to hang it up, do as she had asked for surely God did not want me to allow another marriage to fail. It was right then and there that His same presence and power hit me and showed me He had been directing me to that place in my life and, that I needed to decide right then and there. And here I am today serving Him and still walking strong. We should not discount everything we do not understand in the flesh or by our own understanding of His Word as demonic. When we are truly Born Again by His Holy Spirit, we will see the phony copy-cat ways of satan versus the Real Manifestations of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost. To stamp them all even lightly as of satan, IS Blaspheme as Jesus proclaimed the Pharisees so did when they accused Him of casting out demons by beezelbub or satan. That is the only time Jesus brought up the "Blasepheme of the Holy Ghost", the "unforgivable sin" was at that moment and I don't care what theologeans have put forth since saying other manner of things are that "blaspheme", Jesus only pointed to calling the Supernatural Works of God through the Holy Spirit to be of satan to be that sin. We should all be careful of that and pray over it before opening our mouths on the subject thinking we know something but are totally ignorant. For the most part, if any manifestation brings the glory to Jesus alone, it is definitely of Him.

Mikado; I was in that place. I lost everything after my fiancee' bailed out on me and I was stuck with a failing business that I had invested everything into plus my good credit. I went through torment and heartbreak and this a year and a half after I returned to Christ. Everytime I opened the Word, I felt it was beating me alive. I prayed and prayed and.....nothing. I finally came to the conclusion that I had gone the wrong way (which I had made bad decisions not according to my calling) and I was a "cut off branch from the vine", that Jesus had "spewed me from His mouth". After loosing all my life's work and my name (credit wise), and a woman I was sure God had put in my life, I felt like life was not worth living if God had left as well. You see, I had gotten caught in many of the falsehoods of preaching that are out there today....and they were not working for me though I "sowed the seeds" of Faith and all that they said to do. Without the Lord, I did not want to go on. I hadn't preached in almost 6 months and pretty much ended my internet ministry as well. I came to full resolve one night that life was not worth living if God had left me as well. I loaded up my 16 ga. shotgun with a solid slug shell, cocked it into the chamber, leaned forward and rested my chin over the barrel and, reached down with my right thumb to pull the trigger. As my thumb reached the trigger, I heard a loud yell in my office (I had moved to my office building couldn't afford a home or rent any longer). I had a security gate at the street, locked, my doors locked, no one could possibly be there. I looked up and around startled and as I panned the room, my eyes fell on a framed enlargement of Eph 2:8-9; "For by Grace are ye Saved THROUGH FAITH...." Then He spoke to me and reminded that the last study I preached was on Faith. I hit the floor weeping and blessing Jesus and repenting. There is far more to this but, never go on feelings or how gloomy our life looks at this moment. The Lord takes us through, not over or around what He allows in our lives. Some of it is for cleansing, some (and I venture to say most) are to build the "Faith Muscle" in our hearts. Faith without any works (not flesh works but excersized actions) is dead we are told by James. In October of 2006, Jesus gave me a Revelation of His Intimacy and His desire for us to be closely and Intimately bonded in one with Him. Since that fateful day in mid 1999, I have Faithfully spent time every day in prayer and in His Word, getting "Intimate" with Jesus. In January of 2000, He spoke to me and told me to respond to a woman I had never met or seen (I was sending some prophecy notes and scriptures proving the "Pre-Wrath" position to her upon her request)....The Lord told me to tell her I Love her! I was beside myself! Never met her, seen her nor ever had any sort of romantic ideas or anything! But, He layed to rest every argument I had with His Word and then, reminded me that I had chosen on physical sight and that I had refused to date or see anyone except He point her out and that she has a heart for Him more than she would for me. So, I sent the email. The rest is history as we enter our seventh blissful year of marriage. Never an argument, never expected anything of me except to Love and Serve Jesus Christ. Does God always bring in someone new? No. I have a close friend who came to Jesus in 2003, was freed from alcohol and drugs in that split second of accepting Jesus. He fought to find an answer to save his 22 year marriage and found Jesus. Today, their marriage is healed and better than it ever was. Plus The Lord has used him to bring over 2000 souls to Jesus just in everyday one on one testifying. You never know what Christ has for you but I guarantee that if you hang in, draw tight and close, it will be better than you could ever have hoped or dreamed for.

I agree that laying on of hands is typically the way people receive the baptism in Spirit. Even the Apostle Paul received the baptism in the Spirit through Ananias. It's in and through the community of faith that believes in the BHS that most people experience the BHS. It's unusual, though it has happened and does happen, that people receive the BHS by themselves or outside of a community of faith that believes in the BHS. That's why it's helpful for those who want the receive the BHS to attend a fellowship of Christians who believe in the BHS (small group or large congregation). And it's especially difficult to receive the BHS if one regularly attends a fellowship that preaches/teaches a steady diet of anti-BHS sermons and lessons. Faith to receive from God comes from hearing and believing truth; whereas fear is the result of hearing and believing lies and erroneous teaching. That's why many people from traditional anti-BHS churches are fearful whenever they are exposed to the gifts of the Spirit in operation; they've been taught and believe erroneous doctrine producing fear. I agree that a primary reason for miracles is the verification of the Word of God as being the Word of God; I disagree with the teaching that miracles and other manifestations of the Spirit are not needed today. Christians accept the Bible as the Word of God; but Muslims do not; Buddhists do not; Hindus do not; atheists do not; most non-Christians do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Signs and Wonders verify that the Bible is the Word of God! Signs and wonders thus verify that our claims about Jesus being the Son of God are true. But more than any reasoning on my part, the Word teaches that signs and wonders are for today. Another verse you're likely familiar with is Mark 16:15-19 15

Hi juspasnthru, Your situation sounds very familiar to myself and my wife's. There is a hope and joy to come. Know that Jesus loves you so very much right now that you cannot even imagine the depth of His Love. Turn to Him fully, though your heart is broken and in turmoil, He will manifest Himself and His immense love! He relates sorrow the the great pains of a woman giving birth but, once the birth is accomplished, that pain is no longer remembered but is replaced with great joy and happiness. I testify to this personally. Both my wife and myself before we knew each other, had been in "wrong" relationships. They fell apart and brought a devastating effect on our hearts. But when each of us began to really trust in Christ and follow His lead depending solely on Him (He brought caring people in as well that encouraged us with their compassion and testimonies), we found that our joy and peace was fulfilled as He promises in Him alone. Then, as a crown on His Glory and reconstruction within us, He brought her and I together. But, we both know that until He had "broken" us and brought us to the place where He held first position above anyone including each other, our marriage of seven blissful, no arguments years, would not have been. We now Minister to those who are hurting and going through what we have been through ourselves. You see, my wife and I now know that The Lord is touching hearts today to clear the dross of the world and wrong ideas and teachings about Him so that a soul has a Right and Firm understanding of His Intimate Relationship He seeks from all of us. So many places in His Word, God relates His Relationship with us to Marriage. And if we possess a wrong idea or aspect of "relationship", He wants that gone, cleansed that we have a better understanding from His Heart of a Relationship. Many marriages which on the surface are right according to the Law, are not truly built on His premise and we see the devastating outcome in high divorce rates today within the Church body. If we can help (I come here almost daily), you can email us by clicking on my ID name and in the right column of my profile, you can PM or Email us. My wife leads this ministry for women and would be more than joyed and honored to include you. She interacts personally with every woman the Lord brings before her. Blessings in Christ Jesus, Brother Ron Cruise Pastor; Harvest Time Church Jesus Walk Ministries

I have searched on this before and there is no evidence they were ever baptised with water. At least not in Biblical Record. However they did have an affinity to baptise with water; Peter when the Holy Ghost Baptism fell on Cornelius and his household said they should not forbid water either (water baptism was a Jewish purification rite). Philip and the Eunich, Philip when he went down to that city in Samaria baptised them in water when they believed but Peter and John had to come to lay hands on them for the people to be Baptised in the Holy Ghost. Now, I have perused most of the posts and I see where a few point to Jesus having done the "water baptism" of His own disciples but; John 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) I would suppose that by this Scripture which shows Jesus did not baptise (water), it also says His Disciples Baptised and the "who they baptised" is in verse 1; Jesus' disciples. So they baptised each other.

No, not saying that! on my way but .... not quite there. Well you said "sinless" so I did question that aspect. Actually, Jesus didn't appoint anyone other than the twelve and one them fell into perdition. He had many disciples, sent out about seventy at one point early in His Ministry but, no one actually knows the count total at that point in Luke 10. But I am curious that if you see a specific Authority as "The Church", then which one or denomination?

WHOA!!!! 1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"? 2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life?? 3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him. We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ. Phil and RC, please before you get out of the book of Acts there are division, this HOLY SPIRIT only is what causes division. Nobody even the Apostles were so pure they didn't have discord between them. I posted my response to Phil and his scenario but, I am not sure what you are driving out here?? Phil's scenario says two missionary both with the Word of God and Holy Spirit. And I will say this time and again; no one is really guided by the Holy Ghost except they have been Baptised in the Holy Ghost. And that does not come except a soul is sold out and in submission to Jesus Christ recognizing Him Alone as God Manifested, God Sacrificed and, God Risen Up from Death conquering Death and The Grave taking our punishment (His Just Punishment for sin) upon Himself for us who Believe. I agree there were minor issues but, that being human nature, The Holy Ghost still "ironed" those out and the Church never missed a beat in His Authority and Leadership (Jesus). Now, do I believe The Holy Spirit of God alone can lead one into one accord with Jesus and be sufficient? You bet I do! And therein lies the mystery that so many are blinded to even within the Church of Jesus Christ.

Their teaching should be the same. Doctrines however come from men and I would have no doubts that the doctrines would become diverse just based upon normal humanity and the fact that the entire tribe would probably not come to the Gospel or respond to it with their humanity. Consider when Philip (Acts 8) went down to a city in Samaria; He did healings, casting out demons, and the people received his message with "one accord" and with "great joy in that city". But, Simon the sorceror, though he did believe, was after the "power" as it became evident when Peter and John came down to Baptise them in the Holy Ghost for though they believed and were baptised (water) by Philip and, though he possessed many gifts through Faith, Peter and John possessed the gift of laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost. So, we have two evidences where it would probably not occur that the outcome would be exactly the same; 1. New Believers and their nature coupled with the probabilities that not all will believe or believe whole heartedly. 2. The "severally" varying gifts dispersed throughout the Word indicate the necessity of several members of The Body to complete The Gospel in Christ.

I prayed to the Holy Spirit before posting. I even prayed for guidance whether or not to reply. There are several intrinsic errors in your hypothetical situation. 1. Despite the fact that neither missionary had any Biblical training, they still had different life experiences to draw upon. 2. Unless they were totally surrendered to Jesus, and leading sinless lives, they will hear the Holy Spirit thru their fallen human "ears". 3. and the biggest error.............if they were truly submitted to Christ and able to discern the Spirits voice, they wouldn't be flying solo. They would be fully engaged in, and obedient to, a Church. God bless, Fiosh WHOA!!!! 1. Are you saying the Holy Spirit does not conform us to One Accord in Christ despite our "life experiences"? 2. The Holy Spirit is only given to those "totally surrendered" but...who leads a totally "sinless lives"? Are you now perfected and without any sin anywhere in your life?? 3. The Scriptures DO NOT place "obedience" to the "church" but to Jesus Alone and Only Him. We are to give benevolence and heed to those Jesus has placed in Authority over us verifying their teachings by the Word of God and "testing the spirits" by that same Word....but, if this latter days has proven anything, few there are that are taking that lead in Christ Jesus. A Spirit filled and Spirit led leader would point to Jesus Only for our Authority for he is nothing of himself and has nothing in him Worthy to teach save the Lord Jesus and His Word. The "Church" was never meant to be in Authority and that is the root of what we see in apostacy today. It (The Church and her leaders) have taken Authority that does not belong to them but to Jesus Christ.

To none: I would say you have gotten more than you bargained for. Many have put forth very good and Biblically based words and some are just going into "judgementalisms and legalisms" yet violate the Scriptures themselves in so doing. I will say this; These ARE the last days and Tribulation has already began though many reject that. The Lord will take with Him only those who are deeply Intimate in Him to know Him and have prepared themselves well in Him, Jesus Christ. Many will fail and fall away for they are not nor will they prepare in the Holy Spirit to make it through the "darkness" we are entering in the Great Tribulation....God's great "shaking and burning" of chaff and works that only the Faithful remain before Jesus comes to take His own and ready the Wrath on mankind. Many here forget the teaching; 1 Corinthians 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; This is not saying one should act like they do not have a spouse for Paul spent all of chapter 7 expounding on Marriage but, due to the "shortness of time in Christ" even back then, the attendance to the Gospel and things in Christ have a greater importance than the duties and benevolence of a married life. Jesus also said this and Peter even said they had left their own homes and wives to attend unto Christ. But, I also say trust even deeper in the Scriptures and Lord Jesus only for yourself and adhere to those things still loving and giving unto your husband that which you have between you and increase it as well as Christ increases you and in you. Trust in the Supernatural power in His Word and you will see it bear fruit within your marriage. While you will not see yourself change to what you perceive your husband is desiring of you, as will he not see himself change into what you desire him to be.....Jesus will change the views within you of him and within him of you as he changes each of you from within and you will both have what you desire in each other. Blessings in Christ Jesus, Pastor Ron Cruise Harvest Time Church Jesus Walk Ministries

first, your previous post where you believe my posts were similiar to your own.....dealt with clarification and I DO admonish spouses to work their differences out in Christ and Biblically but, my post was nothing similiar to yours. None posted after these posts that the children's Grandparents and her husband want her to go along with the lies of the holidays (and yes, Emily Anne...being quiet about it when thay ask mom and deferring to her husband to continue the falsehood is just as deceiving and lying as doing it herself). You continue to keep beating the Scriptures as YOU understand them placing greater importance on her submission to her husband than to Jesus Christ though her husband is not a Believer. That is wrong on YOUR part. As she has posted, what she has put forth was with his permission to see if he is right that "everyone is doing it.." (lying about santa, bunnies, etc..) or if she is right plus what she feels is "garbage influence" from television. And he, according to None, has agreed to let her ask these questions in here. She has readily admitted she loves him and supports him very much and that their marriage really has no problems, just differences of opinions. Oh yeah, she also quoted he would like her to be more quiet type personality and probably just agree and go along with what he says is Spiritually right. First, God is the only one who changes anyone and you nor I nor anyone of flesh should ever expect to change another person, not even our spouse. Just as I told her in my first post that she married him and chose him, so did he choose and marry her for who she is. There has been many different views and to those of you who have posted admonishment to none for dragging these questions in here, so are you guilty by participating to begin with and now with judgement! But Vickilynn, seeing that you are soooo wrapped up in Paulinian theology even to omit the chaste and first commandment of Christ to Love the Lord our God with All our Heart, Strength and Soul and, put the flesh submission over that First Commandment of Love; Why do you also violate Paul's teachings to "Not Usurp The Authority of a Man" and think you can "Teach a Man" who is called and ordained of God in Christ Jesus? By you saying my teaching on this is wrong and by keep putting YOUR teaching out there to none, you DO violate that Scripture that your hypocritical alliance says is more important than anything else! For I was not called by man nor received salvation of man but in my bed, wide awake by the Holy Ghost with voice orders and visions. A "Damascus Road" conversion in my own home. Now, by the Holy Spirit I asked you in an earlier post what denomination you adhered to? Do they have a website with statement of Beliefs and Faith? For I perceive by your continual hypocritic meanderings to the Importance and All Truism of God's Word (which it is) yet violating it yourself....plus your insistance on leaving the Vowels "o" out of Lord and God, you are in a cult sect of Yahweh - ism or YHVW ism or another spinoff of these last days that lead no closer to Jesus than any other but do lead "silly women" astray.

Vickilynn: You told me I was wrong but, never answered me on my main point! I said you are saying she should obey her husband and LIE to her children. That is what you are saying! Jesus (I posted the Scriptures) said if we are His, we are to LOVE Him more than anyone including spouse. That means ALL His adherances, not our spouses. In all of None's posts, I have not seen an out and out rebellion to God's Word to submit but for where worldly influences and lies permeate her responsibilities to Jesus to be honest and, to rear her children up in the Lord's Ways. What you propose is for her to forego that obligation and her own obligation before Jesus to not Lie and to be honest! That is no "witchcraft" and you have a very "cult twisted" view on these matters. May I ask what Church/ Denomination you belong to? Do they have a website? Statement of Faith and Beliefs?

Vickilynn: Those are some very strong accusations and judgements you are todding out there based upon your understanding of Scripture. I have followed your's and none's posts back and forth and basically you are saying to her that it is God's Will for her to LIE to her children so that she be in obedience to her husband and that God places a higher moral objective for her to "OBEY" her husband to LIE about fables being real instead of telling her children why the Real Glory of the Holiday exists and that being for Jesus. Please, if I am wrong tell me where for that is the summize of what I see in your posts. Do you know that God HATES Liars and that a LIAR will NOT Inherit the Kingdom of God? We are taught as well that we are to dispell the "Fables and Wivestales" (myths and legends and have NO PART in them? Some take this too far so as to destroy the celebrations all together believing they still hold pagan beliefs even when we Glorify Jesus by observation. They are only pagan when a Believer allows the original or other added in Glory to fabled santa's , bunnies (fertility rights) , etc....). But, the Glory of Christ's Birth and His Death and Resurrection (whether or not they actually occurred on these dates or not) is Glorifying Jesus and, The Father in Jesus Name. We are also told that many in the last days will know the Truth but deviated and hold it in unrighteousness changing the Glory and the Worship of the Incorrumpible God into a LIE worshipping the created things (i.e. man - santa; bunnies and eggs - creatures and earthly creation - fertility rites) more than the God who Created these - Jesus. I do not see None not obeying her husband except where such is in compromise and contradiction of Jesus Christ which is Her Covering since her husband is only being her earthly covering and not her Spiritual Covering in Christ. What you are doing is invoking a literal law view in Contradiction to maintaining Truth inspite of the trouble and persecution that it brings. Jesus Himself said: Matthew 10:34-38 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Including Spouses: Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. I pray you re-consider what you are accussing a sister in Christ of and are demanding she sin against Christ and His Kingdom just to fit in your limited view. May the Lord Jesus Bless you and Keep You in All Truth, Pastor Ron Cruise.

Actually, "by faith" but, I never said he didn't have faith. It takes a lot of Faith to offer up your only son knowing God will keep the Promise He made on that son. But, the Abimelech incident was early before Isaac. And, it is obvious Abraham "feared" (he said he did to Sarah and the king) not knowing as yet or understanding the Promise God made to him when God called him out of his father's house and land. I did stiplify "Supernatureal Faith" which did grow later and exceedingly so. From where do you get the term supernatural trust/ faith? Trust in and of itself is a gift from G-d and Abraham exercised this as soon as he received the call, simply because it had been given to him, once he'd received trust it grew, it grew because it was the real thing. He may have exercised it in varying degrees but the writer of Hebrews states in verse 8 that he moved in trust. As to the amount of trust being exercised it's more to do with quality, small amounts of trust can move mountains if it's the real thing, and not the psyching up of the mental attributes with a positive mental attitude. Trust is given that we may exercise it and the exercise of trust is well pleasing to the Lord because it is His trust that we exercise, just as He is life and gives us eternal life so is He the means of our trusting. The trials of our trust as the trial of Abrahams trust; is not to prove it's quality to the Lord, but that we should see it's worth and become more reliant upon it rather than our ingenuity e.g. Telling lies or half truths to protect ourselves. The Lord by His providential care brought Abraham to this trial that through it he may learn to trust in the Lord and not lean unto his own understanding. I recognise the trial having just been through it, again, and like Abraham have been found wanting. Grace & truth, Agape, H. ???........tryster, I think we are on the same page here so I am not sure what your original posting of Hebrews verse was about? The original question in post one was why did Abraham lie. If Abraham had "Perfect Trust" as you say, he would not have because I posted in the original post what God had promised him when he separated and travelled out. Yet Abraham out of fear for his life, had Sarah agree to lie and he lied by hiding the fact she was his wife. And then later down the road of Faith increase in God's Word (as we all receive Faith the same), Abraham offerred up Isaac knowing God would keep His promise in Isaac even if God had to raise Isaac from the Alter after being sacrificed.

None: Do you ever receive any literature from Josh McDowel and/or The Barna Research? Josh wrote something in an article (may have been an excerpt from one of his books) where all the teens and young adults he has talked to and polled who were raised in a Christian family and Church, don't believe or fully believe all the tenents of Foundational Christ teachings because hypocrasy runs rampant in their home. This runs deep through the gambits but basically, their parents do not walk the talk of their own lips let alone Jesus' lips. The Barna Research has basically come up with the same results in their research and much more. What we foundation our children with, will set their hearts for most of their life except Jesus intervenes somewhere. If we feed them falsehoods and lies, they will follow suit but, the studies show they increase and become more extreme in our children. This is like anything evil. All one has to do is read Genesis account of Cain. He murdered his brother but his grandson murdered and expected more favor (he saw God's protection on Cain as favorable) 70 times 7 fold. The Barna Research also showed that in a statistical analysis, the children (males or females) tend to follow the "Spiritual Lead" of their fathers. A mother may be a beautiful Christian, going to Church all the time and taking the children with her to be sure they get a proper Christian raising but, if the father does not adhere or go or live in Christ, only a small percent will stay Christian as they get older. In fact, the percent is barely above children raised in a home where neither parents are believers. But, the percentage of young adults polled who were Christian and the Father lived and taught Christ in the home regardless of how the mother believed, rose significantly to high percentage. In comparing the homes where both parents Believed with the "Father only Believer" and the Mother was non-believing, no noticable differences. This study is astounding but shows the importance that if a home has both parents, the dad really should be leading in All Truth and if he is not, he is endangering his children to fall short later as they enter adulthood. What you are doing is admirable to stand up for the Truth and not lie. If your husband and the Grandparents say they are Believers and call you selfish for destroying a lie at the onset, they lie to Christ and themselves and do more harm to the children. Truth is not selfish, their lies are at best patronizing for themselves only and show total selfishness and a lack of true generation in Christ. Peter and John stood before the High Council and were ordered to not preach Jesus' Name. They said whether it be better to follow God or man, they [the Council] decide but the two of them were following God and His voice. And Jesus preached to submit to the rulers over us. Yes but, not if it compromises God's Word and Will.