RCruise

Hal has changed his tune so to speak in a few areas compared to when he first came on the scene.

Hi Angels4u: If you go back and read through all of my posts, you will see that the Scripture stands firmly on a "pre-wrath" not "pre-trip" position.

Dr. Luke: I know for a fact that we are already in the beginnings (already entered into) the Great Tribulation period. However, the locusts you speak of do not come until after the seventh seal is opened and we who believe are out of here before that because that is a Wrath event. Take note that it is an act from out of Heaven also which opens the pit where they now reside until that day.

WM: You are taking specific promises to gather the scattered tribes back to Israel and trying to mix them with the grand event of the First Resurrection.

WM: Man did not "invent" the event we call the "rapture".

Hi Gary! Yes, there is a period of 1290 days beyond the cutting off of the sacrifice and when the ac sets up the abomination that maketh desolate - the image of the beast.

Ok WM, you can stick around if you so desire and somehow see it in the Word (even though it is very simple and very clear that there is a ressurection of the just from the grave first and those of us still alive caught up right after them. Man, you try to make being in Heaven with the Lord sound terrible. So, I guess you have no desire in your heart to stand before He who died for you singing Hosanna to His Name? I guess you want to remain around here and see first hand all the torments of the Wrath of God upon man? Imagine seeing a family member (possibly someone extremely close like your son or daughter or wife) being stung by those horrible locust creatures or forming extreme and painful sores upon their body because they took the mark. No, I don't care to see the torment of mankind in His Wrath for not believing Jesus Christ. All that could be done by Christians/the Church in evangelism and ministry to bring souls in will be done/finished before He pours out His Wrath. There is no longer a need to "stick around" and God is not willing that we "suffer His Wrath" and that includes the torment of seeing that Wrath upon others. It will be "Glory time" for the Believer in Christ Jesus. A place away and oblivious to what He is doing upon the earth. Yes, I would rather be there awaiting to return with Him than here with all that will be happening. Yours in Jesus Christ, Ron

Hey Waldens, Are you thinking God will not "rapture" His Church before He pours out His Wrath? Just the same as the Bible is very clear on when (insofar as events and signs) the rapture will happen, it is also very clear that it will occur. Not only that but the very verses that point to when (Matt. 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 17:24-37, II Thess. 2:1-5, Rev. 6:16-17;7:9-17). The verses in Revelation really specifically narrow it down to just before the Wrath is unleashed in the seventh seal. It is not a question of whether God is able to protect His own in the midst of pouring out His wrath, it is just simply He has foretold us in His Word that we will not be here literally but with Him before the throne while He pours it out upon the earth.

RT: I read the other thread and still don't see Biblically sound doctrine.

Wordsower: The only "concrete" is the Written Word of God without men's interpretations needed to stitch it together. From the beginning of my calling to preach in 1997, I have known from His Word and confirmed by His Holy Spirit the dangers of the pre-trib argument and how it does not stand up against scripture. I have written my own docs on the subject and have posted in these and other boards over the last several years what the Word of God has to say on the subject. However, few in here will examine what I have to say even though it is directly from the Word of God so, I am also posting sound reason I have had from others. The Sign Ministries with Van Kampen was one of my earliest contacts regarding the subject. They sent me a lot of Studies and books freely back in 1998 while I was just beginning my ministry. As far as the SDA, that is pretty brash to call them a cult. It was 3Angels Broadcasting that first softened my heart that the Lord could reach out to me. While I do not hold to all their doctrines, I find them far more Biblical than many of the "back-biting, back-stabbing ones" within the Pentecostal movements over the last few decades. They at least "walk what they talk". :il: Once, a friend invited me to an SDA prophecy seminar at their SDA church. The speaker was totally way off as far as the millenium concepts as compared to what is actually written but, before each night's meeting, he put forth Jesus Christ and His Gospel 100% Biblically. Many were saved and came to Christ. The Lord spoke to me how the view of His Millenial Reign is as important as bringing in repentent souls to His Salvation today. I will say that the SDA never preached the escapism of pretrib though that I have ever read or heard. At any rate, I no longer engage in debates which can lead to moderators banning someone or deleting threads. I simply post if so lead, the pertinent information that counters whatever Biblically unsound presentation I see. It is up to each individual to be a "Berean" and read and check against God's Word to "see if it be so."

Some of the best Word based reasoning outlining 14 pre-trib arguments.

From: Will Christians Go Through the Great Tribulation?

From: Questions for the Pre-tribulationists "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hi whatsitmean: Wow are you fast on the draw! Actually, I accidentally hit the "Add Reply" instead of the "Preview" on that post when I posted it. I immediately found it, proof read it and, realized some of my humorous wording could be mis-construed. So, I immediately edited it, then updated the post. It maybe took somewhere between 5-7 minutes. Anyway, what you saw was some sarcastic jest which when I read it, needed some changes before going on. Now in all honesty, These events described have been going on in large scale since Christ. The one on the black horse (appears after the second seal is opened), was given the ability to "take peace from the earth" and was given a "great sword". What I found interesting though, is that the one on the "red horse" is given a "set of balances" to weigh the worth of values of goods. The words "a measure" simply represent a common measuring amount that Strong's suggests is "uncertain" as to it's actual representation today. But, all one has to do is understand the 1600's English usage to get the idea. It actually means the equivalent to a "wine quart" or liquid quart plus one twelfth of a quart (a "bakers dozen" of sorts of 1/12's or 13/12's quarts). A "penny" is translated from "denarion" which amazingly was the worth of about 10 asses/donkeys during the time of John. This has to then be taken into context that one would have had to pay about 100 to 150 times that "measure" for a donkey in Jesus' time. But, how long has bread (a loaf represents about a "measure") been over $1.00? Did you know that for centuries up until the early 1900's, a loaf or measure was worth a "penny"? It began to rise steadily in the 1900's outpacing itself ever in history. Same is true for all products and foods. All in all, there is no specific time or time allotment/limits to the seals and the four horsemen. I honestly believe that when this earth entered the 1900's, many prophesies of the end times correlated to the "opening of the seals" began and have been increasing with fervor. Therefore, if we come to see the four horsemen in light of "spirits", we can easily see that they have been at work for some time at least within the last 100 years. No, the antichrist will not be the "white horseman" rather, he will have a semblance of virtuous and peaceful man. And, his apearance/revealing is scheduled after these four horsemen have been already long into their work. God Bless.

wordsower: I did not say one of the two witnesses will not be Elijah.

Wisdom: So beautifully and eloquently put my brother! I am printing that one out. God Bless.

wordsower: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Snowdoove: Let's take this a step at a time; Do you believe Jesus Christ Resurrected to life from death after three days and rose in His Flesh Body? God Bless.

Snowdoove: Let's not use the word "Rapture" then, ok? Let's talk about the "Resurrection" since that Word is in the Word of God. The event I believe you speak of is one that stemmed from an celtic girl in England (Mary McDonald(?)) who supposedly received from God that the Rapture will occur before the antichrist and the Great Tribulation. That is where it spread from but truthfully, it had it's beginnings long before then, the Church in Jesus Christ simply rejected it (mostly). That is why we must reject all doctrines except those that are soundly from the Word of God and not just because it "suddenly sprang up in the last few centuries". It IS a doctrine in error but, we must prove why it is in error - "test the spirits". The only measurable "test" given of God is His Word. If anything conflicts with His Word, then it is not from God. Truthfully, though I be "post-trib/pre-wrath", I could far easier prove a "pre-trib rapture" than "no rapture at all" simply because the "resurrection" IS in the Word of God and especially exhorted on by Christ and the Apostles in several places. It is our Hope, our future Salvation from God's Wrath and Judgment that we live in and give evidence of that Hope in Jesus Christ today in our lives. So, do not just reject a doctrine because it came into being supposedly in the 1800's. Rather prove any doctrine by the Word of God. Now, you mentioned Joseph Smith. Do you believe he was a prophet of God? God Bless.

snowdoove: You do not believe we will be "raptured" or "caught up" to the Lord before He pours out His Wrath??

whatsitmean: Whoa! A "bow"? Where does it say the a/c will have a "bow"? If you are referring to the "four horsemen" in Rev. 6, then who are the other 3? These four rather represent 4 spirits of War, Murder, Famine and, Death. God Bless.

That is not how he will be revealed. Christ referred to Daniel's Prophecy about this man but, specifically to the "abomination that maketh desolate standing in the Holy place". That will be the "little horn" speaking great blasphemies from the Holy seat of God in the Temple. Thanks to John's Revelation, this is confirmed by him also. And, Paul referred to this "revealing of the man of sin/perdition" in II Thess. 2. So, a man with a guillotine instead of the instruction in Matthew 24 about the kind of servant He expects to find? God Bless.