Keith

Exactly. God is not subject to the whims, thoughts, understanding, demands, sympathies, tantrums, wishes or logic of people. If every single living thing in the universe got together, in one accord, and stood before the Lord and demanded their way on a particular issue, it wouldn't matter. It would have the same effect as a gnat banging its head against a boulder in order to move it. God is God and, in His infinite wisdom, made the rules to what He knows is right. People need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and reflect for a moment. Stop trying to make the scriptures conform to your understanding and begin conforming to what the scriptures say. You don't have to, and never will, understand all of the scriptures. But you are called to conform to them and put your faith and trust in God according to them. That's because it's rare to find those who are truly surrendered to, and in absolute love with, God. Those who are, ask this question all the time. The rest remained focused on themselves and their own ways.

The punishment is eternal in that it last forever. the torment doesn't Hell is not forever, it is done away with in the lake of fire Revelation 20 The Great White Throne Judgment 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. The point being that it is still eternal. "Hell" being the general word that people use to describe eternity without God. If a person wanted to really debate this, there is much more than has been discussed here. Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire doesn't mean that they're destroyed or done away with. It simply means that they're in the lake of fire, too. There's nothing that says those in Hades don't remain in Hades when it's cast into the lake of fire. Nothing in the scriptures indicates that torment stops. You're ASSUMING that because death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire that they don't exist and that torment in them stops. Where does it say that? It doesn't. We MUST go by what the scripture says. It talks about eternal torment and punishment. Period. Scripture says that people will either spend an eternity WITH God or WITHOUT Him. Eternity means eternity. There is nothing in the scriptures that signifies that torment goes on for a limited time and then stops, or that the person then completely ceases to exist. Nothing. And what's more, there's NO benefit to the debate. If it's being discussed for academic curiosities, between the brethren, that's fine. But, in online forum settings, it ALWAYS turns into debating with people demanding they're right. It only causes hard feelings and stumbling blocks. For example: Notice the ONE thing you latched onto in my response? You completely ignored the rest of my post and didn't address it. You want to be right and you're interested in getting YOUR point across without dealing with anything else. THAT'S my point. Believe what you want. You're entitled.

As I read through this thread, I find people are trying very hard to shape the scriptures around their own thoughts, their understanding, and what they want to be true. I see a lot of "What if..." and "I don't think..." type statements. Eternity is NOT a What If game and it's NOT dependent on what we believe about it. It is what God says it is in His Word. And He's very clear about it. Granted, people are free to believe whatever they want. People are allowed to be wrong. But you can't do that and call it Christianity because it's what YOU want to be true. The very nature of truth is that there can only be ONE truth. And, if that truth has any bearing on our eternities, which it does, then it behooves us to find out exactly what that truth is, regardless of whether we like it or not, stop arguing about it, and conform to it... and STOP trying to conform the truth to our way of thinking. Hell is eternal. The Bible is MORE than clear on this issue. That's why it uses words like "eternal" and "forever and ever" and "everlasting." How those words can be confusing is a mystery to me. But just SAY for the sake of argument that hell is not eternal. What benefit is that to anyone? Hell is still hell, separation from Jesus. It's not a party town. Satan doesn't rule and reign there. It's still torment beyond comprehension and no one in their right mind wants to experience it for ANY length of time. Our time is better spent KEEPING OUT of hell altogether, and snatching others off the wide road that's leading them there. To argue how long hell lasts is an inane waste of time that benefits nothing and nobody. If you believe hell is temporary, what do you say to unbelievers? "Don't worry about it. It won't last forever. When it's done you'll just vanish altogether from existence." That's ridiculous. EDITED TO ADD THE WORDS OF JESUS HIMSELF: Matthew 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Eternal means eternal, not temporary. Basic English. The torment of the wicked in hell is as eternal as the joy of the righteous in heaven.

As other have said, hell was created for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41, "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels". So, if it was created for the devil and his angels, why do many people go there, too? Because the Bible says that children will live with their father. We are either a child of God or child of the devil. Here's the distinction between the two. 1 John 3:10, "By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." John 8:44-47, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” But, thank God that He provided THE way, THE truth and THE life, through His Son so that WHOSOEVER WILL can receive forgiveness and eternal life with God! John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." The choice is ours. Every person is solely responsible for their own choice... and the consequences of that choice.

My only agenda is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. That can be done whether I'm alone on a mountain with the clothes on my back, or in the middle of a crowded city, with or without a computer. Either way, I'm content. My intention isn't to be pious in saying that. But I can say that because I've been through so much, only to find that every victory, every valley passed through, every need met, every mountain high, was only possible because of Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross. If it weren't for Him, I would have been crushed decades ago. Every breath belongs to Him. It's obedience I'm after, and what brings Him the most glory. If I get a computer, He will be glorified through it. If I give the money away, He will be glorified in it. I just want to be sure to do whatever brings Him the MOST glory possible! It's kind of a battle between wanting so much to DO what I can for Him, knowing that He desire more for me (us) to just BE with Him and BE available to Him. He doesn't need us to DO anything. He doesn't need our money to accomplish His will. He just wants US, and to be available and obedient. It sounds simple, but there's a part of me that feels like Bilbo Baggins wanting to storm the enemy with my little dagger, just because I love Him, no matter what happens! I wish I was better with words so I could express what I feel so strongly, in a way that folks might understand. I haven't lost the plot, I assure you!

I didn't know anything about the book, or this young man. But, I do see his repentant heart and I rejoice over this lost soul that was found and restored! Paul called himself the chiefest of sinners, but I assure you that I give him a run for his money. God is glorified and rejoices in our repentence! I can do no less than my Master. Luke 15:7, "I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."

Sounds like your being honest, however, the events of the end will occur how God's Word says as written, and that's what those who hear 'voices' are supposed to use to verify. So for my choice, I choose to listen to my Heavenly Father and His Son in His Holy Writ instead of your 'voice' you heard. There is such a thing as evil spirits too ya know, and God will use them to test His people with, as He did in Old Testament history also. If that 'voice' be from God, then it will completely align with God's Holy Writ. Problem is, the pre-trib rapture idea does not align with His Holy Writ, Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 are just two Scriptures He gave that proves what I said. And you should go by scripture. Always. When I heard, "I've called you for the end times," it was meant for me, not anyone else. It's not meant to prove, or disprove anything. It was the Holy Spirit speaking with me. How do I know it was the Holy Spirit? 1) Because there's precedent in the Bible for God doing this. And God doesn't change. And 2) because the events of my life, in hindsight, have prepared and trained me for those I'm called to reach right now. It's proven true in my life. My life bears the fruit of it being from Him. It doesn't require anyone else to believe in it or not. The problem with your statement is that you say your belief of a post-tribulation rapture is proven in God's Word, and thus nullifying my experience in the above paragraph because of what YOU think. You are fully entitled to believe in a post-tribulation rapture. That's your perogative. I won't debate the issue because I've never seen anyone ever change their mind on the issue. So, then it's good to know that, according to you, my life has been influenced by devils... despite the good fruit and God being glorified. It's good to know where you stand.

@seandavids and kenthomas - I really appreciate your kind words and found them encouraging. I still haven't made up my mind 100% either way, yet. I don't want to make any decisions until the time comes. I've been ruled by peace for so long and I won't make a move without it. Again, I really do see both sides of this. Of course it's okay to get a new computer. I know that. If I go ahead and get it, it will be without guilt or condemnation. But, I can't ignore how deeply I just want to make a difference in the little time we have left on this earth. With the money I would spend on a new computer, I know a sound, godly ministry that supports missionaries around the world. They, like me, follow the George Muller method of trusting God (through prayer alone) to meet their needs without having to ask people for money. If their work is of God, then God will meet their needs. And He's answered their prayers with the same type of miracles that He answered mine with! The money I send them could support 10 to 14 godly, earnest missionaries for a whole month! It could buy about 300 copies of the Jesus movie that missionaries have used to win millions of souls for Jesus! Those movies are in constant need and used by missionaries at Gospel For Asia! One movie has been known to bring entire villages to Jesus! That's what I can't stop thinking about. A computer? It would be nice but what kind of eternal difference would it make?

Great thing about Minneapolis is that heat is included in the rent. My heart breaks for homeowners. During hard, long winters, it's not unusual to find a senior citizen who died in their home because they couldn't afford to turn their heat on. That always makes me mad. So senseless. Honey Orange Glazed Chicken in 15 minutes and counting...

Well, it's been a flurry of activity here. I got called downstairs for something urgent regarding the boiler. I was in a t-shirt, sweatpants and my slippers. They wanted to let me know that the boiler was working. I asked what was urgent and they said the driveway needed to be salted. It's underground parking so you have to go down an incline. When the heat went out, the radiant heat under that portion of the driveway froze so it all the cars driving over it turned into compact ice. Since it will take a several hours for it to thaw with the radiant heat back on, I had to salt it. I just went outside dressed as I was, slippers and all and it took all of three minutes because we use a grass seed spreader. (At least it warmed up to only -18°F.) Because I'm sick (disclaimer), I was annoyed because they (the maintenance guys) could have done it just as easily. After all, they left me here all night to do their work, bleeding the lines, because they couldn't wait to leave and hand off the boiler problems (a building with no heat) to someone else. I'm a caretaker. It's not my job. It's their's. But I did it to help them out. It took me hours! They couldn't do this three minute chore for me? Not happy. I'm cranky. I'm sick.

That is honestly one of my favorite scenes to witness! I can't hold back the chuckles when I see a kid so bundled up they can hardly move, arms outstretched like a scarecrow doing his level best not to make the crows laugh! The best part is, they don't complain, bless 'em. They just waddle along.

I knew I liked you. Chili is the best. Very versatile. No two chilis are alike. Being sick, I've lost my appetite but I would definitely eat a bowl or two of chili right now. I may go eat a hot pepper just to relieve the sinus pressure.

Sounds like the perfect day, actually. Oddly enough, when it starts getting over 75°F (24°C), I start getting hot. I've always been sensitive to the heat. The cold is easy peasy for me. I always thought that was a fun "thing." (Eggs on the sidewalk.) Summers can get hot here, too, and the "thing" is to put cookie dough (on a cookie sheet) and leave it on your dashboard while you're at work.

Tried to nap but, since I laid down, I started feeling ill. I watched the manager's sick, two-year old for a couple hours yesterday because she was stressed out and needed a break. Guess who's sick now? Sure wish I was in London having my own delusions of grandeur. South Africa is gorgeous this time of year. Loved it when I was there. (Well, most of the time I was in Zambia.) But, for right now, I'm tucked up in bed. Won't be making any meals today. Filtering some water for the Neti Pot to see if that provides some relief.

Uff-da. Woke up to -35°F (-37.2°C) this morning, with the chance of getting as low as -40°F (-40°C). And we're the lucky ones! In the northern part of the state, they could see -50°F (-45.6°C)! The good news? It'll warm up to a high of -15°F to -25°F (-26°C to -31.7°C)! Break out the sun tan, baby! I'm going ice fishing! Not really. Actually, we've been having problems with the boiler in my apartment building. The heat went out yesterday for awhile. They finally got the heat running in the apartments (64 units), but not the rest of the building. Thank God the rest of the building is on a separate heating line! I was up late with the boiler guy working on it. The bad news is that today is the coldest day of winter and there's nothing that can be done about it because the pipes are too cold to work on. And, to ensure that the heat didn't go out in the apartments again, I got up periodically in the night to check the boiler and pray over it. God was faithful! So, I cleaned the common areas this morning, which was funny since I'm sure people will stay in their apartments today. Well, the ones not heading out to work anyway. They're a hearty stock, this bunch. The cold never stops Minnesotans. The proof? Some are still riding their bikes to work. Everyone's been sick with the flu though. The kind that won't let go. Thank God it's eluded me. I caught a cold yesterday, though, so I'm going to take it easy today, given the chill in the air. (You can toss a cup of boiling water in the air and it will turn to snow instantly. Look for folks to do that on YouTube today. Always happens. We're so proud.) Well, time to take a nap, then make coffee. (I have too much blood in my caffeine system already, but I need a nap.) Lunch today will be a Roasted Orange Herb Chicken, with enough for Chicken -n- Dumplin's for dinner and Chicken Fried Rice for tomorrow's lunch. Then, it's simmering the carcass (ugliest word, right up there with "moist") for homemade chicken stock. Thank God for sales! A whole chicken for $2.50! Kinda makes you nervous, dudn't it? So, what's your story?

I know what you mean. I often have to read it several times to really understand what he's getting at. Personally, it helps me a lot to read it out loud. That's a habit I've made of reading the scriptures, actually. I always read the Bible out loud. It's one way I proclaim the Word of God as well as claiming the promise that it never returns to Him void.

I'm not laughing. When I was a little boy (I'm nearly 49), I wanted to be a nun, too! Then, when I understood that nuns were women, I wanted to be a monk. The idea of living a sequestered life appeals to me. It still does today. If I had my way, I'd be living in the mountains of Wyoming or Montana, in a little log cabin, near a stream with a garden, a horse and a dog, making a living off the internet. I'm not kidding. But, I know that's not God's plan for me. And that's what matters, not what I want or what I feel. So, in that spirit of love and obedience, I wanted to say a few things, including some caution. Is this what God wants you to do? Have you sought His will on this or is it something you want to do? And why do you want to do it. (Rhetorical questions for you to answer for yourself, not here on the forum.) Our motives matter. A lot. I ask these things because what you're wanting to do is called "monasticism." It's grown in popularity recently, being called "New Monasticism" and aimed at evangelicals and protestants. In this, people are withdrawing from a society to live a poorer, more simple, communal lifestyle, and working with the poor and the hurting. I know all about this because I live an incredibly simple lifestyle and people often ask if I'm Amish, or if I'm trying to be a monk. (I'm not. And I don't live that simply. It's just that, according to this world's ways, my life has the appearance of being that drastic.) These new monastic folks claim the desire to live out the gospel more literally and sharing the love of Jesus with people. They want to BE the church, not just go to, or be members, OF a church. These communities, no matter how they group themselves (co-ed, all male, or all female) end up living to a set of man-made rules that are set by the elders, or leaders, of the group. This is where people need to be very careful because this often leads to a legalistic system based on works and rule keeping views of salvation. The Great Commission commands us to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to obey all that Jesus commanded. Communities, like the Amish, as well as cults, and some monastic groups, end up staying to themselves, completely separating themselves from society altogether. Following God's rules always trumps following anyone's rules... even those of a monastic society. Biblical doctrine should never be ignored or come second place to that of a society or group. That's how sects, cults and religions like Mormonism come into being. Doctrines of men are created and followed while the Word of God comes second at best. I love living simply and being set apart from this world. I'm constantly examining my life in this way. The closer I become to Jesus, the less attractive everything to do with this world is to me. So much so that my flesh wants to hide away and just abide in Jesus. But, I know that's not the biblical example set forth, so I could read this thread without cautioning you to pray for God's will for you in this, and examine your motives for why you want to do this.

When it comes to God and science, it's necessary to remember that God gave us science. They aren't enemies. When God and science DO conflict, it's always science that is error. God is perfectly ominiscient and the Creator of everything. Man is a created being with a sinful nature, prone to error, bias, pressure, deception, self-importance and rooted in pride. When man performs science, it's with imperfect, incomplete information performed with imperfect methods and limited understanding. Science can't figure out if coffee and chocolate are good, or bad, for us. Those findings change almost weekly. When they come to a consensus on that, I'll stop laughing.

My building a computer would be an "immaculate contraption!" I don't have aptitude in that area. I marvel at people like Patriot who understand not only the lingo, but the intricacies of technology. It's just impressive to me. I'd be happy just to carry their tools for them!

I understand what you're saying in the first paragraph, but I don't think that's the case with me, at least not this time around. When my mind comes up with something and continual thinks about it, I'm used to putting that thing to prayer, leaving it with Him, and going away with His peace. For some reason, this time, my brain isn't letting go of it, which is silly becuase it's not exactly a matter of urgency or great importance. So, after awhile I decided to do the next thing and bring it up here to see what the family has to say. As far as the situation itself is concerned, I know it's not wrong for me to do either thing - to give the money away or to buy the computer. I'm not worried about that at all. From my own experience, which doesn't mean it always has to happen this way, God responds when the action is needed. There's no guilt, obligation or reason as to why I would prefer giving the money away, other than as an act of worship and thankfulness. I know God doesn't need my money. But, the closer I grow to Him, and the more time I spend with Him, all I want to do is enjoy and glorify Him in every possible way! If I buy a new computer, I'm sure it's perfectly fine! But, I also see this as an opportunity to worship Him and grow in the fruits of the Spirit by denying my flesh (since it's not an absolute necessity). Either way, I won't be hasty in my decision.

Thanks, Marilyn. I always enjoy reading your posts. They're so thoughtful and care is always taken to really consider the person you're responding to. Just something I've noticed about you. I fully understand what you're saying. I got over my legalistic, trying to be the Holy Ghost, Jr. to everyone phase. I'm not under any condemnation about spending money on myself when it's warranted. If I have a genuine need that can be met by simply buying what I need, I pray about it and, unless directed otherwise by the Holy Spirit, will go ahead and buy what I need with the understanding that I'm only the steward and the provision comes from God as the Giver of all good things. That's kind of the crux of the matter this time around. My computer, as of right now, still works perfectly. I don't have a single problem or issue with it. It's from my conversations with others online, whenever upgrades come up, that I learned my computer may soon not be supported by them. So, it's an anticipation of a problem that's eventually bound to come. I wouldn't classify it as a "need" at this time. But, like I said, I'm not worried about this in any way. I know that when the time comes, it won't be a life or death matter! I'll obey whatever I feel I'm prompted to do.

jmlusa - Thank you. It's because of my testimony to God's faithfulness and provision that I'm even wondering about this at all. Because I know Him in this way so intimately, I want to honor and glorify Him for it by continually increasing in faith in this area. It's not even about the computer. That's just the noun in the sentence. It's just the object. I want to concentrate on the verb - the action in the sentence. threeheartsn1 and patriot - Those are definitely good points to consider, thanks for bringing them up. In my case, the manager and I (as the caretaker) work closely together and are good friends, so I know her needs. She definitely needs a reliable computer for work purposes. I already talked to her about the situation. She knows and understands that it's not definite. But, if it works out, she said she'd love to have my current computer. She rarely uses them. She needs it mostly for work and occasionally for looking something up. Since she uses a computer even less than I do, certain softwares not being supported anymore would barely affect her. (Even so, she knows she can come down the hall and use it anytime, even now. As for her kid, he's two, so she's not concerned about him with a computer yet.)

I like what Marilyn wrote very much. It's not only true, but she said it beautifully. Spurgeon is saying that God is the Creator of ALL light. Not just physical light, but also, as Marilyn keenly pointed out, the Giver and Keeper of the light of the knowledge of the glory of God inside every believer. It's the supernatural light of the soul of the believer. Regardless of how we feel, God still sees that light and we are His. (Matthew 5 says we are the light of the world.) We may feel down and discouraged, but God sees the light and preserves and keeps us. We may feel far from Him at times, and be full of doubt, but God knows we are His because He sees the light inside those who long for Him. His burden is light because He preserves and keeps us.

I hope it's alright if I weigh in. I'm not really responding to a particular post, but to the title of the thread. I'd also like to say upfront that I'm not a debater. I don't have time for it and, personally, I've seen it cause more harm and division within the body of Christ, and harm to the cause of Christ outwardly, than any minute fraction of good that may have come from debating the rapture. I am, however, always happy to answer questions and discuss things! But, since this is not a salvation issue, there is some liberty, as well as grace, self-control and patience, that comes into play during discussions. I'm much more interested in being found faithful in these fruits of the Spirit. I would rather be blessed as a peacemaker, than fight to be right. Also, I don't consider myself the last word, or an authority, on the subject. I'm just a faithful and diligent student whose desire is only in the truth. When I became a Christian almost 32 years ago, just over a year had past when I heard about the end times. Boy, did I sit bolt upright when I did! My attention wasn't going anywhere else! Could this be real? Could the world end? I made the decision at that moment that I had to know the truth. If the world was going to end, I wanted to know about it and what I could, or needed to, do. Then I "heard" the Holy Spirit say (whether audibly or in my head, I don't know), "I've called you for the end times." Only once before did I hear that voice (whether audibly or in my head, I don't know). Shortly after I was saved, I heard the Holy Spirit say, "I've called you to be single." Long story short, that proved to be true in my life. And God provided richly for me to be able to live without a wife. Looking back, I understand this calling on my life. So, when I heard, "I've called you for the end times," I perked up. I had no idea what it meant but it got my attention. At that moment, a sense of urgency filled me and I physically gasped, like I heard something shocking and had to catch my breath. So, I began my eschatological studies. Ten years passed and I felt that sense of urgency hit me again... and I gasped. It continued to happen, but the amount of time between each "sense of urgency" became shorter. For the last two years, that sense of urgency hasn't gone away at all. It's always there. Time is short. It's time to put away all foolishness, every worldly thing that has a hold on your life and surrender wholly to Jesus, letting the Holy Spirit finish the work He began in you. What things of this world take you away from Jesus? What takes your time? Your devotion? Your interest? This is the time to examine yourselves. Get right with God to be found unashamed at His coming. Proclaim Jesus. This is the message I've been given to spread. 2 Timothy 2:21, "Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work." Regarding the end times, I've studied diligently, and repeatedly, in fasting and prayer, for the last 30 years. Several times I've laid aside everything I learned or thought I knew, any biases, and sought God fresh on it. Not once has the outcome been different and not once have I swayed. I am personally, 100%, unwaveringly convinced in a pre-tribulation rapture. The imminency of the rapture has a sanctifying influence in believer's lives. It's our hope. And the tribulation period is a time of judgment on the wicked world and punishment for Israel. I also do not believe in a "partial rapture" where only "Super Christians" will be raptured while the others are left behind. Absolutely nothing in the scriptures supports that. There isn't a single scripture that says any Christian will be left behind. So, to answer the question in the title of this thread, "What does it mean to 'be ready?'" It means to be a true, bible believing, born-again Christian. If, through a repentant heart, you have obeyed the gospel by believing that Jesus died and rose again for your sins, you will not be left behind. A good question, then, is this: What are Christians to be doing while we watch and wait for the rapture? 2 Peter 3:14, "Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by HIm in peace, without spot and blameless."

Yes, Spurgeon is definitely a blessing. His book The Anointed Life is incredible. I haven't been able to stop thinking about this day's devotion (above). The reality of it astounds me! It makes me want to know and please Him more! It makes me hate my sin more deeply! It brings a deeper understanding of Psalm 8:4, "What is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him?" You love me that much? Are you kidding me?! How can I serve you? Whatever you want. Anything. Just name it. Nothing is too great to ask for the God who gave up everything for me in order to give me Everything! I just want to know you and be with you!