Marcus O'Reillius

REV 3:18 DOES NOT SAY THAT. 17 Because you say, " I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. The Great Multitude are in Heaven not because they bought those white robes, but because they washed their souls with the blood of Jesus; the white robes signify the righteousness of the Saints - Rev 19:8. That righteousness reverts back to a Christian principle called JUSTIFICATION. Because Jesus is Holy, those He washes clean with His Blood, then are seen through Him as Holy unto the Father, and the same word for "holy" in both the Greek and the Hebrew, is then translated as "saint" to us. We are only made righteous by Jesus' Righteousness. What Jesus is doing in the letter to the Church of Laodicea is juxtaposing their reliance on things material to the requirement for spiritual gifts from God. Taking the analogy further, He says they should "buy" "gold" from Him. Now Jesus is not a merchant, so taking this statement and running with it so as to come up with a principle of Christian faith that we "buy" faith is utterly ridiculous and fallacious and is not found in any Epistle. SALVATION CANNOT BE BOUGHT NOR EARNED. It is only through FAITH that Salvation is GRANTED. 18 The commands of Christ correspond exactly to the self- deceptions of the Laodiceans. Gold, a source of the wealth of the city, was to be bought from Christ and to become the spiritually poverty- stricken's true wealth. Their shameful nakedness was to be clothed, not by purchasing the sleek, black wool of Laodicea, but by buying from Christ the white clothing that alone can cover shameful nakedness (16:15). For those who were blind to their true condition, the "Phrygian powder" was useless (cf. comments on v. 14). They needed to buy salve from Christ so that they could truly see. The reference to buying would recall the famous market near the temple of Men Karou, where the commodities manufactured at Laodicea could be bought, along with imports from other areas. But to what do gold, white clothes, and salve symbolically refer? Minear suggests the following: The only cure for poverty- stricken disciples was to purchase from Christ gold which is refined in the agonies of the shared passion. For their nakedness (did Hans Christian Andersen find here the theme of "The Emperor's New Clothes"?) the only recourse was to buy such clothes as the naked Christ had worn on the cross. The blindness of self- deception could be cured only by understanding the correlation between Christ's love and his discipline These three purchases constitute a substantial definition of the kind of zeal and repentance which was the burden of all John's prophecies. The thrust of these commands moves in the direction of rigorous warning They are tantamount to saying "Open your eyes" and "Carry your cross." This letter argues against the widespread assertion of many interpreters to the effect that John's chief concern was to provide consolation to a persecuted church. Nearer the mark would be the opposite assertion; that John, like Jesus, was concerned to bring not peace but a sword (I Saw a New Earth, p. 57). ~ Expositor's Bible Commentary on Rev 3:18 YOU DO NOT "BUY" THE HOLY SPIRIT.

You know, it's sort of like harassment when you try to discredit everything I post. It seems like you follow me around saying - NOT TRUE; FALSE! And you do so without any credibility. And YOU are the LAST ONE to tell me that I should "pay attention" and seek "discernment". During the one 'seven', after the talking image of the beast is displayed, two laws go to into effect. Two laws we're told to disobey to the point of death or else we will never inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Worship or die Take the mark of the beast or don't buy or sell. SO ~ if anyone buys or sells during this time, while they're waiting for the LORD to come, they forfeit their inheritance. Now it's not false, not even completely false. IN FACT, IT'S TRUE, BECAUSE IT COMES OUT OF SCRIPTURE. Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. And here is what God has to say about it. Rev 14:9b "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." And this is said RIGHT BEFORE the Harvest, when those ten virgins would be just waking up and the five foolish ones figured out that they didn't have enough physical oil to keep their lamps burning, and the five wise virgins tested them saying, 'go buy some.' So what is wild conjecture? Your take that the ten virgins somehow relate to the seven Churches. You want to spout that? Fine. Go ahead. But just because you have some queer notion about how to interpret parables does not mean that other people's thought on it are completely false - because you don't hold the title on the TRUTH.

Post all you want Roy, I am amused at how you rationalize it all, but I'm not swayed a bit. I can only imagine what lies after this material world, this "Heaven" which existed and came before any of what we even know came into being. For you to make your construct of what Heaven is, to define it's Kingdom, and do so with both in purely physical terms of creation; ignores that where Jesus is now existed before earth even was, much less its atmosphere which came later. I prefer an eschatological rendering: 3rd Heaven: In the Presence of God the Father, the original Temple, and more which defies my ability to comprehend it all. 2nd Heaven: The Glass Ceiling, right next to God; where those martyred for their faith wait impatiently. 1st Heaven: Paradise: set in garden terms, a place of rest: Abraham's bosom. Where the Dead await, knowing nothing. .....Next to it: Hades, a hot, dry place of torment, separated from Paradise by a chasm. .....Below: the Abyss - a place, perhaps at that the bottom of that chasm, where spirits from the time of Noah are imprisoned. All are in the spiritual realm, more real than what we have here and now, which will disappear, eventually.

I'm really uncomfortable with that approach because I think that Jesus is just as unchanging as the Father and was just as much a part of the Godhead when Elohim brought forth time, space, and matter simultaneously as He is now.

Virgins can denote those who are faithful and had no other God. Oil can denote faith. The ten virgins do relate to the Kingdom of Heaven. "...is like..." A salient fact here is that all ten are virgins, and all had lamps filled with oil. Another salient fact is that only five had oil containers apart from their lamps. The other salient fact is that the Groom tarries. All ten sleep. This sets up a conundrum when they awake. The five foolish virgins demand the five wise virgins share their oil. A question here is why don't they? Why would they be fearful of not having enough? And a third question here is why do they tell the others to "buy" some oil, if oil is indeed faith? In the time of the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord is unknown. It is delayed until the number of the Elect who will be martyred are martyred to bring the number of the fifth Seal martyrs into alignment with God's Plan. Even Jesus does not know the Day. The Great Tribulation goes beyond the breaking point... In this time, if one buys or sells, they take the "mark" and so are excluded from the Kingdom of Heaven. Just as the five foolish ones knock and the Lord says, "I do not know you." It's a test. They failed. Keep the faith, remain steadfast, and endure patiently. You don't have to "make it" to the end to "make it" into Heaven.

OKAY.

THAT'S FOR EMPHASIS. Anyway, you have nothing to offer, and this is getting repetitive, which is as frustrating as talking to a wall, so as I feel my JOY slipping away; I bid YOU adieu.

Actually he doesn't say Jesus NEEDS to lead them to Living Waters IN ORDER TO HAVE IMMORTAL AND IMPERISHABLE BODIES. Those they receive when they are either resurrected from the grave, or taken up if they remain and are left (after the Great Tribulation). As to places, the Great Multitude JUST GOT THERE - in the Temple, in Heaven. They haven't even had the wedding feast of the Lamb yet... sheesh. Some people want to make mountains out of molehills and choke on a gnat.

There you go again, Jesus never said He was going to issue them a room key at a hotel. He said He would prepare a place for them. They are placed.

No it doesn't. You did not produce anything that John refutes Scripture in 1Co 15. Nor is it very clear at all, and anytime someone tells me it is - I know it's not, and I know it's just their prior conclusion.

Oh sorry, but it doesn't and you're anything less than clear.

Oh! God is up in the clouds making it rain and shine. Yes, I know that's what you teach. Thank-you, I already understand quite a bit on the Kingdom of Heaven means; enough to know that when John goes to the third Heaven, he's not in outer space.

There is no difference? Making the Bible say what you want it to say, are we? If you don't see any difference, there is no way to teach you how they are different in more ways than one. You have NO logical rebuttal to the evidence provided in my previous post regarding the changing of mortal to immortal, so you are now pulling at straws and throwing mud everywhere hoping something sticks.

That is an unsubstantiated claim. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. Before they are taken to the barn of Heaven, they are raised imperishable. When those who remain, are raptured, they are changed in an instant to immortal. SO! When they arrive before the Father - they are already eternally alive! For flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God - verse 50 right before the quoted section. They WILL experience all that is said: they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes." John NEVER DENIES that they are eternally alive at that moment. Produce his words that say that explicitly or admit it is just your (incorrect) conclusion.

Attempts to institute some major rule based on a proverb that you have turned into an overriding principle is not wise. Nor does having the martyrs come last in being made alive invalidate the order of the taking up between the Dead in Christ and the Elect who remain as Paul gives us in 1st Thessalonians. That order is strictly between those two types on the Day of the Lord; which comes long before the end of the one 'seven' in a Pre-Wrath eschatology. Still, Pre-Wrath keeps that order intact as Paul gave it - on the Day of the Lord's Harvest of Saints. This "principle" you speak of is actually a proverb, and it is written here: The Disciples' Reward Mt 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" 28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first. First of all, Jesus says "many" - not all. That last part is better explained by real scholars who don't have an axe to grind. The proverbial saying (v. 30) is one Jesus repeats on various occasions. Here he immediately illustrates it by a parable (20:1- 16), climaxed by the proverb in reverse form (20:16) as a closing bracket. It indicates something of the reversals under the king's reign. Attempts to restrict the application of this parable to one setting are not successful. 1. Some say the rich become poor at the consummation and the poor rich (cf. vv. 16- 29), as in Luke 16:19- 31:the story of Lazarus and the beggar. But such reversals are not absolute:Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1- 10) was a rich man to whose house salvation came; and Abraham, to whose "bosom" the beggar went, had great wealth. 2. Many of the Fathers hold that the first- last idea refers to Jews and Gentiles respectively. Doubtless it may, but this theme is not dominant in these chapters. 3. Some think the proverb assumes that the disciples had been arguing about priority on the basis of who was first called, to which Jesus responds that "the last will be first, etc." But this better suits the situation in Matthew 18 than in Matthew 19. 4. It seems preferable, therefore, to take the proverb as a way of setting forth God's grace over against all notions that the rich, powerful, great, and prominent will continue so in the kingdom. Those who approach God in childlike trust (vv. 13- 15) will be received and advanced in the kingdom beyond those who, from the world's perspective, enjoy prominence now. ~ Expositor's Bible Commentary on Matthew 19:30

Agreed. It gets to the point where it's only 'stealing my joy', as you say.

Moderators: Yes, I see it is a pointless to go on. However, again to the moderators: Do you see how I might feel I am being badgered into responding?

No, they still await the completion of their number. They STILL have a glass ceiling which is their limit and has been for thousands of years. At the opening of the fifth Seal, this is when their existence is revealed, their cry heard, and they are reassured. However, they are not before the Father - yet. At the completion of the one 'seven', when the Two Witnesses are killed and then resurrected, and then lifted up - then the number of martyrs is made complete - and then they are "made alive" as are the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17. and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. - Rev 20:4 THEN and ONLY THEN does John proclaim the First Resurrection as a fact. He does NOT do so when the Great Multitude show up IN HEAVEN out of the Great Tribulation. They are not all who will be saved at that moment.

Duh, they're IN HEAVEN.

Advise: verb. Advice: noun.

Ho, hum. So what? Yes, that is what it says. And it hasn't happened yet, as the First Resurrection is not yet complete and the Millennium has not yet begun, and we're a thousand years away from the New Heavens and New Earth. They JUST GOT THERE. However, the moderators told me to ignore you, so that's what I'm going to do because really, I can't find a point to your post.

That is exactly true because it is Scripture. They are standing with palm fronds in front of the Father and the Son. He is not seeing the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation. They come out of the Great Tribulation - which links back to Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:29-31. Rev 7:14 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation," ἐρχόμενοι - Tense: Present Mood: Participle Voice: Middle or Passive Case: Nominative Gender: Masculine Number: Plural The Present Tense: The present tense can either be continuous/ongoing or undefined. The continuous present is usually translated as "I am loosing" while the undefined is best translated as "I loosen." When the present is used with the indicative mood it denotes present time. (Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm ) Furthermore, it is not acting as a verb, but is a participle. This is important and something you miss. Use of the Greek Participle A participle is called a 'verbal adjective' because it is formed from a verb, yet often modifies other words. Oftentimes it may be hard to to translate a participle into English and still bring out the same force as it has in the Greek. First try to understand the meaning of the Greek participle is trying to convey, then worry about an appropriate English translation. The translation may have to be as an English relative clause when used adjectivally in Greek. The participle can be used in one of three major categories of use: (3) Adverbially Participles can also be used in the same way that an adverb is, to modify a verb. There are different classifications and uses of adverbial participles. B) Causal Participle i) Indicates the Cause or Reason ii) Answers the question “Why?” iii) Translated by ‘because’ (or ‘since’) iv) John 4:6 “Jesus, being wearied, sat.” (‘Because Jesus was wearied, He sat.’) v) Perfect Adverbial participles very often belong to this category (i.e. convey this meaning). D) Participle of Purpose (Telic Use) i) Indicates the purpose of the action of the finite verb ii) Answers the questions ‘Why?’ iii) Should be translated with the English ‘infinitive’ or ‘with the purpose of’ or ‘in order to’. A simple ‘-ing’ translation misses the point. iv) (A future adverbial participles always belong here.) v) Luke 10:25 “A certain lawyer stood up testing Him (in order to test Him), saying, ‘Teacher, what must I do to gain eternal life?’” Source: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/participles.htm Because erchomai is not coupled with the indicative mood, you cannot say it is the present tense as is used in English. Greater understanding then is required for this Elder's explanation as John sees it at this particular junction in time. They do come out of the Great Tribulation, that is true, but John did not see that process, nor are they "in" the Great Tribulation when John sees them. The Elder's answer is in response to the Elder's own question: "and where have they come from?" They are standing before God. They came from the Great Tribulation. Good, sober, scholarly research prevents sloppy, haphazard misinterpretation.

Oh really? You know, what is NOT in the Bible is your "mass transit" scheme. Matthew 5:3 Matthew 5:10 Matthew 5:12 Matthew 5:19 Matthew 5:20 ~ and remember, because this will come up later in Revelation; God is in Heaven: Matthew 5:45 ....- and that's not floating in the sky, or outer space either Mister Ultra-literal/Heaven means sky-Roy. Matthew 7:21 Matthew 8:11 Matthew 11:11 Matthew 18:3 Matthew 18:4 Matthew 19:14 Mark 12:25 Luke 10:15 Luke 10:20 ~ and remember, because it's coming up, Jesus goes to Heaven in Luke 24:51 John 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." 2nd Corinthians 12:2 Philippians 3:20 Revelation 4:2 Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." ~ What John is describing is the entire Church and OT Saints, having been resurrected and Raptured, standing before God IN HEAVEN. Revelation 11:12 Revelation 14:17 Revelation 19:14 Now go and quote Book, chapter, and verse of all the times Scripture says we're plunked right back down into the devastation of the enemy in the Middle East, wherever you imagine we're set that you've said, but I immediately dismissed as fantasy.

No, Rev 1:7 has Jesus coming on the clouds just as He does at your secret Rapture event of 1Th 4:16-17. Rev 1:7 Behold, HE is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, Mt 24: 30 ...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect ..........~ That's ELECT - those God has selected: i.e., BELIEVERS. Elect is ALWAYS used for believers in the NT when speaking of people. Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. 2Th 2:1 ...with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, The second coming - on the Day of the LORD - is when the Rapture happens.

Rev 1:7 Behold, HE is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. You're right Oakwood, no secret about it...