forgiven1

You don't seem to have gotten the context of what the guy was saying. He wasn't a Jew hater, he was just pointing out some aspects of how Israel operates on political and covert levels mainly. Do you think Israel is as pure as the driven snow. Of course they aren't, no government is. The Massad is as notorious as any other covert agency. Also he pointed out that according to the intelligence at the time, those Kurds in Halabja were collateral damage of the war with Iran because both sides were using chemical weapons at the time and there was a battle in the Halabja area and the Kurds got gassed. He said the condition of the bodies showed the kind of gas used and it was actually Iranian gas of a kind Iraq did not have. The investigation was never pursued. Now, I can't prove that but I would hope this man being the CIA political analyst for Iraq at the time would have a whole lot better intelligence on the matter than you or I would and those were his conclusions after having seen the intelligence for the matter. Anyway, it's common knowledge where Saddam got most of his chemical weapons to fight Iran with, America. Anti semetic is much too loose a term these days if it means you are not to criticise the government of Israel. The war is mainly about geo-political advantage, oil, and protecting Israel. I don't think that's any secret.

How so? What I'm asking you is, if you don't believe in democracy, why do you think Iraq and Afghanistan need it and also pointed out that it is basically being forced on them. Well, Bush is wrong and the war is wrong so I would say yes, it's wrong, especially for Christians who should be folowing Christ not worldly governments and their wars in pursuit of hegemony. I didn't bash anybody, just beliefs, ideas, and actions. If you want to see that as personal that's up to you.

Isn't that how democracy is supposed to work? You don't believe in democracy? No, I don't. I think democracy works ONLY if the people hold to a moral basis. If they hold to an immoral basis, then democracy is worthless. A perfect example is Palestine where a majority of the people voted for a terrorist organization. Majority does not equal "right." So, if democracy doesn't work, why cram it down people's throats at the point of a gun? Is that the morals you are speaking about?

Check out what this CIA political analyst for Iraq, who received all the intelligence at the time, has to say about Halabja. It's a ways into the movie. Saddam had lots of enemies in the region that he had to fight against as any government would but answer me this. If it was Wrong for Saddam to invade Kuwait, why was it ok for America to invade Iraq when Iraq was absolutely no immediate threat to the US? Doesn't that fact make the US a rogue nation. That's not even mentioning the countless other invasions and covert opperations to undermine other governments that were no immediate threat. Freedom and democracy are not excuses to do wickedly or you are no better than any other wicked and power hungry government.

And Saddam posed a threat to the United States in 2003 how? Hi Forrest, My point was not the legitimacy or not of the invasion. Saddam posed a threat to the region and possibly the world, just as Iran does now, and we had the excuse of 9/11 to take him out so we acted on it. In general the region is better without him than with him, although we can debate that. I personally don't think it was a good idea, BUT it did happen. My point was that we did our military job back in 2003, after that we put ourselves in the midst of a Nation Building exercise in the middle of a civil war, not something that is a wise thing. The bizarre thing is I am so surprised that conservatives would be so happy with nation building; it is something that they specifically spoke of not wanting to do anymore and I think many conservatives including myself are still against this sort of forign entanglement. We couldn't solve Haiti's problems; we sure as heck are not going to solve the problems of the various people who live in Iraq. I say let them fight it out. If Iran gains too much power we can go back in and deal with them later but I don

Here's a truthful account of one marine. http://www.archive.org/details/JoelOyer_MarineInIraq The truth is, there is much more to the war in Iraq than the buzz words of freedom and democracy. This war is actually making the world a much more dangerous place. The country was much more peaceful under Saddam, all the schools were open then, things were stable, the price of oil was stable, the world was a much more peaceful, there was no Al queda operating in Iraq, Sunni and Shia lived at peace. The country did not threaten America at all, that was a farce. This was a self serving war but it has blown back in America's face. It's so obviously about oil and domination it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Russia and China will not allow American domination of the world's resources to go unchallenged and even now all sides are gearing up for a big fight that'll make Iraq look like kid's play. It won't be long now, the endtime is unfolding according to prophecy.

Isn't that how democracy is supposed to work? You don't believe in democracy?

We are unworthy in ourselves. It's only Jesus' forgiveness that makes us worthy, not ourselves. I think that's what people mean when they say unworthy.

You know, just because Elizabeth is Christian (if she is) doesn't mean she's right. I think most people in the world see more validity to Rosie's arguments than the pro Bush, pro war, flag waving patriotism, and anti Muslim bent of most of the religious right. There are plenty of loud and rude proponents of the religious right as well, such as Anne Coulter. I don't agree with Rosie on lifestyle but I think some of what she says has merit. This isn't an attack, just an observation. I'm not looking for a fight. I hope Elizabeth doesn't frequent this board or I'm in big trouble.

I don't know but she seems very republican.

Well it looks like this is how the law IS being characterized in that verse. What else could "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" be? It's pretty clear that it's the law being called "the ministration of death" which it says was "abolished" by Christ. I would tell her that Christ and a life of service to Him is the answer and that witchcraft would not make her happy or fill her need like Christ can. It's clear that witchcraft is not serving to God and is not submission to God through the Holy Spirit. David's frame of reference may have been the old law, but I can easily look at the Psalm in terms of the new law.

Verses 3 and 7 are direct references to the the 10 commandments so they are definitely talking about the law. Here's some more scriptures: Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Boy, you are really hung up on this animal sex thing aren't you. Your argument is really quite redundant though because that isn't likely to happen. But answer me this, if someone was to do that, do you think they should be stoned for it? That is most likely what the law would say. Yes....and no. We already do things quite contrary to many aspects of the Torah as Christians because they just don't apply any longer. Does anyone still consider their wife unclean if she have an issue of blood? Stoned any sinners lately? Do you eat bacon? Got any graven images around the house? Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. The Pharisees thought this contradicted God's Word but Jesus said they were in error. Contradiction of God's Word could mean different things to different people as is quite evident by the various doctrinal positions of believers. In actuality, no, the Spirit would never would never contradict God's word, but it might seem like that to some people, especially legalists. 2 Corinthians 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. This sounds pretty antagonistic to the Torah to me, more proof it is done away. All of the above.

To have sex with an animal? Why wouldn't the Spirit? After all, if He leads me away from having sex with the animal, He's upholding the Law. So why would he object to me doing something that isn't forbidden in the New Testament? Well, the Spirit has led people to do some pretty funny things I guess! I never said there was no law or that there aren't any similar concepts in the new law, but the law in the old testament was very different in many ways and it was necessary that the law be changed. The difference now is that it is the Holy Spirit in us that teaches us to walk in God''s ways.

Wow! So would this include Christian conversion? It just might, in which case it would be an antichrist law.