Fran C

See Farouk....The above is beautiful and a blessing to every Christian. Know the problem?: It doesn't represent your faith system. Come on over to this side...you belong with us. That would be those that believe that God is loving and merciful and just. Amen.

Agreed on the above. Let's remember that God always looks at the heart. And I just want to say that it's a shame that some unbelievers live a better life than some believers.

I'm back. Indeed, the preaching of Jesus to the spirits in prison has always been a mystery and I agree 100% with you that any doctrine we've been able to come up with is indeed not sound. I DID find some very interesting comments in a Catholic Bible edited or commented on by Dr. Scott Hahn, a very respected Catholic theologian that used to be Protestant. He also writes some very good books on different topics. Here is what I found...I think you'll find it interesting: (the commentary is a page long). The benefit of retrieving this forgotten perspective is obvious for interpreting 1 Pet 3:18-20. It seems now that "the spirits in prison" are not human souls at all, but fallen angels whose wickedness was closely connected with the flood in Jewish tradition. This accords well with the frequent use of "spirits" for angels in the NT (Mt 12:45; Lk 10:20; Heb 1:14) source: https://www.familyofsaintsharbel.org/uploads/1/2/4/2/124289884/ignatius_catholic_study_bible_new_testament_text___commentary.pdf The above is on page 456 of the PDG format.

Hi Michael I'd like to make two comments: 1. I really do not believe the CC uses 1 Peter 3:18-19 as proof text for purgatory. If you read this somewhere, I'd sure be interested in seeing it. 2. The CC does have a non-definitive belief for the passage about Jesus preaching to the souls in prison (can't remember exactly how it's worded right now) and I'd be happy to pass it along. Will wait for your reply. PS I'm not Catholic but I do know the doctrine.

I try my best to understand members. I DID ask if I understood you correctly. We're speaking past each other. I agree that we are not changed by good deeds only. Good deeds do not save a person. Our behavior is brought about by our love for Jesus. Agreed. Right. We do good works because of our salvation and because we're saved. What I'm saying is this: You agree that our transformation is brought about by our love for Jesus. Right. What I said is that IF there is no transformation in a person's life, it's difficult to understand how that person is saved. Do you agree that some kind of change must take place in a person's life if they're a born again person?

No, I don't need verses. I agree with the above. It's not how I understand 1 Cor 3 or otherwise Catholics who attribute purgatory to these verses would be correct - however it's too late now and I must sign off. However, I do agree with the4 premise. Could you read Matthew 10:41 and give your understanding? Tomorrow...

Not sure what you mean. Here are the answers to my questions: 1. We cannot judge a person's soul. Only God can judge the condition of our soul. 2. We CAN judge another person's behavior or doctrinal belief. If this were not true then Matthew 18:15.....would make no sense. As to taking things personally....on these forums there are many personal comments made that should not be made. We should always address the topic at hand and not the person. Regarding works....could you read Matthew 10:41 and post what you think of it? I believe that born again persons are saved but some kind of judgment will come at the end. In Christianity it's called the Bema Seat judgment. This means that the WORKS of the saved person are judged....maybe as to motive....maybe as to quantity....maybe as to why we didn't obey the Holy Spirit more... However, I don't feel I know enough about this and hope that others will join in.

You've added to your post.... So: What do you mean by judging one another? 1. §Can I judge the condition of your soul? 2. Can I judge re a doctrine you believe that seems to be incorrect? And, the NT speaks about being judged after death,,,thus my question to you....do you believe we are judged after death? Read this verse and give your understanding: John 5:28-29 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Start a thread!

The above is not for me but for @Vine Abider. but....do you believe that saved persons will be judged after death? What will they be judged for if they're already saved?

Agreed on all. It's difficult to post every little thing you believe in every single post....I was concentrating on what I thought someone said about being born again but showing no transformation. (maybe they meant never). Agreed again. The Holy Spirit will work in us as long as we allow Him to. We don't lose our free will when we become saved. The above is more re the point I was making. IF we don't let God grow us and operate in us, doesn't that mean that we have not accepted Him? The change might be gradual or it might be over-night (as in some cases), but the change SHOULD be seen in a person.

If salvation is not based on a transformed life... could you please explain the following verse?: Transformation means to change from one thing to another...it's the change that is required of us to live a life pleasing to God. Romans 12:2 2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. 2 Corinthians 5:17 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 3:18 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. 1 John 3:3 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. There are many more if needed. You're saying that a transformed life is not necessary in order to be pleasing to God. Have I understood correctly?? Could you post some verses to support this view? Thanks.

Where does it state that we are saved by JESUS' faith in Eph 2:8?? Eph 2:8 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Hi I've come back to this forum after quite a few years. I've noticed that I'm involved, taking part I should say, in a few threads but I never get alerted when someone is posting on these threads. It would help to make members be more parcipitory and feel like a part of the group of members. Also, this double spacing is making me crazy and it always separates my verse from it's "title". And how about a uniform size for the body? I think it might be helpful if these changes were put into place... but I must say that I like it here because it's not as rough as some forums are....some members on other forums hardly seem to be acting as Christians should be. Just some ideas! Blessings Fran

Sorry, I don't know to what you're referring. I'm not speaking about the works of the Law -or, in this conversation, any works.

Some MEN aren't so good at teaching either.... And this will be my last post to you.

Who said they're not?? Who said they're not? Who said otherwise? Surely you're misreading my comments to you. Yes sir. We do need some light in here.... That is IF you're willing to accept it. And this is 1 Tim 2:11-12 11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. Maybe you mean that you're not WILLING to learn from a woman?

Well, Who me....this statement of the thief on the cross is always a silly statement because WE are not on any cross, so to compare us to the thief is not proper. But to answer your question: Actually, the thief's life was transformed....wouldn't you say so? The other thief thought he did nothing wrong and mocked Jesus telling Him to get off the cross. Our thief realized he was sinful and asked for forgiveness. That's a change of heart. No time for a changed life. So,,,I repeat again: No transformation....no salvation, because, apparently, there was no change of heart. If you'd like to post some verses quoting what you're saying, it would be good to see. JESUS said to feed the hungry and cloth the poor. James said that faith without works is a dead faith. and more....

Oh. So I'm right again. You believe one must be regenerated/born again FIRST before They could be born again. You've stated it plainly above. Sounds like @Sower got it right. He properly understands the gospel and that it was written for the salvation of whoever wants to believe it... John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED.

What comes first? Faith or regeneration? Ephesians 2:8...tells me that I'm saved by faith.... To be born again means to become aware of God and to decide that the person wants to follow God and obey His commandments. To be regenerated means to be made new. A person must be born again first... and then he is regenerated. John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. According to Jesus, a person must first become born again and THEN he is allowed to enter into the Kingdom of God. (here on earth). I agree that a person that is born again is then regenerated. One comes to have faith...and he is born again...then he becomes regenerated. Perhaps you'd like to clarify what you believe. Exactly what I said you believe. You believe a person must be born again first,,,and then they have saving faith. IOW,,,you believe a person must be born again to become born again. One must have faith to be born again...NOT the other way around. Ephesians 2:8 Let's concentrate here: 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; Faith come first then salvation....simple grammar. If you don't think so,,,please post a verse. You might want to advise the rest of us.

Do you deny that you believe that God must regenerate you before you could have faith? Only a born again person is regenerated. So you believe a person must be born again before they can be born again. And you'll have to explain what 1 Timothy 2:11-12 has to do with this discussion. For now...good night.

Great points! I always understand predestination to be as to the HOW one is saved or the PURPOSE or WHY one is saved,,,as you've pointed out. It's clearly stated and only presuppositions that are taught could make anyone believe otherwise. Must say good night.

When it comes to the word of God....Implication is not acceptable. Anything can be IMPLIED from the bible...this is why it's studied so extensively...so that we can know THE TRUTH. The jailer wanted to know HOW he could be saved. Paul told him how. And, this is repeated throughout the NT. Romans 10:9 BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART, CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT PERISH Romans 10:13 WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED Acts 2:38 REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. and many more... Nowhere does it state that God will choose who will be saved.

Here we go again....getting personal. Guess you're out of good replies. Oh, and YES, I DO denigrate ANY theology that makes God out to be the creator of evil and the predestinater of that evil being perpetrated into people's lives. For instance...I DO find it rather horrifying that calvinists believe that God predestinates rape...murder of children...hunger world-wide....cancer...and every other manner of evil that, according to calvinists, HE perpetrates on human-kind. The very creation from Genesis which God stated was VERY GOOD. And here is the God you worship: Believers, again, admonished by the rod of God, immediately begin to reflect on their sins, and, struck with fear and dread, retake themselves as suppliants to implore mercy. Did not God mitigate the pains by which wretched souls are excruciated, they would give way a hundred times, even at slight signs of his anger. The Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 4, Paragraph 32 (you should really read the entire paragraph) And this one shows the complete illogical doctrines of calvinism: Another end which the Lord has in afflicting his people is to try their patience, and train them to obedience--not that they can yield obedience to him except in so far as he enables them; Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 8, Paragraph 4 IOW, God wants to train His people so they obey Him...but they cannot obey Him except that He enables them!!! Yes,,,I agree with Paul that this is a different gospel. The true gospel, that Paul and the Apostles agree to, states that the Holy Spirit will help us in keeping God's commandments....quite different.

Funny BA. YOU are the one that believes a person must be born again before they could be born again.