fixerupper

You misunderstood me. I said, "The only way the holy spirit can help people understand anything is for them to understand a little bit about the proper methods of interpretation, put unbiased effort in your studies. and be willing to change your mind when the evidence is there to do so. The holy spirit enlightens you by blessing your efforts, he just doesn't send you a telepathic message." One issue I see with Christians is that they use the holy spirit as a scapegoat to everything esp. 'enlightenment.' Understanding the Word of God is no different than accomplishing anything in life. Besides praying etc., we have to put our best effort foward in whatever it is we want the holy spirit to help us accomplish or obtain. Too many Christians think that to gain understanding all one has to do is pray for the holy ghost! It's messed up to see so many people say things like they're right because they have the holy spirit and the he wouldn't lie to them.

And I hear you again. The time is coming though when most of the bad stuff in Chrstianity will subside....I hope anyway. There are many doing the Lords work that we don't see, it's the ones we do see that are the bad ones who's tables need to turned over. I believe God is disappointed in His Church, but the time is coming when that will change.

Glad to see you have the right mindset. The tower of Babel isn't mystery Babylon. Babel is simply the birthplace of false religion. We are actually told what the MYSTERY is. It's actually "Babylon the GREAT" which is "a large false religion." Mystery Babylon says no such thing. Unity of all faiths has nothing to do with it. I keep asking for scriptural evidence, but all I get from people is that you have to have the holy spirit to understand these things. Show me scriptural evidence! NOBODY ever does! Moderate Islam is mostly in the West. But that's getting out of control now too. No radical or moderate sect of Islam will unite with any other religion. This unified, inclusive, one world religion stuff is a complete unscriptural pipe dream. The Temple in Jerusalem already stands ready for the abomination. The Dome of the Rock is where the man of sin will authenticate himself. The only way the holy spirit can help people understand anything is for them to understand a little bit about the proper methods of interpretation, put unbiased effort in your studies. and be willing to change your mind when the evidence is there to do so. The holy spirit enlightens you by blessing your efforts, he just doesn't send you a telepathic message of truth.

I hear you. Sorry. I need to chill out. I was actually more interested in expressing how I feel the same way as gemstone. My bad experiences with Church, esp. pastors, and my obsessed with himself Pentecostal cousin of a pastor has a lot to do with my bad perception of Christians, and so do the churches in my neighborhood. And I'm not going to put much time into explaining why!

Well I wish most people had your level of common sense, especially when it comes to Islam. Islam will never allow their religion to be unified with others. They'll never allow it. But my issue with this thread is that nearly everyone believes that the religion of the beast is going to be a unified, inclusive, global religion of peace! And that's just not true. The religion of the beast is ISLAM.

The pre-tribbers have changed the meaning of 'the mystery of Christ, mystery of the kingdom of God, mystery among the gentiles, mystery of the church....I lost track of the fabrications required to counter the fabrications of pre-trib.

Jewish trumpets are not eschatological trumpets! The ONLY trumpets that qualify to be sounded at any prophetic event like the rapture is the propheic trumpets mentioned in the book of Revelation. Anything else is fabrication and a perversion of Jesus' and Paul's words. I just makes no sense that the Lord would return at the sounding of some Jewish trumpet, a religion and people who deny the Christ anyway.

There is no resentment in this persons reply. I'm surprised you can't tell how this person feels without prodding at their 'resentment.' "I'm a social, outgoing person. I used to find it easier to make friends. I'm finding it harder to find loyal, loving, genuine friendships as I get older. This is making me want to pull away from others and become a hermit. I know God has called all of us to love others, and I do, but I want to love them from a distance. I see the ugliness in the world, and it makes my heart sad. I don't see how truly loving believers can treat people the way they sometimes do. I want to continue to love others, but I don't want to allow others to hurt me, or watch them hurt others. Some wisdom, Scriptures, and prayers would be most helpful, thanks!" __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Maybe Christians on the forum could use better words to express themselves. RESENTMENT... bitter indignation at having been treated unfairly. I feel the very same way this person does. I'm older and very tired of Christians PERIOD! READ what the person SAID! You don't need any more of an explanation! 1. I'm finding it harder to find loyal, loving, genuine friendships as I get older. 2. This is making me want to pull away from others and become a hermit. 3. I know God has called all of us to love others, and I do, but I want to love them from a distance. 4. I see the ugliness in the world, and it makes my heart sad 5. I don't see how truly loving believers can treat people the way they sometimes do. I want to continue to love others, but I don't want to allow others to hurt me, or watch them hurt others. I'm in the same situation. I've distanced myself from CHRISTIANS because they're NO GOOD! They do NOTHING for my walk with Christ. All they ever do is undermine it. They have NOTHING good to say about ME/people. They are even more difficult to become friends wih than unbelievers. I like being ALONE away from their self-righteous, holier than thou, "we don't make mistakes" attitude. I don't like being friends with Christians because they impose their convictions on everyone else and then condemn you for believing different. I have trouble loving Christians even from a distance. I've been crapped on so many times by PASTORS (which I use to be) that I'm about ready to dump the entire religion of Christianity with all the messed up people in it. I see ugliness in the world too. Much of it in the followers of Jesus Christ, and it makes me sad that I have to get away from such people to maintain my 'sobriety.' And most of all... When I read some of the wonderful, loving replies by people here I get sick to my stomach. On one reply they're so sweet and they talk about God's love and compassion Then on another, usually because their beliefs have been seriously challenged or opposed, they say all sorts of derogatory things about you and even condemn people. Christianity, It's just not what it use to be even 30-40 years ago.

There's that peace word I've been asking about. Yep. 1.5 billion followers, tiny. There's that peace word again. I keep wondering why everybody says the kingdom of the demonic duo is full of peace, yet these same Christians say their church and religion is part of the evils of the apostasy. There's just something wrong with that. Yep! THERE'S THAT PEACE AND UNITY WORD AGAIN. There's that 'world peace stuff again. I'm going to ask again. Where do we find this PEACE stuff in bible prophecy? I know just how pretty it would be to people, but it's just never going to happen! If you had it in you, you'd show me and the forum where all of that stuff is found in our bibles. I've been asking, NO replies yet! sure they are. You're injecting this interfaith stuff in everything. You can't get away from it and you logic is going right ou the window with it. I want to see you answer the questions I've been asking for days. WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS INTERFAITH UNITY STUFF IN THE BIBLE?

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The last trump is where the prophetic event of a gathering occurs. The last trump can only be the seventh Trump because both are related to in a series of prophetic events. It's crazy to say it's anything else. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ I know you could care less about hermeneutics, and so do many others. Many of you don't know the difference when an article IS or IS NOT used in Greek and Hebrew. In every verse where the last Trump of God is mentioned it is used with the article or preposition indication it's a specific trumpet. In Revelation 4:1, John used the words, "as it were " to describe a voice talking with him so loud it sounded like a trumpet. It's not a SPECIFIC eschatological trumpet. John was told in 1:19 to write what he perceives as seeing, and the voice talking with him was perceived 'as it were' a trumpet talking with him. I shouldn't have to explain the meaning of, "as it were." "....and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me." John's way of obeying his original command from God in Revelation 1:19 to write down how he perceives what he sees. In fact... For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: That verse is written like this in the interlinear... IN SOUND OF(voice)-chief-messenger(archangel) and IN TRUMPET OF-GOD Other verses use the article instead of the preoposition. Both indicate they come from God and nowhere else. The last trump Lamad, not a Jewish trumpet. The trump of God Lamad, not the trump of man!

You say nothing unique, but what's taking place in Iraq and the Arab world is serious. What's also serious is that Islam calls this time "the third jihad" or THE THIRD AND FINAL ROUND OF THE CRUSADES. I know what Islam's goals are and they align well with bible prophecy. It's a no brainer actually. I don't have the time to tell you right now everything I'd like because it's not simple. Nothing is simple in that part of the world to resolve right now. In June there wre 164 jihad attacks in 30 countries, 34 of the SUICIDE BLAST killing 1,176 people and injuring 1382. Since Sept. 11, Islamic terrorist have carried out more than31,229 Deadly Terror Attacks. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Suicide bombers, they're right here... Revelation 9:16-17 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. The word for breastplates is the word 'thorax,' and were held by straps that went over the shoulders or around the neck. "...and of jacinth," (dark red)... Jacinth: signifies "hyacinthine," perhaps primarily having the color of the hyacinth. Some regard its color as that of the martagon lily, a dusky red. According to Swete, the word 'jacinth' in Rev 9:17 is, "doubtless meant to describe the blue smoke of a sulphurous flame." "...and brimstone:...." sparks and explosion This is the only place the word 'brimstone' or Strong's #2306 is used in the NT. Strong's #2306 comes from 2303 and says, "in its original sense of "flashing." "...and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; (Babylonians) and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone." ...you say, "they are not themselves unified or organized enough to pull that off.......whereas the world's super rich and Rome are," Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. John was talking about the coming end-time anti-christ here...."Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come." And about anti-Christ of his time here... "Even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." These people who were "not of us," were those who denied Christ the way John decribes. The verse is not saying the end-time anti-christ comes from within the church. The apostles of that day were plagued with that stuff both within and outside of the Church.

It's difficult but there are some overlaps in the book that need to be observed. I say Mathew 24 and the book of Revelation is Chronological BUT... The beast John sees in chapter 13 rises up from the sea. This doesn't mean the beast rises chronologically in Ch. 17, only that it rose from the sea and that it's present on earth at that time. So yes, it is logical to assume the beast is rising in chapters 6-11, but I think we have to be careful how we overlap prophecies. Another thing. The beast of Revelation 17 likely IS NOT the same beast as Revelation 13.

Lamad, Do you see any difference in the GRAMMAR between these trumpets? After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Lets see if Lamad can figure it out. Too often people disregard the definition of simple 2-3 letter words like 'as if the all end BUT etc'...

You can bask in your pre-trib fantasy Lamad.

Though I do agree with what you've said, my only argument is that THAT has nothing to do with the religion of the beast.

You are still stuck on the English translation of the word 'apostasia.' The words 'falling away' are a really bad translation of the word. In Acts 21:21 it's translated 'forsake.' If you read what Baker's said, it's a revolt and rebellion. Speaking about ISIS and the revolution now taking place in the Arab World, Hasan A. Yahya, the Dean of Arab Writers in North America said, "This article calls for wider scope of protest and revolutions in the Arab countries, otherwise, these revolutions and protests are incomplete and misguided. In his opinion, the revolution may satisfy one country, it does not satisfy all Arabs who aspire for unity, one currency, one economy, and one flag that covers a land with no borders between." Now let me ask you. Does the part I highlighted sound familiar? The Arab Middle-East is currently in the prophesied apostasy. ISIS has created such instability and such a large political void perfect for the man of sin to enter. This is what he's waiting for! ISIS is the Leviathan.

I would like to confront the verse you've just quoted. At least you're a bit observant. On the surface, it would seem you are correct in assuming the man of sin would be a Christian because he, "sitteth in the temple of God." I use to think the same thing. A Jewish anti-Christ would be a good guess too. My guess???...This TEMPLE is the Dome of the Rock where Muhammad supposedly ascended to heaven from, and the only piece of ground on planet earth God calls his own. The word used for 'God' is the SAME word used for a false god or goddess. The word used for 'temple' is the same word that’s used for a heathen temple or shrine. I also noticed from the interlinear that the KJV translators also dropped the word ‘the’ in “temple of (the) God.” AND! The word God/god is used four times in verse 4. The interlinear shows GOD capitalized twice and twice it is not. Another major KJV blunder. One more interesting note: The Greek interlinear uses the word God in verse 4 twice and god twice. When the word god is NOT capitalized, it shows it like this...n_ Acc Sg m. (noun, accusative case, singular, masculine) That means when god isn't capitalized like in Verse 4, it is better interpreted like this… Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the heathen temple (Dome of the Rock) OF THE god (Allah), shewing himself that he is God. The word God… The word God in this verse is theos. The primary meaning of that word is of any god or goddess. It is also used to describe the one true God. The word Temple…. The word temple in 2 Thes. 2 is ‘naos’ Strong’s # 3485 and that word is the one used to imply a heathen temple. 1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, 2) any heathen temple or shrine. This word is also used in the book of Acts to describe the temple that the idol stood in. Please, don't fall for the line that the temple in 2 Thes. 2 is the church or you as a Christian. That can easily be proven wrong. There are times when the word is used literally, and times it's used figuratively. All indicators lead to the temple in 2 Thes. 2 as a literal SHRINE!

Why would an end-time man or kingdom have to have existed before Jesus?

Read the passage again and notice that from the word 'except' in verse 3c, to the end of verse 12, the church is not implied in any way. In fact the words "but we" in verse 13 prove that Christians (the church) is not part of the apostasy! The word 'but' is a conjunction that shows distinction and opposition to a previous statement. It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of. The distinction in this passage is between the followers of Christ as opposed to the man of sin and his followers. The church is not implied whatsoever. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3a Let no man deceive you by any means: 3b for that day shall not come, 3c except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Bakers dictionary of theology Bakers dictionary of theology, Apostasy A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15) In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy. In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin.

I can defend my agression. You people can't defend your doctrine and you don't like it. Many of you react bad too because they don't like it when their beliefs are challenged. You quote scripture that speaks of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience, yet I'm the one who was condemned for not believing in the Trinity by three people here. You people take condemning one another like it's nothing, when all along, it's much worse than anything I've said here. You quote scripture that speak of bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander, yet you people have no problem condemning others in the faith, calling the church a harlot, saying the Pope will unite the world's religions and basically blaming all of the end-time evils like those in 2 Thes. 2 to YOURSELVES. You are condemning your own brothers and sisters and your own religion...and you don't see how those scriptures apply to you! It's a serious thing to accuse the Church of something that really is pure evil. This is the Church and heretical followers of Jesus Christ... "The secret power of lawlessness; the lawless one; whom the Lord Jesus will destroy; counterfeit signs, miracles, and wonders; every sort of evil that deceives those who "are perishing"; who refuse to love the truth and so be saved; and delight in wickedness; and God sends them powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie!" I can defend myself and my beliefs. I want to see you guys show me your evidence.

And God listens to what Christians are taught on TV, radio, and the internet. I'm sorry if I come across abrasive. You will only know when it's all over. Why is it that Christians believe things when it's often simple scriptures and logic that says otherwise. Like "immediately after the tribulation," etc. Why is it Christians are bent on literally demonizing their own religion and their own brothers and sisters! If people can't show me WHERE the Christian Church is found in 2 Thes 2:3c-12 then you guys better take seriously what you're saying! Christians who call the harlot Rome or "the apostate Church" are traitors to Jesus Christ because I know the harlot is Islam and its jihadist sects, and I know the apostasy of 2 Thes. 2 is an end-time event has Islam written all over it. The Church isn't implied whatsoever.

I said, "You know nothing about me. You're just an internet personality...just like me! You have no idea where I've been. You have no idea of my devotion. You may have some idea that I'm a disgruntled Christian who is sick of other Christians condemning me AND VERY SICK OF CHRISTIANS WHO ATTRIBUTE ALL OF THE END-TIME EVILS TO CHRISTIANS AND THE CHURCH. I'M FLIPPING OVER YOUR MILLIONAIRE PRE=TRIB TABLES, AND YOUR CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN APOSTASY BALONY." You said, I have no anger hostility, or sesentment toward you, just that a million Christians demonize themselves by doing what you're doing, i.e. attributing all of the end-time evils of 2 Thes. 2 to believers and the church when not ONE of you can show me WHY you believe WHAT you believe. I have a stern attitude toward blasphemy and an outright perversion of God's Word. If you or anyone else can't show me where believers are found in the passage, maybe you should reconsider What you believe. But the words, "I was wrong" just doesn't seem to appear in a Christians vocabulary.

Regardless what you think of me, I wish you would just look at this logically enough to stop blaming themselves for this evil. It's NOT about me, it's about the results of my studies which results I accept and let change my mind. I use to believe what you do on it.

This isn't splitting hairs, it's the difference between black and white. It's the difference between the falling away and the evilsinthe passage being attributed to CHRISTIANS and the CHURCH. In other words, the passage is about the man of sin and his followers, but for some reason, most believers love put themselve and THEIR religion, their Christian's, and their church in the middle of this evil. They like to say this because they say they ARE NOT part of it because they are the TRUE church, they are true Christians. They say the ones mentioned in the apostasy of 2 Thes. 2 are the false church, the heretical church, the inclusive church of all the world's religions, that's how Christian build themselves up. I know what you're saying but what you describe ISN'T apostasy. There are different ways the early church dealt with false teachers and false prophets. False prophets were typically "among the people," they were NOT in the church. Many of them just followed Peter and Paul around trying to gain a following of their own by 'sheep stealing,' usually for MONEY. IF they were in the church, they were easily identifyable and thrown out. False teachers who were in the church and NOT preaching DAMNABLE heresy WERE ALLOWED TO STAY IN THE CHURCH, but people were admonished to avoid them. WHERE are we warned that false christ would come from WITHIN THE CHURCH? Especially in the end-times? I'm not sure? A false Christ can simply be an anointed one of another religion, or can also be one that claims he IS christ. Most people just disregard the fact that many in Islam are expecting jesus to return also. And Rome??? Rome is not Babylon. Babylon is not Rome. Rome...it's just NOT found in any verse or passage of bible prophecy. I keep asking people to show me where ROME is found in prophecy, but nobody ever shows me where! Just like he tempted Christ, the devil has been tempting the Church from day one. IF you want to use the word 'idol,' Christians have had their idols since day one. Jesus has parables about it. What happened in Babylon was a real APOSTASIA where people were forced into accepting "the national religion." But you're talking millenia ago. Today, I just can't believe in a global apostasy resulting in a national religion. Religion has become divisive as politics making it illogical to believe in a global government and religion. "People say the anti-christ is a global dictator coming in peacefully, but the history of the world is that when one country tries to take over another it causes a war. It's illogical to think one or two men could somehow unite the world politically and religiously." It's illogical to think a national religion is coming. The lie that all paths lead to God can be considered apostasy. , but in 2 Thes. 2, it's an END-TIME event. It's not something that began centuries ago and progressed up to today. It's the end-time event that brings on the man of sin. What makes you think "the secret power of lawlessness; the lawless one; whom the Lord Jesus will destroy; counterfeit signs, miracles, and wonders; every sort of evil that deceives those who "are perishing"; who refuse to love the truth and so be saved; and delight in wickedness; and God sends them powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie! " HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CHURCH OR CHRISTIANS! Why would God send His own Christians powerful delusion? This passage is talking about Muslims not Christians. To attribute this to the end-time church say's nothing good about the power of God's Holy Spirit whom He say's He will pour out in the last days! To teach that this is the kind of thing God's church will support in the last day's is blasphemy. Why would anybody want to convert to Christ knowing that the church teaches it goes bad, accepts the man of sin, becomes an end-time harlot, and produces the man of sin? It's self demonization. The only region and religion capable of fulfilling this is Islam. A one world government and one world religion??? It's time to reconsider what the prophecy experts have been teaching you. It is happening in ISIS and the Arab Middle East.

It's happening but NOT in the Church or within any Christian! Wonderful! Churches will lead the world right into Armageddon! That's really going to convert people to Christ! That's EXACTLY what all of you are doing! You fools attribute all the evils of 2 Thes. 2 to yourselves, Christians, and the Church! The Churches embrace what? Sodomy in the streets?