Mystic_Pizza

It seems that the biggest argument in the last few posts is whether or not there is a literal rapture that will happen before the tribulation period begins, or not. Many years ago, I used to believe that there would be a pre-trib rapture, taking us all out of harm's way before all of the really horrific things started to happen during the tribulation. I won't go into massive detail, but I started looking more closely at things and wondered why the apostles and prophets suffered so very much through the ages, and yet in the last days, Christians are going to have what I would consider to be a free pass, so to speak, to not have any suffering whatsoever, other than the usual earthly stuff we all suffer by just being human, and that we would all be taken out before the really awful 'tribulation' stuff happens. There are so many bible verses that can be construed as 'yes, there IS going to be a pre-trib rapture', and 'no, definitely NOT!', to the point that it's just all over the place, causing confusion, dissension, arguments, you name it. Not that anyone is interested, but I'll say it anyway, here's my take on it- if there IS a pre-trib rapture, we are lucky because we will escape the horrific things coming to the world after it happens. No need to worry because we won't be here when they start doing away with those who believe (after the rapture) in Jesus, and must 'seal their testimony with their blood'- no worries, because...we won't be here, etc. Okay. So. Here is my issue with things happening like that: if it does, Amen! I'm most definitely all for that, but...If it doesn't, and the majority of Christians are thinking that it does? What then? Christians expecting to be in heaven before that all happens are going to be in major shock, and woefully unprepared. And that is something that is really frightening to think about. I'm not saying that it will play out that way, we all know that it is going to happen one way, or the other- either there will be a pre-trib rapture, or there won't be, and it will all happen later on sometime during the tribulation, possibly after- my own thoughts eventually came to be that Christians would be taken out before 'God's Wrath', but honestly? I don't have a clue- like I said, there are SO many ways to interpret scripture and have it point to a pre-trib, or mid-trib, or post-trib- it's utterly confusing. I just know that the one thing that scares me the most out of those scenarios, is thinking, as I did almost my entire life, that there would be a pre-trib rapture, that we wouldn't have to go through all of the horrors of the tribulation, and then discovering that we WOULD be going through some or possibly all of it, and being completely unprepared for it, spiritually- relaxed, and ....asleep, pretty much. In closing...being 'right' about the when of this isn't the main thing- being spiritually ready is the most important thing- because if we are spiritually ready, prayerful, searching God and His word, it won't matter when it happens. I know, I know- you guys think I'm a total Debbie Downer, lol. That's ok

That is an interesting thing- most, at least I'm speaking about myself, are so caught up in what will be happening next on the prophetic calendar, that the thousand years are almost hidden behind the curtain and not much is said about it- I guess I just want to be ready for whatever is coming down the pike next, lol.

I think there are studies and aids online where you can find the ancient names of countries, to give a better idea of who Gog and Magog are, etc.- and the maps that go along with them (as opposed to where these lands are considered to be today, and what they are considered to be). Besides Gog, the two I seem to recall being involved were Turkey and Libya, but I can't recall which others- either way, I think that the future invading force would be frightening and formidable-

Agreed- and the thought is sobering and very frightening, when we watch what goes on in the world and seeing these sorts of things being brought about-

It seems to make more sense when in Ezekiel God says He will put 'hooks' in Gog's jaw and drag him out, basically. It sort of gives the impression that Gog isn't much wanting to do it, but for whatever reason, has no choice but to go and do this thing. Just a thought.

As an aside...in case anyone is wondering why my posts are suddenly showing up all over the place lately - not that anyone is wondering, but just in case, lol - it's because I'm trying to hit the "100 posts" mark so I can post in that other forum, where you aren't allowed unless you have at least 100 posts. This post is to add to what I have so far...I figure after having been here for a year now, I need to step up my game-LOL

I agree, the majority of the time I'm talking about things that I recall are in the bible- but it's true, there are things that there are explanations for, and then there are things that have no explanation whatsoever- and leave us all just sort of...gaping, lol. There's a big part of me that thinks we should take these things, perhaps, at face value and see if what they are describing turns out to be just what it seems to be--- in another forum I was talking about how Israel became a nation in a day due to the Balfour Declaration (I think that was it), and how it paralleled with Isaiah 66:8 "Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." This is literally what happened- the nation was born in a day-and this is what Isaiah said would happen- It's difficult sometimes to think of things in the future that are prophesied and confusing, like the whole chimera business, could possibly be literal beings. I guess it will be a 'wait and see' bit of business, kind of freaky when you think about it, lol.

My own thoughts on the removal of troops is that Ezekiel 38 speaks of a very large coalition of nations going against Israel- with Gog pretty well being the leader- my understanding has always been that Gog was a nation/country to the 'uttermost North' of Israel, and there seems to be only one nation geographically positioned there. I read years ago about the 'hooks put into the jaw' and being pretty well dragged out, almost by force it would seem, to mean that there were other nations that had some sort of 'pact', as it were, with them and when time came to pay the piper, so to speak, Gog pretty well had to go along with it- that's not to say it wasn't the plan, but still- At any rate....I'm thinking that the troop removal in light of the size of what is prophesied to go against Israel in that future battle is ...minimal, at best- in other words, it would be no match for what's to come up against it. I probably have a really simplistic view of the way things could possibly play out, but I always think of how the State of Israel became a nation within a day, with the Balfour Declaration, and this bible verse: Just my two cents, lol.

lol, no, I said that some people say there are many ways to heaven, I said I do NOT believe that, I only believe in one way to heaven, through Jesus, and that there is only one heaven-

Just as an afterthought, here....I don't know how many on here have ever read anything by Johanna Michaelson, she wrote a book called, "The Beautiful Side of Evil"...she was the sister-in-law at that time of Hal Lindsey (the Late Great Planet Earth guy, for those ancient ones like me who remember the book, lol)- she was involved in some really creepy business, with channeling and working for a 'healer', the ones who did surgery-type things while in a trance, and the person they were operating on was awake but supposedly felt no pain, etc.- it was in another country she was working although I can't recall which one, Mexico perhaps, I don't remember. Anyway, she felt she was truly doing "The Lord's work", as a Christian...but then slowly began to realize that it wasn't, and I always felt it was because God knew her heart, and knew she thought she was doing right and good- but because it was, as Royff said somewhere on here 'doctrines of devils', the Lord, knowing her heart...nudged her away from it, and she later exposed it and wrote about what had happened to her. It was an interesting book. Ok, I'm done now, lol.

Your mentioning of the different denominations, Royff, I don't know a lot about any of them except maybe Catholicism- and I don't know a whole lot about that one either, except that I know a lot of people, personally, who are Catholic- and the whole setup (of Catholicism) has always disturbed me- I won't even go into the 'why', it just always has. Anyway... I was raised in a particular denomination, and attended through early adulthood (20s), then that particular church sort of split off, and part of it went into a new, non-denominational church of their own. I had a issues with a couple of things a person had to 'believe' in order to be a 'member' or the original church I attended, and that was the reason for veering off into the non-denominational one- it wasn't that I didn't 'believe' in a particular thing anymore, it was more that I...wondered about it, and wasn't sure in my own heart about it- not that anyone is wondering what the 'thing' was, but just in case, it had to do with the timing of the rapture. In the church I attended you had to believe it would happen at a certain time- and I just had questions about that, lol- ANYway...(I veer off a lot, haha)..... I enjoy non-denominational churches that preach the bible, from the bible- and don't go off into all of the various 'interpretations' and insist that you believe this, that, or the other or you are basically lost- now just so there are no misunderstandings, I'm not saying that I don't believe in 'rules', but I think everyone gets what I mean here- I think at the end of the day, as I stated way back somewhere in here, God knows the heart of each of us- the deep-down thoughts, motivations, where we stand on salvation, etc.- and I believe that there are true Christians in all sorts of places where people wouldn't expect them to be- by that, I mean some denominations where some would say, "Omg! You CAN'T believe THAT and STILL be a CHRISTIAN!!!!"- I admit, I've been guilty of thinking that way myself sometimes, lol- I believe that since God works in our lives once we give ourselves over to Him, to salvation, all of the things I've mentioned earlier...that if there is error, say....in a denomination a person is in where there truly is wrong, dangerous teaching, God will 'nudge', as it were- if we are walking according to what Romans 8 is telling us- I know there are some who will say, "but there are all kinds of people caught up in false teaching, thinking they are doing the right thing, etc., etc,.!!!"- and again, I go back to the thought that God knows the innermost heart of each and every one of us...and He is well able to nudge and lead someone in the right direction.

I think you might be talking about something I said earlier, but you took it way out of context, here- this is what I meant when I posted what I posted in here: sin is sin is sin. Period. But if someone thinks that it is a sin to go to church on Sunday as opposed to Saturday, for that person, it is a sin- because their 'tender conscience' tells them it is. This does not mean that it is a sin for everyone, because I'm sure God can be praised on Sunday, Saturday, and any other day of the week - but to the man or woman who believes it to be a sin, it is sin, for them. This has nothing to do with actual sinful behavior such as you mentioned. I never said anything about this justifying true, sinful behavior such as you stated. Freedom in forgiveness doesn't mean freedom to sin. It means that we are free of the condemnation that awaited us before we turned to Jesus, admitted our sins and sinful nature, and accepted the free gift of salvation that He offered. It means we have a Mediator, Jesus, to go before the Father- and because He became sin for us, and took God's wrath in our place, and because of our acceptance, this is truly all we need. God leads us in the directions He wants us to go, if we walk with Him and want to follow. Romans 8: 1-5 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. and 26-30: In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Diaste, when you say 'stepping right off the cliff' up there, I'm not comparing any of us here to any prophets in the sense that any of us are claiming to be- so don't anyone say that's what I'm doing, lol - that's my disclaimer, all- haha- ANYway....that being said.... I would imagine John on Patmos, and Daniel, just as examples- with some of the things they saw in their visions were nervous at the thought of telling others what they had seen, for fear of being percieved as...off? I don't know. Either way, what they saw was NOT normal, everyday-type things- massive sea creatures with bodies and heads of different animals don't come up out of the ocean, normally- a valley full of human bones does NOT come together and stand as a great army of skeletons. These were things that were difficult to understand, but they stood in prophetic history as something that would happen, but maybe weren't easy to understand at that time- it was like Gabriel (I think it was Gabriel) telling Daniel to 'shut up the book until the final days in history when knowledge would increase, etc' - I want to look at these things with a...sound, prayerful mind, being careful not to get caught up in the...'shock value' of any of it, because there is something here in these things that we wonder about- Either that, or I just took a major nosedive off the cliff with ya, hahaha!

Retrobyter, I was trying to put your quote out here the way it should be, but my computer is not being agreeable this morning, lol- so I will just do the old cut & paste! I agree- there are things in the OT that I have always had a difficult time 'wrapping my mind around', as it were- particularly the giants spoken of, and what the bible says about the circumstances of their conception, that they were the product of sexual relation between human women and fallen angels- and in Sodom & Gomorah (sp) with the men of the city having 'relations' with ....fallen angels? Or when they wanted Lot to send out the angels sent to him to warn him out of the city so that they 'may know them'. Or those in OT days who lived to be several hundred years old- these are all an example of things that are most definitely difficult to 'wrap our minds around', it's very difficult not to sort of look at it and say, '....noooo, can't be...'. There is a definite part of me that thinks because I'm human, with the limited mind of a human being who is not accustomed to interacting or being completely knowledgeable about things going on in the spirit world- and I think we all agree that there is most definitely a spirit world, where things go on that affect what goes on here, with all of us, we just can't see it - anyway, I see it in a way as sort of being like the way the moon interacts with the ocean and causes the tide to go in and out- funny as it sounds, I was utterly amazed when I heard that for the first time (I know, I know, lol), and I will never claim to understand it- but just because I don't understand the literal workings of it doesn't mean I don't believe it can be so, lol. The difference with that and the 'chimeras', etc. that are being talked about, is I see the tide every time I look at the ocean, and I know what's causing it. With the other business here, I've never seen it in my life- but I've read about it, I've heard about it- I agree with Diaste in explanation of the things being described in Revelation- understandable that John may have been describing something he was seeing with what he knew back in his day- but even in John's day they had carts, chariots, wheels on things to the point that if he were looking at something similar, such as a vehicle of some sort (from our day), he could at least recognize enough to say it was similar to a cart with wheels, etc. that moved a lot faster, lol. In all honesty, I would never consider myself to be someone with 'unbridled imagination'...in fact, I go in the opposite direction, if anything- the last thing I want on this or any other forum or anything I read about future biblical prophecy, are things that become...silly, and we all know they are becoming silly, you know? Chimeras, I don't think we can honestly discount the idea completely- when you see the 'gods' in Egypt, and those types of areas, you have to wonder where they came up with some of the ideas for things such as that- maybe not fully half-animal/half-human....but we have to remember that in the OT, there is mention of men who were 'giants in those days', because they were half-human/half-angelic, due to the nature of their conception- I always wondered in a sense why the earth was destroyed in the flood, and after reading quite a bit about it, the thought that the earth was being destroyed due to this 'polluted' bloodline of mankind makes perfect sense. Of course, not knowing what is really going on in the spirit world, I can only surmise what may or may not be the cause of any given thing- but it would seem that Satan would know that a polluted human bloodline couldn't produce Jesus the Messiah. Ok, I've gone wayyy of track here, lol- sorry all

Wrath of the Titans...isn't that the one with Harry Hamlin? lol...I think I may have already seen that a long time ago, and even the Adventures of Sinbad-I tell you, I am OLD school, lol!

I guess it's just me, but these days I find myself more wanting to find out what is going to happen next in bible prophecy, and what we should be looking for as opposed to arguing...semantics, I guess it would be? Dunno, would honestly have to look the word up, haha- My husband and I were watching a mini series on Henry VIII last night, and we were talking about how Cromwell, or maybe Thomas More ...or could have possibly EVEN been Bishop Gardner, boy he was a mean one, lol- Anyhoo....how they were torturing and putting to death those who would not agree that at Communion, the bread and wine were the actual. literal blood and body of Christ- the actual, real thing- as opposed to symbolism representing the body and blood of Christ. They actually tortured and put to death those who would not agree with them, we're talking about...well, gosh- it just seems almost breathtaking when you think about it- death and torture, because you believe one thing over the other, when the actual meaning of it is still the same thing? Unbelievable. I just won't get caught up in it, nosiree, huh uh- lol.

I would have to go back and look at who is saying what, and God bless you all but I'm just not going to do that right now, lol- I think that someone up there said God looks upon the heart, like He did with David, and I truly believe that- we can go along following every rule to the absolute letter, and become incensed when every single thing isn't followed the way we believe it should be- I think of Paul (I think) stating that even though certain things weren't a sin to some people, for others who were observing them who had, as he put it, a 'tender conscience', they saw certain things as sin even though they weren't a sin, but since they believed it to be a sin, for them, it was. I think some of what's happening on this page is sort of like that, a little bit. There is true freedom in Christ Jesus- not freedom to sin, never that- but, in my opinion, once we accept the gift of salvation that He offered us through His death on the cross for our sins, for we are sinners- and His resurrection, He knows our innermost heart in a way even we ourselves can never know- and this is what He looks upon. Thank you, Jesus

lol...and this would only translate to someone who theorizes that there could possibly be a conspiracy afoot! And what is a 'conspiracy', (without rushing off to dictionary dot com here, I'm just too lazy this morning, haha) but the idea that there are those who are conspiring. But instead, when people hear that term, they get all sorts of freaky and think it's some sort of tin-foil hat type situation, when it isn't. I have a tendency to go with that saying, "If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and looks like a duck...chances are very good that it IS a duck..". Just plain old common sense, 'look at the writing on the wall', put to good use, you know? As for the UFO business, your take could very well be a big portion of it- I always sort of wondered if it weren't a little bit of 'other-worldly' (aka, the demonic) coming through here and there in whatever capacity God allows them to come through at this point in history, in order to somewhat desensitize people to 'other things' like that coming through and being seen at some point as more the rule rather than the exception- just no telling- I think of poor Elon Musk and his ideas about AI, how he sees it as opening a Pandora's box and letting 'things' in, or whatever the case may be- and there is that almost genius of a guy, and because of remarks like that people see him as the 'tin foil hat' type. And yet....some of the crazy business people believe in an every day basis don't qualify them for it, lol-go figure!

Interesting thoughts- I think it just reinforces the idea that technological advances today are going to play a huge part and have a massive impact on the world the antichrist will rule over- terrifying as the whole idea is, and terrifying as it is to...try and imagine, with what we have, what could possibly be coming- it's still amazing to try and discover, and actually have pieces like a very intricate puzzle fitting together here and there.

So after thumbing through the forum pages, I'm guessing the talk is about 'who is' the Whore of Babylon. I read in here somewhere that the Whore of Babylon and Babylon the Great (as it refers to the city itself) are one and the same..? Some say the whore is Jerusalem, some say it is Rome, or that Babylon is Rome or Jerusalem...very confusing, for sure. Being no scholar, I give lowly (and believe me, they really are, lol) opinions of what I think- and that would be without hours spent studying but only at face value...I'm thinking that the Whore of Babylon and Babylon the Great aren't one and the same, but that the whore is the whore OF Babylon as opposed to Babylon itself. The syntax/verbiage/whatever itself of those two phrases wouldn't stand up in a court of law as the same thing, I would bet. So...just given that thought, it would seem that the whore of Babylon is a city/place that is under pretty much command/allegiance/again, whatever, lol, to whatever or WHEREever Babylon the Great is. In Revelation 18, this part: 9“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’ 11“The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves. 14“They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! 17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’ 20“Rejoice over her, you heavens! Rejoice, you people of God! Rejoice, apostles and prophets! For God has judged her with the judgment she imposed on you.” Maybe it's just me, and that could be a very real possibility, lol...but it would seem that although Jerusalem is a wonderful, spiritual city that is the center of so very much going on in the world, and where in the end times all eyes will most definitely be on Jerusalem, as the pinnacle of all that will take place...the type of 'riches and wealth' and the other things it talks about in this particular verse seem to describe a much, much larger financial/rich center of commerce, don't you think? Perhaps Babylon the Great is a different place, and the Whore of Babylon is one that...I don't know, trails behind Babylon the Great? Just guessing here. Something to ponder, at any rate.

Ok, so having opened that can of chimera worms, lol....any good books/videos/youtube stuff/websites on the subject? Legit, bible-based stuff, of course- goes without saying, lol.

Not sure how I did that quote business or how to undo it, but you all get my point, lol

I've actually been reading some things on chimeras, etc.- and some interesting thought on the antichrist and recombinant (sp? Sorryyyy) DNA-true, it's mind-boggling- in the sense that it's just so....hard to imagine things like this actually being true, but again, when reading the OT and seeing the sorts of things - and beings - that were going on at that time (reason for the Flood as an example), it stretches the mind a bit and it's no easy feat to wrap our minds around, for sure- but when we stop and think of the things that are going on around us that we cannot see, the beings who exist, etc. around us all of the time that we are unable to see with human eyes- it makes you realize that the things we have difficulty believing are due to our own limited human understanding.

True. In the OT, I believe anyone speaking a prophecy they claimed was from God or claiming to be a prophet of God had to be 100% right, 100% of the time- and the penalty for not being so was death. Seems that would have been enough to make someone think twice before coming up with a 'prophecy' off the top of their head, lol.