JoeCanada

Thanks for the dialogue... You say..... "the white horse is a kingly symbol" So... what about the rider on a white horse in Rev 6?.... Is it also a 'kingly symbol' for the one who comes to conquer? What about the angels in Rev 19 who follow Jesus, also on 'white horses'? Are these "kingly angels"? You also say...." the clouds are God's chariot? That is a metaphor that blends the "clouds" in Matthew with the horse metaphor in Revelation." Not so sure about this. The 'clouds' are also a metaphor for 'horses'? Are clouds only a metaphor for 'white horses'?.... What about other colored horses? Throughout Scripture, both Old and New Testament, Jesus is pictured as the 'great cloud rider'. He ascended in a cloud and He will come back riding a cloud.... unless you think that the cloud is a metaphor for a horse..... kinda confusing don't you think? I'm not trying to be difficult. It just seems that when a passage or passages of Scripture seem to contradict a persons belief or their 'interpretation'.... then it's written off as "well, it's a metaphor....or simile.... or a figure of speech.... or it's a code word.... or an analogy.... its a euphemism.... or its symbolic.... yada yada yada! It's anything but what is written. I realize that much of Revelation is symbolic, but a person has to be reasonable piecing it all together. Otherwise, we end up with a complete cluster (....) of symbols and metaphors and code words and figures of speech etc, etc.

What?..... wait..... What???? We could pay for our sins through our own blood? Brother..... you really need to explain what you are saying with this statement. I won't comment on it until you do.

Most "Jews" DO believe in God.... they just don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah First you say that a Jew is someone from Judea..... Then you say that "Jews and Gentiles" ...... seems like you are equating all Israelis as "Jews" This is your OPINION...... not scripturally based at all! Again.... your OPINION!.......... not scripturally based at all! Jewish ethnicity, religion, and community are highly interrelated, as Judaism is an ethnic religion

When the seventh angel sounded the trumpet.... "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ and He will reign forever and ever.... You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign"........... Rev 11:15-17 The seventh trumpet is the inauguration of Jesus. It is when the transfer of ownership of the title deed to the earth from Satan to Jesus has officially been made. And it is at the seventh trumpet that Jesus has "begun to reign" It is not until at the end of the bowl judgments that Jesus and His heavenly armies wage war against the beast and those who follow him..... Rev 19:11-21 So, His rule comes before He attacks Satan and those whom he has gathered to fight the King of Kings.

Because I see the first 6 seals as 'judgments' against the Jews and Christians predominately. When the 7th seal is opened it begins the Day of the Lord, God's Wrath. Just because you make a point doesn't make that point legit. The trumpets and vials are God's Wrath. The seals are Satan's wrath. God does not share the stage with Satan. God alone will be glorified in that day.

Second 'appearance of Jesus'..... Rev 6:16.... The earth dwellers don't just imagine Jesus is ready to bring wrath upon them, they obviously see Him in the heaven when the sky is split apart.... Third 'appearance of Jesus' .... "Who is this who comes from Edom"...Isa 63:1... Jesus marching toward Jerusalem from Edom, gathering His people along the way who were dispersed when told to flee at the AofD Fourth 'appearance of Jesus'.... "because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign".... Rev 11:17.... At the inauguration of Jesus at the 7th trumpet, Jesus has been given the kingdom of the earth and is reigning in Israel..... also Ezek 39:7 Fifth 'appearance of Jesus' .... "And I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse...' ...Rev 19:11>....Jesus leads the armies of heaven into battle. There could be another one as well. In Rev 14:14, Jesus again on a cloud, reaping the earth with a sickle..... and another angel also with a sickle reaping the clusters from the vine of the earth for the winepress of the wrath of God. This one, if the earth dwellers actually see Him, would come between the second and third 'appearance of Jesus'. (Jesus does not use a sickle when He/the angels gather His elect at the 6th seal) So in essence, there could be 6 appearances of Jesus. The 'second coming' is a multi-faceted event.... not just a one time 'appearance.' Like I have said before.... It will be the GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH

Verses 4-8 are talking about the 'birth pangs'..... like Jesus said in verse 8 of Matt 24. What are these 'birth pangs'? I can't see them as being equated with the disciples lives and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Sure, there may have been a 'false Christ'. But did they hear of 'wars and rumors of wars'?.... Maybe, but in the singular 'war' and 'rumor'. Did they see or hear of 'nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom' rising? Did they experience 'famines (plural) and earthquakes (plural)? I would say that for the most part, the answer is NO. So what was Jesus referring to? Are they the times just before the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age? Probably and most likely. Maybe .... Jesus was referring to the Church which was about to be born. The Church would then be like a baby, toddler, teenager, young adult, mature adult.... it would develop and mature..... and then go thru the birth pangs.... just before the return of the Messiah.

Using that same logic..... Since the 7 vials emit from the 7th trumpet.... and.... The 7 trumpets emit from the 7th seal..... then the 7 seals IN and OF THEMSELVES contain the full Wrath of God. This is, after all, your logic....Right?

So.... Rev man.... I know from past conversations that you equate the armies of heaven returning with Christ as the church. Are you now really saying that the armies that follow Jesus out of heaven on horses jump off their horses and fly in the air and answer the call of the angel to assemble for dinner? (I slap myself on the forehead and exclaim "good grief") The Lamb's wedding feast does NOT entail feasting on the flesh of horses or people. We are not cannibals. We are not zombies. We do not have a feast on the battlefield! The Lamb's wedding feast will take place on His Holy Mountain where He will prepare a feast of aged wine and choice meat..... a lavish banquet. Isa 25:6 The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine. There is a huge difference between the Marriage banquet of the Lamb...... And the Great Supper of God.

Revelation 12 gives us a pretty good overview of the tribulation conflict. Satan and his followers are kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth: "Woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.... 12:12 "And when the dragon saw that he was thrown to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.... (Israel) 12:13 "The dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Christ".... (both Jews, who keep the commandments, and Christians, who hold to the testimony of Christ).... 12:17 So we see that Satan's great wrath will be geared towards the nation of Israel first and then the Church, Christians. God lets Satan have his way against Jews and Christians. Satan is not concerned with other earth dwellers and other religions. He is after the cream of the crop, first and foremost. If he can annihilate the Jews and the Christians, then the earth will be his. But God always has a remnant. Why does God allow this? To weed out true believers from fake believers. That's why we see martyrs at the 5th seal, and many more to come. I agree that God's wrath is the trumpet and bowl judgments. God will not share His glory with another, especially Satan. That's why Isaiah writes "The Lord alone will be exalted in that day"... Isa 2:11 ....... The trumpet and bowl judgments are the "Day of the Lord" Satan has his day....the tribulation............... God has His day....The Day of the Lord" The seals are Satan's wrath. You have the beginning of "birth pangs" Then...... "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name".... Matt 24:9 AFTER tribulation is the Day of the Lord, the day of His Wrath....(not a literal 24 hr day) Huge difference between tribulation 'thlipsis' and wrath 'orge'.

I agree that the sword coming out of His mouth is symbolic. But Jesus on a white horse I believe is literal. Just as in Jesus's first advent, He entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey. The donkey has been historically linked with Redemption. Was it a real donkey? Of course it was. Rev 19 has Jesus, on a white horse, leading the armies of heaven to battle. I cannot see Him blowing the battle trumpet and leading a charge..... while running.

Right.... and the 7 bowls are not judgment??? 7 = divine completion.... 7 bowls??? 7 = divine completion.... 7 seals??? According to your theory.... only the 7 trumps are divine completion???

You da man.... Rev man!

Obvious to you, maybe If you don't want to believe that it's the second coming, well, that's ok. The Greek term is "Parousia" which is a coming or presence, but I don't really need to tell you this. Whether its actually a "second" coming (presence) or a third, forth or whatever, it will be His established presence..... forever. If the phrase " second coming" causes confusion to 'some' people, perhaps its because they're not all too familiar with scripture. I don't know....... I'm just guessing. I think the term "second coming of Jesus" is a rather universally recognized and accepted term/phrase. The rapture is secondary to the resurrection. The resurrection happens first, and then the rapture..... 1 Thes 4:15 I believe Matthew 24:29-31 is the same as Paul's teaching in 1 Thes 4:15-17....... We, as students of the bible, have to look at the whole council of God, all the relevant scriptures.... not just a few cherry picked ones. There are many more than Matt 24 and 1 Thes.... but I'm sure you know them. So, yes, I believe that Scripture teaches that the "parousia" is equated with the resurrection and then the rapture

what are you meaning by this?

If "horse" (ippos in Greek) equals power, as you have written, then the angel who calls out to the birds of the air to assemble for the great supper of God, that you may eat the flesh of "horses".... 'ippos'.... same word as Jesus' horse...so the birds are going to eat 'power' ??? The angel is quite clear in saying "eat the flesh of horses".... as well as the flesh of kings and commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of the riders on the horses (and the horses), and the flesh of all men both free men and slaves, and small and great.........Rev 19:17-19 The "birds" that the angel gathers is not symbolic of anything. It's a bird, a fowl, a carrion bird. It eats literal flesh.

Well..... I agree with part of this reply. "That Rev 19 is Jesus return to earth" That I agree with, as scripture declares.

I agree that they disagree. :) Many, if not most scholars and bible expositors, students etc think that Rev 19 is indeed the second coming. But scripture disagrees with them. That's the reason I posted this. If a person takes in the whole council of God and not just a few cherry-picked verses, then they will see that scripture does indeed declare that Jesus does come well before Rev 19. His appearance and coming in the clouds at the sixth seal is what then? It's His return, His second coming, in the clouds as the two men in Acts 1:11 testify....." This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." How did He go into heaven?..... In a cloud. How is He coming back ..... He's the cloud rider, throughout scripture. He's coming back in a cloud. In Rev 19..... heaven is opened up. The earth dwellers see Jesus on a horse and an army of angels following Him. No clouds. Thanks for your input.

Jesus comes back at the end of the sixth seal, which I believe from past conversations that, you equate this with the seventh trumpet.(Please correct me if I'm wrong) Knowing all the destruction and open demonic activity that's going on, on the earth and the peoples of the earth, during the seven trumpets, how can a person believe scripture that says the people will be oblivious to what's going on.... that they will be marrying and building and planting and eating and drinking...... all normal everyday activities..........amidst massive earthquakes, tsunami's, fire and brimstone, 100 pound hail stones, being tortured by demonic locusts for 5 months.... billions of people being killed...... etc etc......... etc. It makes no sense.

I don't believe I used any scripture that says "second coming" There are numerous places in scripture that say that Jesus is coming again..... or do you not believe that? Acts 1:11...... "Men of Galillee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven" "Will come"..... Jesus came once and was crucified.... so He will come again...... or second coming. 1 Thes 3:13...... " so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints" "at the coming"..... second coming obviously

Hi Charlie, It could be: Jesus has left the building, so to speak, at the end of the sixth seal. When the seventh is open, heaven is awaiting the arrival of the Lord Jesus and the great multitude which no one could count (Rev 7:9). These are the resurrection and raptured of all who have put their faith in Jesus, all the way back to Adam. "There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God"....... Ps 65:1 The silence is before God the Father..... and praise in Zion as they see the Lord Jesus. Or: The seventh seal is broken and Jesus reads the judgments that are going to be poured out on the earth dwellers.

Jesus coming on a white horse in Revelation 19 is not the second coming. Jesus coming on the clouds in Matthew 24 is the second coming - and Revelation 19's Jesus coming on a white horse is something else. I can hear most of you say "What?....has Joe Canada lost his marbles?"....... Christians have built their entire eschatological theory on the assumption that the two comings in Matt 24 and Rev 19 are the same event. The pre-trib and post-trib rapture are both built on this assumption. The Rev 19 Second Coming being the same event as Jesus' coming on the clouds in Matt 24 is probably one of the greatest assumptions in the bible. As Scripture will show, these two events have nothing in common. Scripture will interpret Scripture by using shared words or shared events between two passages to show that the two things are the same. There are no shared words or symbols between the events in Matt 24 and Rev 19. The second coming IS the FIRST time that Jesus returns in great glory and power - He can only do that ONE time. But..... He can return more than once. It's the difference between a return and a coming. Okay.... let's look at some scriptures: In Jesus's explanation of the end times in Matthew 24, after the great tribulation, our Lord descends from heaven coming on the clouds, with power and great glory....the shekinah glory of God. In Revelation 19, at the end of Revelation, Jesus descends from heaven riding a white horse, accompanied by heavens armies. Where is the horse in Matt 24? There is no horse to be seen. In Matt 26 we read " Thereafter, you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power and coming on the clouds of heaven. This shows Jesus initially comes seated on a throne, next to the invisible Father, and that everyone will see this. But..... NO horse. If Jesus left heaven on a horse, how did he end up on a throne. In Rev 6:16.... "Hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb".... Again, Jesus is seated on a throne when the whole world sees Him and the unrighteous ask to hide. Another view: ...... "I looked and behold, a white cloud and sitting on the cloud was one like the Son of Man.... Rev 14:14 And another :...... "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne...... Matt 25:31 So..... where's the horse and the armies? Did Jesus do some fancy cowboy moves and jump off His horse and land on His throne? Not likely..... there is one coming - Jesus on a throne Matt 24..................... and another return - Jesus on a horse Rev 19. The Seal Trumpet and Bowl judgments have 21 events between them, each one having 7.... 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls. The disciples asked Jesus in Matt 24:5-14 what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. Jesus then proceeded to mention six signs or events prior to His coming..... false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes, tribulation, apostasy and preaching of the gospel to the whole world..... Yet, Jesus didn't mention even one of the judgments in the trumpet and bowls, which are unquestionably signs of incredible severity - burning of 1/3 of the earth population by fire and brimstone, stinging of unbelievers by demon locusts, etc. There can only be one explanation why they aren't mentioned by Jesus. These judgments come after His glorious coming. To say otherwise is an enormous contradiction. Jesus equates the Wrath of God, which follows the great tribulation, with Noah's flood in the form of an analogy..... Matt 24:37-39 Jesus says that in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark and they were unaware until the flood came (wrath of God) and swept them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man. Jesus tells us the unrighteous will be living normal lives right up to the coming of Jesus - eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and in Luke 17, Jesus adds buying and selling, planting and building - a full summation of normal living right up until the day of Jesus' coming. Do you really think that normal living will be taking place during the Trumpet and Bowl judgments, when 1/3 of the earth is burned with fire and brimstone - demonic locusts stinging for 5 months and people wanting to die but can't - earthquakes levelling cities and mountains, moving islands - 100 pound hailstones crushing any and every thing - boils and sores on people - oceans and fresh water all poisoned? Jesus' garments are stained in Rev 19 - they are dipped in blood before He mounts a white horse and leaves heaven. This happens, as Isaiah 63:1-4 describes, where He pours out His wrath on Edom, and stains His garments with the blood of the unrighteous, treading the winepress of God Almighty. This means that He was on the earth prior to Rev 19. Jesus says He treads this by himself, there was no-one with Him, yet in Rev 19 He comes with the armies from heaven. Jesus' primary purpose in Matthew 24 is the gathering of the saints - this is a main theme in the bible. Both the old and new testament speak of it. And yet in Rev 19, we find the main theme is Jesus returning with His armies to wipe out the antichrist and his hordes. There is no mention of any gathering of the saints. The darkening of the sun moon and stars takes place after the 6th seal. This major event is not seen in Rev 19. What is seen at the 6th seal is the sun darkened, the moon is darkened to blood, the stars fall, the powers of the heavens are shaken as the sky is rolled like a scroll, a great and mighty earthquake, the tribes of the earth mourn and hide in caves ------------------------------ THEN-------------------------- Jesus appears, breaks the blackest darkness by His Shekinah Glory, blazing in light, coming on the clouds, seated on a throne..... and then: "And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet..... and they will gather together His elect, from the four winds.... from one end of the sky to the other" The Parousia is the coming of our Glorious Savior. It is the one and only Parousia. It is referred to this way 18 times in Scripture and yet, Rev 19 does not use this term. One more point: Satan, the beast and the false prophet know when Jesus is coming in Rev 19. In Rev 16:14-16 we see these three send out demonic spirits to gather the kings of the earth to fight Jesus in the battle of Armageddon. They know Jesus is returning for the final showdown... to fight him. Yet.... in Math 24 we are told that no-one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' coming..... so Rev 19 can't be that coming. If the two events were the same.... Matt 24 and Rev 19.... there would be similar symbols. But there is nothing about the two accounts that are similar. They are completely and utterly different. Jesus tells us when He is coming back. He tells us in His own words in Matthew 24:29-31. Read it!

I should have been more specific. Can you provide any supporting scripture for this...."as a matter of fact the 6th Seal is merely a "Prophetic Utterance" only.

supporting scripture please

Rev man.... thanks for your response. Once again we are going to butt heads. Now, with all due respect..... I find myself in total disagreement with pretty much everything you have shared. As you have many, many times declared.... "I have been called to prophecy.... I now more than anyone else about Revelation, and prophecy"..... Please correct me if I am wrong..... and that you didn't say those things. Because you are pre-trib.... I have a really hard time believing anything you say/interpret about Revelation, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Isaiah... Matthew, Thes 1&2, Corinthians, Luke.... etc. You say that you will be out of here BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel starts... before the Great Tribulation.... and then you go about trying to interpret the Book of Rev, the Book of Daniel....etc Why should anyone believe you? And please.... don't tell us that you are leaving information for those who are "left behind" Anything that doesn't line up with the pre-trib dogma falls into the category of... metaphor, analogy, its prose...it doesn't really mean that.... its anything but what is actually written. Its like you are saying that God the Holy Spirit has Alzheimer's or something..... like He can't say what He means. Euphrates River is a metaphor for "plagues"? ROFL.... you're killing me brother.