Still Alive

Yep. I agree. Interestingly, there is plenty of fodder for campaign ads showing that it strongly appears that he did so begrudgingly. Kinda like Biden dropping out. Democrats fascinate me. I said after Biden was elected that he wouldn't last long. And in a sane world he wouldn't have. But I also said that I saw Kamala as a sort of Spiro Agnew and they would get rid of her first, appoint in her place the person they REALLY wanted to be president, and then apply the 25th amendment to Biden. But now they are stuck with Harris. I don't expect it to end well for them. We're still in the honeymoon. That ends at the convention.

I remember during one of the election results, a few elections ago and some black neighborhoods voted 100% for Obama. Obviously it raised my suspicion about cheating, but make of that aspect what you will. Fact is, they voted 100% for Obama. So yeah, blacks usually vote democrat, which is odd, considering the history of the D party. But as the free flow of information via the internet gets teeth, more and more of them are coming around.

I just skimmed your post, but I'm not sure where you are going with it. Are you agreeing that Jesus was, is and is to come? Your post is pretty long so I'm guessing there is some nuance you are trying to bring out here. But I'm not understanding.

Verse 58 is, IMO, one of the most amazing verses in the bible. He tells us who he is by the weird switch in tense. Simply using "I am." in such a way tells you he was, is, and is to come. He simply "is".

To quote Joe Biden, "C'mon, man!" I have tried with you. But I no longer argue subjects like this ad-nausium when I can defer to easy to read articles and often even point someone directly to the parts of said ariticles or books that address their specific question. I hereby invoke the wisdom outlined here: Bible Verses About Arguing

It's all covered in the links I provided. In fact, sometimes I even shared search terms that will get you straight to a very well presented argument. Again, no need for me to re-invent the wheel.

Teachers are a great help too. And regarding the "rapture", exactly!

I've tried for almost two decades. Now I just supply links. No need to re-invent the wheel. I see this as one of those "lead a horse to water" things.

Reading the bible is not really all that useful, IMO. Rather, I think it is critical to study it. A simple reading can really get you way off the reservation. Often it is simply because one is reading a flawed translation, or a flawed part of an otherwise useful translation. That's why we go to teachers to broaden our perspective on what we are reading or studying. That's why schools don't just hand you a Trigonometry book and wish you luck. BTW, what you call "eternal separation from God in hell", I call what the bible calls it: John 3:16 - eternal life vs perish. Romans 6:23 Wages of sin = death; gift of God = eternal life But like I said, there are lots of sources that go into great detail about this. Edward Fudges book is one. The link in my tag line is a really good "reader's digest" version, and this two parter about Lazarus and the Rich man, though the most difficult read of the three, is very informative (parts 1 and 2 below): https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-one/ https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-two/ BTW, if you prefer videos, there are a ton here: https://rethinkinghell.com/

It has to do with elohim. And be careful about siding with the "consensus" on such things. The arguments against it talking about humans are the strongest of all. One of the most important things I learned in my Christian walk is to not believe teachers simply because they seem to know more than me, or they are older, or they've been a Christian longer. We are talking about issues where highly educated Christians disagree. Try this: https://drmsh.com/the-plural-elohim-of-psalm-82-gods-or-men/

In all seriousness, CI advocates get around those all the time without breaking a sweat. That's why you have to read the arguments made by both sides before you can come to a reasoned and defensible position. It's what I did. I did it with my beliefs regarding the rapture as well. I've included links to a few of the more scholarly arguments on the CI side. I recommend reading them. And you needn't fear them. If they are false, the Lord will protect you. I sincerely believe that.

I'm sorry, but I have to end this particular discussion. Before I studied this issue, that article would have been convincing. But not any more. I've argued almost every point in that article ad-nausium over the last 15 years. The ones I haven't argued I need not address because they are just fluff. Again, I recommend the link in my tag line and the book, The Fire that Consumes, by Edward Fudge

Read the lexicon for Psalm 82. Either God is chastising the holy spirit or he's talking to other "gods". I believe it's the latter. And the word used in elohim, plural.

Seriously, you need to read the whole thing. If you had, you would not make any of the comments about the summary that you did. It's all backed up, and in almost excruciating detail. Like so many scholarly reads, it can be difficult at times. I had to read some sentences a second time to really get the meaning.

It is human vs elohim. Elohim is the spiritual beings in the unseen realm. e.g. Angels, Seraphim, etc. They are all job titles. So is satan. Think of them as fish in the ocean and we are land creatures. It's touched on in Psalm 82, though many scholars try to explain it away. I've learned that the teaching in the bible has little in common with what we all learned in children's Sunday school, where we were taught, as kids, by adults that got their information the same way, etc. The bible has so much other information right in front of our noses that we literally don't see. It's like self hypnosis - where you are looking in a cluttered room for an item and don't see it even though it is right there in front of you. I've learned through study that a LOT of the teaching of the bible is like that. Even in context. No, I mean ESPECIALLY in context. BTW Yahweh is the Elohim. The head spiritual being. And Jesus is the human, The "head" human.

That's the fun part. I forced my way through it and discovered the irrelevant parts are anything but. I'll give you the high points of it's claims, though: 1. Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, but none of the others there are either. Rather, they are five parts of a single parable. 2. The description of heaven and hell is aimed directly at the Pharisees from their own "non-inspired" writings. He's literally using their claimed description of heaven and hell against them. 3. All of those parables, as a whole, are a testimony against the Pharisees to whom he is talking. The rest of the text is in essence backing all of those (and other points) up.

Jesus talked of Gehenna as an analogy. He never once mentioned "hell", though some translations use that later made up word. That's why some translations say Gehenna, rather than Hell. It is a real place with a real history.

That is another one that would not surprise me. More and more people are losing their overt fear of nuclear weapons as more is learned about them. The fallout scare only really applies if it is a really big one, and a ground burst. Of course, all out nuclear war as depicted in the movies would be bad too. :wink: But Nukes are, at the end of the day, really just big bombs, and some are not as big as people think. I've experimented with this site for well over a decade: https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ Here is the control panel: You pick a location on a google type map. You pick your bomb. Pick air or ground burst. and then you press the "nuke it" button. It will give concentric rings of types of damage and fallout. It's from this I learned that if you dropped the Hiroshima bomb with an air burst above the UW campus in Seattle, it wouldn't even break windows downtown. And on a side note, since the buildings are not made of paper, as they were in hiroshima, it would look more like downtown Berlin after an air raid. Once people's fear of nukes being the end of the world, expect someone to use one. And then we're off to the races...and not in the good way.

First, yes, it was a typo. Second, I cannot emphasize this enough: It's not talking about human beings. That's why I use the analogy of elohim being steel and human flesh being wood. Fire has a different impact on each. The verse is about elohim beings, not human beings.

Regarding Lazarus and the rich man, I probably should throw this out to give a perspective on where I'm coming from. I look at it holistically. It's in two parts and probably longer than you want to read, but it also pretty much covers it. Especially at the very end, which makes sense only if you read the rest of it. It's in two parts. https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-one/ https://www.concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/rich-man-lazarus-part-two/

Revelation 10:10 is the verse I'm talking about. I thought I included it in the text I quoted from your post. Regarding "why" God would do something, He explains his reasons all the time. And all the time He warns us that if we do X, then Y will happen. And as he explains the "why" of his actions one gets a better understanding of His actions, and His personality, just as one does with a person they have a relationship with. For example, if someone told me my wife is in the back yard torturing kittens, I'd not believe it. I have a personal relationship with her and know lies about her when I hear them. Same with God. He exposes His personality in how he deals with his human enemies over and over again in the OT. He ends them. They may do some suffering in this life, to be sure, but if they remain an enemy he simply ends them. He sends them to hades/sheol/grave. Done and done. And every warning tells us what this one does: The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. It's not about heaven or hell. It's not about geography. It's about condition. You are either or alive or dead. It's all so simple - and binary - and has been since Genesis. He has not wavered at all. But people seem to want to "scare" people into church for whatever reason. That was never the gospel of Jesus or any of his disciples. The message was always about Grace. I embrace it.

By "we're", I mean those that are still alive and still in this world. Beyond that, yeah, I know where I'm headed. And that's why I love Paul's advise to Timothy. I live by it. I had open heart surgery in 3/23. I had had shoulder surgery about 15 years before and I remembered the experience of being put under. I took a breath, took a second breath and in the middle of the second breath I was waking up in the recovery room. Same thing happened with the heart surgery, only 12 hours later. However, because of the first experience, I was quite aware, before I took that second breath, that if I did not survive the surgery it would be my last breath. I embraced* it. I found out over a year after the surgery that it went hours longer than they are normally comfortable with and I was expected to die. But the number of people praying for me was, well, rather large. And I think my wife needs me (we're both 70 now). She literally lived in my hospital room for the roughly 4 weeks I was there. Sleeping on a couch. *I was only able to embrace it because my wife had completely removed all fear about what would happen to her if I died. That was my singular concern before the surgery.

Well, like I always say, make of it what you will. We all do. I would recommend that you check out conflicting views on Lazarus and the Rich man, though. I think it is a very important parable when you get past the "heaven and hell" thing. There is a lot there. And a lot of people have some detailed things to say about it.

Hades is the grave. It is not heaven nor hell. And as I've said with other aspects of this...never mind. I have debated these points for over a decade. Though there are many articles written on all the things we've discussed as well as this, the link I provided covers it nicely. And if you're looking for more than the goldilocks rundown, start here: The fire that consumes

Two things: First, I was focusing on the word, "unbelievers" in the claim. That is not part of the verse. That's why I asked "why". And I consider that word to be the most powerful in the English language. It is the difference between 1st degree murder and killing in self defense. So, my "why" is about "unbelievers" within the context of the claim. And by "why", I mean what would God be accomplishing by putting unbelieving humans in such a place for all eternity, considering that he warns us over and over that the wages of sin is death - which is a word humans have always understood?