Steve Conley

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ and you give account for your eschatological teaching, particularly that, instead of warning and preparing the church for the most severe persecution imaginable, as Christ, Paul, Peter and John did, you instead set them at ease saying, "its not for you, don't worry, you will be raptured first." Will you then cite all these "theologians" whom you now put your faith in. Will it help you to not be ashamed in His presence. Will He say, "its not your fault", because they taught you wrong. No He will most certainly remind you of those who were faithful witnesses to the truth. Those who expounded unto you the Word of God. Those who warned you of your eisegesis. Those you blindly dismissed. He will likely reprove you for being less than a Berean, for failing to hear the truth proclaimed, and then not proving all things. Has He not told us through the Apostle Paul: 1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. We are not to quench or silence the ministry of the Spirit to us through the preaching of the Word. We are to hear and then test or prove the proclamation that was received, through diligent examination of the Scriptures. If it passes the test hold on to it tightly. If it fails the test put it away from you. It's not to late to repent and begin to undue the damage you have already caused. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation Man, I agree that the period that begins in the midst of the week that Jesus calls great tribulation is the last of what we call the church age, because the church (the elect) will most certainly suffer in it only to be rescued before every last believer is martyred. Find documentation in the chart below. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation Man, I have been preaching for 30+ years and like you I was given a system to use that I was told would make sense of all the various eschatological passages. It is the pre-trib/dispensational system. I grew up with it and became an expert in it, making the doctrine and arguments of the men at the forefront of the defense of pretribulationism my own. I was comfortable with the consensus of my peers until a few years ago I began to find Scriptural texts which were contrary to that system. The common practice of hermeneutical gymnastics and eisegesis I could no longer stomach. One of hundreds of examples is the Rev 19 passage that has absolutely nothing to say about the rapture. Revelation 19 is not the arrival of Christ when He returns. It is His activity further into the day of the Lord. Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Before Christ soils His vesture with the blood (Rev 19:13) of the nations which follow the Beast, He pours out His wrath suddenly upon the day of his arrival. All the trumpet and vial judgements must be complete first. It will take much time for them to be accomplished. At least six months, and maybe even 3 years. The fifth trumpet alone lasts 5 months. The Scripture is clear that His wrath begins to be poured out suddenly upon the day of His arrival. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. Rev 19 is not Matt 24:30. Matt 24:30-31 is 1Thes 4:15-17; 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; 2:1-2; Rev 1:7; Heb 9:28; etc Even as a pre-triber I understood that the saints of history expected to see the antichrist and suffer at his hand in the great tribulation before being rescued by Christ. What we were indoctrinated with (pretribulationism), is a new teaching that has no Scriptural support. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation Man, the only thing that is shortened is the unprecedented persecution of the church. This Christ does by removing us from the earth with the rapture. The Beast continues for all of his 42 months, the week is still 7 years, and Christ returns before its end to accomplish the remaining conditions of Dan 9:24. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Hallelujah

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation Man, the times of the Gentiles has nothing to do with the fullness of the Gentiles. The Times of the Gentiles is the period of Gentile hegemony over Israel and Jerusalem. The fullness of the Gentiles refers to God calling out a people for Himself from among the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. The fullness of the Gentiles will be come in when the great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return. That is when the last Gentile is added to Christ. It is at that point that blindness in part is removed from Israel. This happens before God begins to pour out his wrath upon the Beast worshiping persecutors of the elect and Israel. We know that an innumerable company of Gentiles come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:9-17). So, Israel is still under the decreed blindness from God until after the great tribulation is over at Christ's parousia. The times of the Gentiles will continue until the Beast and the armies that follow him are destroyed in the end of the week. John records, "...the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Rev 11:2) These 42 months take place in the second half of the week. The order is: 1) The covenant confirmed with the many begins the seventieth week (Dan 9:27). Just as the church age began with exclusively Jewish believers, so also, will the Church continue into the week determined upon Israel and Jerusalem. God dealt with Israel in 70 AD for their rejection of their Messiah in the midst of the Church age and He deals with them now in the midst of the church age by provoking them to jealousy. It is to be expected that He will again deal with them at the end of the church age. 2) Deception, conquest, war, pestilence, famines, and earthquakes take place in the beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8; Luke 21:10-11; Rev 6:1-6). Note, that nothing is said to be unprecedented about these events. These are a continuation of that which mankind has witnessed throughout the times of the Gentiles or even the church age. However, there appears to be an anticipatory intensification of them here. 3) Then in the middle of the week after Satan is cast from Heaven to the earth (Rev 12:7-12), Michael stands aside (Dan 12:1; 2Thes 2:3-10) and Satan gives power to the Beast (Rev 13:4-5; 2Thes 2:9-10), who reveals himself by his presence in the rebuilt temple (Dan 9:27; Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:3-4). When he does this the temple is defiled and the daily sacrifice and oblation are stopped (Dan 9:27). It is at this time that Jesus says great tribulation begins (Matt 24:21). 4) Beginning in the middle of the week and lasting for an undisclosed period of time the elect (the church) will face unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9) at the hands of the Beast, False Prophet, and those that follow them (Matt 24:21; Dan 12:1; Rev 12:17). The persecution will be so severe that it will threaten to eliminate every last believer from the earth, and because of this, God cuts it short (Matt 24:22). This time will also be one of extreme deception (Matt 24:11). So much so, that Jesus said that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived (Matt 24:24). He also said that at this time many would be offended (Matt 24:10), that is leave the faith, and betray and hate one another. Paul called this departure from the faith the "apostasia" or a falling away (2Thes 2:3). 5) Also beginning in the middle of the week will be a time of unprecedented persecution of Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers, called Jacob's trouble (Jer 30:7). This is the wrath of the dragon (Satan) focused upon the woman (Rev 12:12-17). Two thirds of Israel shall be killed and the other third brought through the fire and refined (Zech 13:8-9). It will continue the 42 months that the Beast continues (Rev 13:5; Dan 7:25). A remnant of Israel will be protected, hid and fed in the wilderness during this time (Rev 12:13-15). Also there will be 144,000; 12,000 from each of the tribes with the exception of Dan that will be sealed for protection while they remain upon the earth through the period of God's wrath that comes later in the week, but within the forty two months (Rev 7:1-8). 6) The great tribulation will be cut short by Christ's return (Matt 24:29-30). It will be portended by the cosmic sign that Joel and Peter spoke of (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20; Matt 24:29; Luke 21:25-27; Rev 6:12-17). It is at that time that the church finds rest from persecution (2Thes 1:6-10). 7) The whole world will see Christ when He arrives in the clouds with His holy angels (Rev 1:7; Rev 24:27; 2Thes 1:7; Matt 24:30). 8) At that time the trump of God will sound and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible and those elect who survived shall be changed (Dan 12:1-2; 1Cor 15:51-52). 9) Then we all (the elect) shall be gathered (caught up) to Jesus in the clouds by the angels (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1). 10) Christ will then escort us to the Father's house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17). 11) The 144,000 thousand shall be sealed for protection from the trumpet and vial judgements while remaining upon the earth (Rev 7:1-8). 12) The wrath of God begins to be poured out later upon the same day as his arrival (Luke 17:26-30; 2Thes 1:6-10), in the form of the trumpet and later the vial judgements and the destruction of the Beast, False Prophet, and the armies that follow them at Armageddon (Rev 8, 9, 16-19). Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, There you go again, using misleading unbiblical terminology, "the Tribulation period". It is misleading in the since that it implies that the 7 years are God's wrath in the day of the Lord. The seven years are made up of 1) the beginning of sorrows, then 2) great tribulation, then 3) the day of the Lord and God's wrath poured out therein. These happen one after the other. It is in verse 9 that the great tribulation is first referenced in the discourse. It's a shame you cannot be corrected by the Word of God. You are so indoctrinated into the dangerous escapism of the pre-trib lie that you have become blind to the simple (easy to be understood) statements of our Lord. If you are a part of the last generation of the church, you will most certainly face great tribulation. If you are among the few to physically survive it you will see the cosmic sign that portends His appearance. You also will see Him in all His glory as He comes with His holy angels in the clouds. At that time He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change those who are alive and remain. He will than send His angels to gather us to Him in the clouds, to be with Him forever. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Jesus absolutely says different. He says great tribulation starts when the abomination of desolation takes place. Daniel says that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Can you read? A lot happens in the middle of the week, and it is all associated with the revelation of the man of sin, the Beast, or Antichrist (whichever you prefer to call him) and the start of the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel by him. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Until he stands aside in the middle. "the way" is translated from mesos which means middle) 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. ... Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It's not that hard to see, it just requires believing what you read even when it's contrary to the system you were taught. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, should I address you as "old man", since you seem to diminutively call other commenters "son". You are wrong again, the great tribulation corresponds with what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals. Just as the beginning of sorrows corresponds with the first three seals. You have a hard time believing what Jesus said concerning the cosmic sign that appears immediately following the great tribulation (Matt 24:29). You know the cosmic sign that Joel and Peter said would come before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20). The same cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal (Rev 6:12). God's wrath shall not be poured out upon the earth dwellers until the day of the Lord, and the day of the Lord cannot come until the cosmic sign takes place, and the cosmic sign cannot happen until the great tribulation is cut short. You are having a hard time understanding that the time of unprecedented severe persecution Jesus called great tribulation is different and independent of the wrath of God poured out upon the day of the Lord. They are separated from one another by the cosmic sign, Christ's return, the first resurrection, the rapture, and the sealing of the 144,000, all of which takes place upon the very day of Christ'a arrival. You are right to think that God's wrath begins in Revelation 8 at the blowing of the first trumpet, however, that is not the period Jesus called great tribulation. The first trumpet is the beginning of God's wrath in the day of the Lord which comes after the we are removed from the earth to safety in Heaven. What John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the cosmic sign which portends the day of the Lord (Rev 6:12-17). The day of the Lord begins with Christ's coming (parousia) 2Thes 2:1-2). The parousia involves His arrival and continuing presence. Upon revealing Himself to all the world at His arrival (Rev 1:7), Christ will resurrect the dead in Christ (1Cor 15:51-52; Dan 12:1-2) and rapture them together with the elect who survived great tribulation (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17). He will escort us to the fathers house to stand before the throne (Rev 7:9-17). He will seal the 144,000 for protection from the trumpet and vial judgements (Rev 7:1-8). Then, after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven shall He begin to pour out His wrath over the many months or years that remain in the second half of the week (Rev 8-). Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation Boy, yes I meant to use boy instead of man to get your attention. When commenting, it is not my intention to expound to you every last detail of the Holy Scriptures. The reason I only brought up the middle of the three questions is that it was the one which pertained to our discussion. "When shall these things be", refers to the destruction of the city and temple which took place in 70 AD. "And of the end of the world" (aeon), this is equivalent with Christ's coming since it is when Christ returns. Children like to speak of the obvious (it is that which adults take as a given, something already understood) thinking that it makes themselves look like an adult. Revelation Boy it is time for you to go to school. Lesson 1 We have the privilege of being given three parallel accounts of the Olivet Discourse. The observance of all three will provide us with a clear picture of what Christ was communicating. To understand the chronology of events as Christ spoke of them we must pay close attention to words which carry temporal (relating to time) meaning. Notice that both Matthew and Luke record details of the period that Jesus calls the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. Notice also that what John sees at the opening of the first three seals corresponds closely with Christ's description of the beginning of sorrows. Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. These are the beginning of sorrows, or early birth pains. It is interesting that Luke records that Jesus told the disciples what takes place before the beginning of sorrows. Note the temporal language used. Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. Jesus in Luke describes the various persecutions of the church age, especially at the beginning of it. However, Matthew follows the details of the beginning of sorrows with "then", and gives a description of great tribulation. This great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the elect (church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers) is given further clarification by Jesus in verses 15 thru 29 of Matthew's account. We know this is true because of the use of "therefore" in verse 15. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: So, we see that there is persecution before the beginning of sorrows (from the days of the Apostles until now) and at the time of and following the beginning of sorrows. Luke is the only one of the three that records Christ's answer concerning the destruction of the city and temple. Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Obviously you haven't looked at any of my comments or posts if you think that I teach there is no tribulation or persecution for the church. We have been, and are presently being persecuted, and after the revelation of the Beast in the middle of the week that persecution will become so severe that Christ calls it unprecedented great tribulation. He also says that He must cut it short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). He does this with His return. That's all I have time for now Revelation Man. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, you and I agree that the "The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky". Where you go wrong is when you add "BEFORE the tribulation begins". However, there is a since that your wording could be considered correct. But, only so, if by "tribulation" you mean the "tribulation" referred to in 2Thes 1:6. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The tribulation spoken of there, is God's wrath poured out in the day of the Lord against the Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the church. That tribulation is fundamentally different than the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. The great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. As Paul says the church will find rest from persecution, even the most extreme form of it, "great tribulation", when Christ comes and pours out His vengeance upon the persecutors of the church and Israel. Concerning the time that the church is safely before the throne in Heaven while God's wrath is poured out. This takes place after great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return in the latter portion of the week (Matt 24:29-31). Also you are confused into thinking that there is two comings of Christ in the future, when there is only one parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ yet to come. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. Each of these refer to the arrival of Christ at His second coming. He comes the second time to stay (this doesn't mean He will be on the earth right away, but He will be actively engaged in avenging the murders of His own, through the trumpet, and vial judgements). There will not be a third parousia. It is important to note that His second coming is much more than His arrival, as spectacular as that will be. At His parousia: He will be revealed to all, He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change the living believer. He will send angels to catch up the survivors together with the resurrected saints to be with Him in the clouds. He will escort us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. He will cause the 144,000 to be sealed for protection while remaining upon the earth through the pouring out of His wrath. He will begin the salvos of His wrath after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven when the first trumpet is blown. While the earth dwellers face His wrath we will stand before the bema seat in Heaven to be Judged etc Much like Christ's first coming was more than His conception or birth, so also, His second coming will be comprehensive. The problem is that you have Him arriving twice, once secretly and also in the end week for all to see. What you fail to see is that Revelation 19 is not depicting His arrival but His action against the Beast and the armies which follow him at the end of the week. The truth is that He only arrives once for all to see (Rev 1:7, 1 Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:29-31). The Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the saints unto death will hide at His revelation (Rev 6:12-17). However, the persecuted saints that survive to that time will have our heads up and be looking for Him when the cosmic sign and great earthquake portends His arrival (Luke 21:28). Instead of setting the saints at ease, you should be warning them, like Jesus did, concerning the great persecution that will come upon the last generation of His elect, the church and Israel. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Revelation Man, the reason that we place the beginning of sorrows in the first half of the week is because Christ's description of that time parallels closely that which John sees at the opening of the first three seals. Remember, Jesus is answering the question about the sign of His coming, that is, what events will indicate the Lord's return is at hand. This lets us know that the general time He is referring to is that at the end of the age. By the way, there is nothing peaceful about the first 3 1/2 years. That is an assumption forced into the week by the artificial pre-trib model for the rapture of the church. The 3 1/2 years that follow the confirming of the covenant with many will have conquest, war, pestilence, famine, earthquakes, and deception. (Rev 6:1-8; Matt 24:4-8) But nothing is said about it being unprecedented, we have seen these types of events since the fall. After Satan is cast from Heaven in the middle of the week (Rev 12), he comes to the earth having great wrath (vs 12). At this time Michael will stand aside and an unprecedented time of trouble shall begin (Dan 12:1). Jesus calls this trouble or severe persecution, "great tribulation", and links its beginning to the abomination of desolation (Matt 25:15). The abomination of desolation is the defiling of the temple so as to make it unfit for sacrifice. Daniel says it happens in the midst of the week (Dan 9:27). It is the presence of the Beast and/or an image of him in the holy place that defiles it (Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:3-4; Rev 13:14-15). The "peace and safety" that is thought to be had by the Beast worshipers, comes after most of the Christians and Israelis are killed during the great tribulation in the first portion of the second half of the week. It is when it appears as though all believers will be extinguished from the earth that Christ returns, we are raptured, and sudden destruction falls upon our persecutors. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The birth motif is a common one for that culture. It starts with the early birth pains that ultimately build in intensity over many weeks until there is a birth. In this allusion, Christ's arrival in the day of the Lord, is the birth and the pains begin with what John sees at the opening of the first seal. They steadily increase until Christ's arrival. 1) The first 3 1/2 years are the beginning of sorrows. (corresponds to seals 1-3) 2) Followed by the first part of the second half of the week which is great tribulation, Daniel calls an unprecedented time of trouble. It is the unparalleled persecution of the elect (church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet and their followers. (corresponds to seals 4-5) 3) The second half of the week is also the time of Jacobs trouble, of which the emphasis is the persecution of Israel. It will last until the Beast is vanquished at the end of the week. (corresponds to seals 4-5) 4) Christ cuts the great tribulation short with His return to resurrect the dead, rapture the surviving saints, and pronounce His vengeance upon the earth dwellers. (corresponds to seal 6) 5) The last months or years of the second half of the week is the beginning of the day of the Lord in which the trumpet and vial judgements are poured out upon the earth dwellers and Christ destroys of the Beast and the armies that follow him at Armageddon. (corresponds to the 7th seal) Revelation Man, you are wrong about the beginning of the day of the Lord. It is certain that God's vengeance will not be poured out until the first trumpet judgement. Perhaps the best evidence for this is what John sees in Heaven when the fifth seal is opened. In reply to the cry of martyred saints under the alter concerning when their blood would be avenged, they are told that they would have to wait for a little season until their brethren and fellowservants are martyred as they were. It is an absolute that God's, day of the Lord, wrath is yet to be initiated at the opening of the fifth seal. On top of that, at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign spoken of by Joel. Joel says that the cosmic sign must come before the day of the Lord. So, the day of the Lord cannot happen until after the opening of the sixth seal. In fact the fierce wrath of God doesn't begin until after 1/2 hour of silence at the blowing of the first trumpet (Rev 8). So much for your unbiblical eschatological model. A right understanding of eschatology is not rocket science, it just requires reading the Holy Scriptures and believing what you read. Concerning the 30 to 75 days, those numbers come from the difference between 1260 and the 1290 and 1335 found in Daniel 12:11-12. The implication of this is that not only does the Beast get 42 months from the middle of the week, but there also must be time left in the week after the Beast's destruction to fulfill the remaining conditions given in Dan 9:24. That means that the abomination of desolation (revelation of the Beast) doesn't happen in the precise 1260 day mark of the week but must rather be shifted to between thirty and seventy five days before that point. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, you pre-tribbers are great at making assertions but weak on evidence. What evidence do you have for your first statement? A few Scriptures that say what you have would be nice. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, with your confused hermenutic you have turned Paul's correction to the Thessalonian's into an incoherent mess. Your error is that you approached the text filtering all of it through your flawed pre-trib and faulty dispensational system. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Paul is talking about the parousia and our gathering unto Christ at that time 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; He says before that day comes there will be a notable departure from the faith and the man of sin (the Beast) be revealed. 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. The Beast will be revealed when he stands and sits in the temple shewing that he is God. Jesus spoke of this very thing in Matt 24:15 when he referenced Daniel's abomination of desolation. The revelation of the Beast takes place in the middle of the week after Satan is cast out of Heaven (Rev 12:12). It is at that time that Michael stands up and an unprecedented time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1). 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? Paul had already taught them these truths. 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Paul said that they already knew what was restraining the revelation of the Beast until it is time for him. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Paul says that Satan is already at work but is restrained until Michael stands aside in the middle. "The way" is translated from mesos, which means middle. (See Michael's relationship to the middle of the week on this forum) 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Notice it is after the restrainer is removed that the Beast will be revealed. It is the same Beast that shall be vanquished after his 42 months are over. This will happen at the end of the week at the battle of Armageddon. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. The Beast will be empowered by Satan and he will be performing lying wonders and will deceive all those who received not the love of the truth. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, what did Jesus charge His disciples with before He ascended up into Heaven? Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Unless you are a hyper dispensationalist you acknowledge this to be the operative responsibility of the church today. Notice that they were to teach them to observe "all things" that Jesus had commanded them. The time Jesus spent with the Apostles was to prepare them for their apostolic ministry as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). Just because the church wasn't in existence yet doesn't mean that Christ didn't have anything to say to or about it. It is utter foolishness to claim John 14:3 for the church and deny what Jesus said about His coming two days before as recorded in Matt 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 as being only for the eschatological Jew. In fact the end of the aion that the disciples asked about in Matt 24:3, that takes place at Christ's second coming, is the same aion (world) that Jesus refers to in Matt 28:20 when he says: "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen". By the way, thank you for your service to our country. All praise, honour, and glory to the lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, your faith in the work of Thomas Ice, will only lead to ever more false teaching on your part. This a shameful attempt on your part to concoct an explicit statement of a pre-trib rapture where none exists. It is my experience having followed the teaching of Thomas Ice for some time that he is not interested in truth, he appears to only be interested in that which props up the false teaching (pre-tribulationism) that he is so heavily invested in. Even the late Dr. Walvoord spoke against the foolishness of trying to make apostasia mean the rapture. Your lack of linguistic understanding leaves you vulnerable to all the "supposed evidence" that Ice heaps up. He has you believing that the verb cognates of the noun apostasia can be used to define its meaning. Thomas Ice should know better, but he is happy to give people like you what you want to hear. It just builds his following. Concerning your question to me, there is nothing wrong with the word departure. In fact all the uses of the noun apostasia in Koine Greek refer to either a religious or political departure. It isn't until the fifth century, long after the Koine period, that there is record of even one use of departure (apostasia) in the physical/spatial sense. Paul Feinberg wrote, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” He is a pre-tribulationist, but he's doing real research unlike what Thomas Ice is feeding you. Ice heaps up vast amounts of meaningless tripe in an attempt to weary those searching for truth. You would do well to expand you research of the subject at hand. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, you can say that till the cows come home, but it doesn't make it so. You have been deceived into dismissing many of Christ's most pertinent warnings to us and are actively involved in the deception of others. I'm here to expose the lies that you promote. I once believed and taught as you do, until God had mercy upon me and showed me the eisegesis that I was, as you are, involved in. The shame you will bear for your lack of faithfulness in diligent study when you stand before Christ can be remedied now with repentance and the undoing the harm you have caused to others through this prosperity gospel like escapism that you preach. If you live long enough you will see the fruit of your pernicious activity when you see the horror upon the faces of those you have deceived when they experience the wrath of the Satan through the Beast and False Prophet that most certainly will come upon the last generation of the church. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, from what you have said it appears that you are in your late 80s or 90s. It is a shame that in all those years you haven't recognized some very simple and easily understood eschatological truths that are given to us in the Holy Scriptures. Like you, and most other pre-tribers, I recognize that we (the church) are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath (1Thes 5:9). I believe that we, like the faithful church in Philadelphia, will be kept from the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth (Rev 3:10). We will be removed from the earth (raptured) prior to this hour of temptation. I believe, like you, that this hour of temptation is the period of God's wrath poured out at the beginning of the day of the Lord. These truths, we could say, are self evident or easy to grasp. We both have these truths in common. However, the question remains: "When does God's wrath begin to be poured out upon the earth dwellers?" If we find conclusive statements in the Word of God concerning the timing of the beginning of God's wrath being poured out we can therefore know that we will be raptured prior to that point. It just so happens that this period, that contains the pouring out of God's wrath, is the most spoken of event in all of the Holy Scriptures. It is called the day of the LORD. If I understand you correctly, you recognize that it is the wrath of God in the day of the Lord that the church is "kept from". So, the question further defined is: "When does the day of the Lord begin?" There are a hand full of explicit statements concerning conditions that must be so or events that must take place before the day of the Lord can begin. Lets look at some of them. 1) Elijah must come first Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Elijah will come and turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. He will come and fulfill his ministry before the day of the Lord begins. 2) There must be a great cosmic sign Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Many of the eschatological day of the Lord passages mention this cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars. 3) Paul gives two conditions: an apostasia (a notable departure from the faith) and the man of sin (Beast) revealed in the temple 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord as many manuscripts have it) will not come until the conditions are met that Paul identifies. Since you see apostasia in an unorthodox way and Elijah's coming might not be easy to identify from this side of the world, lets focus on an event that will be unmistakable and evident to everyone. This event will allow us to identify the beginning of the day of the Lord in relation to other eschatological happenings. The cosmic sign Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. First it is certain that Joel's cosmic sign must precede the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The word "before" in this context means "prior to". We know this because Peter quotes this verse in Acts 2:20 and Luke under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit recorded it with a Greek word that only means "prior to", as apposed to the Hebrew that Joel used that could mean "in the face of". Since this cosmic sign must come before the day of the Lord are there any other mentions of the sign in relation to the events of the seventieth week? Absolutely. The most obvious is what John sees when the sixth seal is opened. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? What John sees corresponds closely to Isaiah's prophecy concerning the reaction of the wicked on the day of the LORD when God's wrath is impending. Notice the great earthquake. Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. This that John sees is the response of the earth dwellers to the impending wrath of God which is to begin the very same day. I say "the very same day" because both Jesus and Paul make it clear that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering unto Him will initiate His wrath in the day of the Lord. The very same day Notice that Jesus says that when God's wrath was poured out in the days of Noah and Lot, that they were taken to safety, before wrath fell upon the wicked, and that it fell upon them the very same day. He then says that it will happen the same way in the day of His revelation, which is at His coming. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Notice that Paul identifies that the church will be free from trouble, or to say it another way, have rest from being persecuted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed. It is at Christ's revelation that the church's persecutors will face tribulation in the form of God's vengeance. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Both Jesus and Paul teach that our rescue (rapture) will take place upon the very day that God's wrath falls upon the wicked. If the wrath of God is preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark, and if our rescue (that is, those of us who are alive and remain or survive) happens the same day God's wrath falls upon the wicked, then we can understand that God's wrath doesn't fall until after the cosmic sign seen at the opening of the sixth seal. In fact with further study we will see that the first stroke of God's eschatological wrath is the first trumpet judgement in Rev 8. No wrath of God upon the wicked at the fifth seal Notice that there has been no vengeance yet at the opening of the 5th seal. The martyred saints are crying out that their blood be avenged upon the earth dwellers. They are told that vengeance would not come for a little season until others are martyred also. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. So, there is no wrath of God yet at the opening of the fifth seal. The first mention of God's wrath in the Revelation is at the opening of the sixth seal where it is portended Notice also that this is the first use of the word wrath in relation to God's indignation in the book of Revelation. All twelve uses of God's wrath in the book come after the sixth seal is opened. These cosmic events portend Christ's coming and the wrath that will follow. Notice what Luke records of Christ's words at the Olivet Discourse. Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Jesus says there is 1) the cosmic sign, 2) followed by His coming in a cloud and 3) the redemption of the believer. Mathew records records Christ's words with additional information. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Jesus here says after 1) great tribulation is cut short (Vs 22) 2) the cosmic sign will appear, 3) then all the world shall see Him coming in the clouds, and 4) He will send His angels to gather His elect to Him. Are these cosmic signs all the same event? We have seen some of the places where a cosmic sign is spoken of. The question is whether or not they all refer to the same event. Since there is no statement in any of the passages that "this is that which Joel spoke of," we must reason from the evidence to determine if these all speak of the same event. Lets examine the evidence. 1) Rev 6:12-17 We have already seen from Rev 6:9-11 that God's wrath will not be poured out until a little season after the opening of the fifth seal. We have also seen that at the opening of the sixth seal is the first use of (God's) wrath in the Book. It is also observable that the language used for the cosmic sign is very close between Joel 2:31 and Rev 6:12. Even though "the day of the Lord" is not mentioned by name in Rev 6:12-17 many prophetic aspects of it are present: a great earthquake, the hiding and fear of the wicked, cosmic signs, and the impending wrath of God. It can also be understood that this event portends Christ and involves Christ's coming. The evidence is extremely strong in favor Rev 6:12-13 being Joel's cosmic sign which must come before the day of the Lord. 2) Luke 21:25-28 and Matt 24:29-31 Since these are both parallel accounts of Christ's words in the Olivet discourse we shall treat them as a comprehensive statement. In the Olivet discourse Jesus is answering four of His disciples questions: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3) They wanted to know what events would signal that Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) is at hand (near). In the answer to their questions Jesus speaks of the condition of the world at the end of the age, leading up to His second coming. He describes a period of trouble involving deception, conquest, war, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes. This period He calls the beginning of sorrows. Note, that nothing about the beginning of sorrows is said to be unprecedented. After this He identifies a time of severe persecution for Christ's name sake and an associated great deception. He says it will involve many being offended and betraying one another. This will be a great falling away from the Faith. He goes on to further describe this period of severe persecution of the elect and Israel as unprecedented great tribulation. He also ties the beginning of great tribulation to the defiling of the temple (abomination of desolation) spoken of by Daniel. Daniel records that it takes place in the middle of the seventieth week. Jesus says that the persecution will be so severe that it must be Divinely cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth. He goes on to warn of great signs and wonders done by the false Christ and false prophet, saying that the deceptive quality of them is so great that if it were possible they would deceive even the very elect. From there He cautions that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, so, do not believe all the various false reports that will be given. He says that His revelation, at His parousia, will follow the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark, which will signal that the great tribulation is over. The world at that point will immediately become fearful, however the persecuted saints which have survived, at that time will look up and lift up their heads, for their redemption draweth nigh. Jesus says that He will appear in the clouds of heaven with His holy angels. When all the unbelieving world sees Him in His glory, He says they will mourn. He says that He will then send His angels to gather His elect to Him in the clouds. Now having seen much of Christ's answer, what is the evidence that the cosmic sign He speaks of is that of Joel 2:31 and that which John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. The cosmic sign of Matt 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26 happens before the revelation of Christ with all His holy angels. This is consistent with Paul's description that the at the revelation of Christ the church will find rest from persecution and God's wrath will be poured out. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: There is no mention of God's wrath in the Olivet Discourse until it is inferred in the example of the flood which takes place after the elect are gathered to Christ. In the chronology given by Christ the cosmic sign of Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, and Luke 21:25 is the first and only cosmic sign mentioned. There is strong evidence that the cosmic sign of which Jesus speaks is that prophesied by Joel. The implications are that the wrath of God in the day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation, the cosmic sign, Christ's revelation in glory in the clouds with the holy angels, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture of the elect (church), the church being escorted to the Father's house to stand before the throne, and the sealing of the 144,000. Then after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven at the blowing of the first trumpet God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earthdwellers. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, I see you are still peddling the "apostasia is the rapture" lie. Do you not realize contextually that you are making Paul say "the rapture will not come until the rapture comes". 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Notice that Paul sets the subject: "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". He Identifies the parousia (coming) and our gathering to Him as the day of Christ. The day of Christ, is the coming of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with His church, whereas, the day of the Lord, is the coming of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. They happen at the same time, at the singular second coming of Christ. Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Paul then reminds them that there are two notable events that must happen before Christ's return will be at hand, or imminent, the falling away and the revelation of the man of sin (Beast). As Jesus said there would be a great departure from the faith (many will be offended and deceived), and the revelation of the man of sin would bring great tribulation (Matt 24). If you are a believer, reading this, prepare yourself now for the greatest persecution that the church will ever face. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, I have no doubt that you can find all kinds of teachers, so called theologians, and/or pastors who will tell you what you want to hear. Paul told us this would be the case. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Heaping up false teachers doesn't make what your parroting true. The historical record from Justin Martyr to Charles Spurgeon is the expectation of seeing the Antichrist and suffering great tribulation at his hand. This prosperity gospel escapism that has become entrenched in evangelical churches over the last 100 years will serve to help facilitate the apostasy that Jesus spoke of as happening before His coming. When many "professing Christians" experience persecution and the lying wonders of the false prophet they will be offended and fall away. What will you do when you see the Beast and are asked to take the mark or starve or be beheaded? It is absolutely certain that the last generation of the church will experience the most severe persecution. I was a pre-trib teacher for thirty years and considered myself an expert. I was practically a disciple of Thomas Ice and the Pre-trib Research Center. Then the Lord had mercy on me and showed me that I was reading a flawed eschatological system into the text. Over a period of time, the Lord, with the text of the Holy Scriptures, demolished all the erroneous supports that I had for the pre-trib rapture. I know how hard it was for me to realize I was wrong, so, I'm not expecting any quick movement by any one away from a pre-trib position to the Biblical model that has come to be called pre-wrath. Notwithstanding, if you are in the last generation of the church, you will see the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and the revelation of the Beast, you will experience the wrath of Satan cast to the earth through the Beast and false prophet, and if you survive to the coming of Christ you will not die physically but be changed and raptured. When it happens know that you were told. It is all in the Holy Scriptures. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah End of the Age Chart PDF.pdf

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Quasar93, I see you are peddling the latest attempt to read a pre-trib rapture into the Scriptures. You make a vain attempt to evoke historic precedent, not realizing that the idea of spatial departure was never used in all 355 instances of the use of apostasia in Koine Greek literature. Every ancient theologian that wrote on the subject expected that the church would see the Beast (Antichrist) and suffer great tribulation at his hand before being rescued at Christ's coming. Every honest pre-trib scholar knows this well. What you are peddling is recent escapism that will leave the church unprepared for the greatest persecution to ever be experienced. Tertullian: “That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God....Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world.” Justin Martyr: “The man of apostasy...shall venture to do unlawful things on the earth against us, the Christians.” The Pastor of Hermas: “Happy ye who endure the Great Tribulation that is coming.” Irenaeus: “And the ten kings...shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight.” Barnabas: “Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are called of God, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the Kingdom of the Lord.” Hippolytus: “Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary. That refers to the 1260 days during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.” Each of these historic saints associate the church with the “great tribulation” persecution of the Antichrist. Not even one exempts the church from his reign of terror. There is no mention of a great escape of the church from great tribulation. That is a fantasy. Yes, we will be removed from the earth, before God's wrath begins to be poured out at the blowing of the first trumpet judgement, but most certainly, the church will face unprecedented persecution in the great tribulation until it is cut short by Christ's return. In 2Thes 2 Paul is simply reiterating what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus warned, again and again, about a great deception that would come right prior to His return. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Jesus mentioned that the persecution and deception would cause many to be offended resulting in them betraying and hating the true believers who refuse to take the mark or worship the Beast. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. He also mentioned that at the abomination of desolation unprecedented great tribulation would begin. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. We know that the abomination of desolation is when the Beast stands and sits in the temple shewing himself to be God (2Thes 2:3-8). It is this which defiles the temple thus causing the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Paul was letting the Thessalonians know that the day of Christ was not at hand because these significant events that Jesus spoke of had not happened yet. The persecution that they were experiencing was not that great tribulation that would come before Christ's return, because the man of sin is not yet revealed who begins the unparalleled persecution. It's not that hard to see that the church (the elect) will face great tribulation, which is the wrath of Satan (Rev 12:12) through the Beast upon the church and Israel. This great persecution will be cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). It will be cut short by Christ's return to resurrect the dead (1Cor 15:51-52), rapture those who are alive and remain together with the resurrected saints to Jesus in the clouds (1Thes 4:16-17; Matt 24:31), escort us safely to the Father house to stand before the throne (John 14:3, Rev 7:9-17), and later on the same day begin to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (Rev 8-9, 16-19). Get your teaching straightened out, so, that you are not rebuked at Christ's coming. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Still Alive, you have it right that the great tribulation is the wrath of Satan upon the elect (church) and Israel. It is also true that the Beast will continue after he is revealed for 42 months. However, according to Jesus, the great tribulation is cut short. It will not last 3.5 years. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The unprecedented persecution that Jesus calls great tribulation will begin in the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27). That is also when the Beast is revealed in the temple (2Thes 2:3-10) The great tribulation (persecution of the church and Israel by the Beast) will continue until the cosmic sign announces Christ's return (Matt 24:29; Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17). We are not told how long this is, but it cannot be more than 3 years because of the time needed to accomplish the trumpet and vial judgements and the destruction of the Beast and the armies that follow him at Armageddon, before the Messianic Kingdom is set up. Both the great tribulation and the wrath of God, in the beginning of the day of the Lord, take up the second half of the week, one after the other. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, you are correct that the church is not appointed unto wrath. We will not experience the wrath of God. Rev 3:10 speaks of that great truth. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. However, you are confusing "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world" with the unprecedented persecution, or as Jesus called it, "great tribulation" which will come upon the elect (church) and Israel. The ending of the verse ("to try them that dwell upon the earth") makes it clear that this testing is the beginning of the day of the Lord, and God's wrath upon the earth dwellers therein, and not Daniel's unprecedented "time of trouble" or Christ's "great tribulation". Concerning your statement "Those who enter the coming tribulation must repent in order to be saved [Revelation 3:15-22]". It appears as if you are implying that repentance isn't necessary now, but it will be during the great tribulation. All true faith involves repentance regardless what dispensation it is in. The faith which saves is not a mental consent to a string of propositions; it is living confidence in a personal Saviour. Today, one must repent to be saved. Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord. The End of the Age Diagram March 2018.pdf

Greetings in the name of the lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, from what I can tell you have the first six seals opened before the wrath of God is poured out on the day of the Lord following the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31. The day of the Lord is when the wrath of God comes suddenly upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. ... 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, It is the wrath of God upon day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. The very day that the saints are given rest from persecution, Christ begins to vent His fierce indignation upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. However, it is not true that the day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the week. That would be totally inconsistent with the wealth of information about that eschatological day. That would place what John sees at the opening of the seals taking place before the week begins. To have the Beast rise to power and shew himself to be God in the temple (middle of the week) cannot take place in the day of the Lord. To have believers being slaughtered by the Beast (great tribulation) in the day of the Lord is contrary to what Paul clearly taught. We are told that Christ alone will be exalted in that day. That day will have the unbelieving hiding, running, and scrambling from the continuing salvos of God's wrath coming in the form of the trumpet and vial judgements. This period of God's wrath will last many months at a minimum. The fifth trumpet judgement itself lasting 5 months. The great tribulation of the elect and Israel begins in the middle of the week and after an undisclosed period of time it is cut short with Christ's arrival with His wrath beginning on that very day. His arrival before the wrath is poured out is the day of our resurrection and rapture. Hallelujah If you want a reply, make sure you quote me, or else I'm not notified that I had a response. Thanks

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 11:36, let me help you a little. What I teach is called the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture, it has nothing to do with mid-trib rapture teaching. Mid-trib rapture teaching has most of the fundamental flaws found in pre-trib rapture teaching. Also, note that the discipline we are discussing is not theology. Theology is the study of God. We are discussing eschatology, the study of last things or the last days. If you can provide Scriptural building blocks, like I have, in support of your eschatological model I'll be happy to affirm them or respond in correction with sound exegesis of the pertinent texts. Unsupported assertions are no better than opinions, and everyone has them. Can you answer one question for me? Where does Joel 2:31 fit into your eschatological model? Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Thanks for your response. Hallelujah