Steve Conley

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Chris, Christ's appearing is the first action of Christ on the day of His coming (parousia). The many Scriptures that speak of Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) make it clear that there are many things that take place upon the literal day of His arrival. Note that the day of the Lord or the day of Christ, which can also be referred to as Christ's parousia, is not a single solar day, it is a period of time involving our rescue, God's wrath poured out, and Christ's eternal reign. Below find a great number of things said to take place upon the first day of Christ's parousia. 1) Great tribulation ends (Matt 24:21, 29) 2) The cosmic sign and great earthquake take place (Matt 24:29; Luke 21:25-26; Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17; Isa 13:6-11; 2:19-21) 3) Having seen the cosmic sign, the remaining believers will be encouraged and looking up into the sky for Him to appear for their redemption is near (Luke 21:25-28) 4) Christ returns in the clouds with the holy angels (Matt 24:30; 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 21:27-28; Rev 1:7). This is the epiphaneia (Titus 2:13), this is the sign (wonder) of the son of man (Mat 24:30), this is the revelation (2Thes 1:7) of Jesus Christ in all His glory for every eye to see. 5) The earth-dwellers who had been persecuting the church and Israel will be attempting to hide from the wrath of the Lamb that will begin to fall later the same day (Rev 6:12-17) 6) The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living saints are changed. This is the first resurrection (1Cor 15:23-24, 51-52; Rev 20:4-6; Dan 12:1-3) 7) The resurrected saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up (raptured) together by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1) ? We are taken to the Fathers house to stand before Christ at the throne of God (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17; Luke 21:36) 9) The sealing of the 144,000 Jews who will remain protected upon the earth through the trumpet and vial judgements (Rev 7:1-8) 10) There is a half hour of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1) 11) God's day of the Lord wrath begins to be poured out in the trumpet and later vial judgements (1Thes 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; Rev 8, 9, 16-19) Jesus and Paul both taught that the day (literal day) of our deliverance (rapture) would be the day God's wrath begins to fall upon the wicked (those who will have been persecuting us and Israel). Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Paul clearly associates the catching up of the church (our gathering together unto Christ) with Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence). 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Jesus also fixes His coming to the gathering of His elect to him by the angels, which is how the rapture will happen. Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Iamlamad, it is true that light dispels darkness and truth exposes error. So, I can see how the truth of the pre-wrath rapture as presented by Christ and the Apostles does great damage to the pernicious teaching of pretribulationism. Your beef is with them, not me, because all I do communicate what they have said. I'm beginning to think that your only purpose here is to muddy the water, to prevent others from seeing the clear, simple, and consistent teaching of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. I encourage all who read these posts to consider Paul's words 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Iamlamad, I'm going to be here to let the light of truth shine every time you attempt to pull closed the shades. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Let Jesus be praised

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Unlike pretribulationism, no shoehorn is necessary to when teaching the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture. It is the apostolic doctrine of Christ's singular second coming (parousia) for His church (elect) and to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. The prophets, Jesus, and the apostles all say the same thing. It is false teaching which complicates the singular message of the Holy Scriptures concerning Christ's return. The church will only have complete rest from persecution when Jesus comes bringing vengeance upon our persecutors. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Iamlamad, it doesn't matter whether it is "is," "be," or "have been", they all indicate a condition that must be met before the day of Christ's arrival and our gathering unto Him can take place. The unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel (great tribulation) must happen first. This unprecedented persecution is initiated by the abomination of desolation when the man of sin shews himself to be God in the rebuilt temple and the persecution and deception results in the notable falling away. It's not that difficult. It is only complicated when trying to read pretribulationism into the text. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Iamlamad, we can all quote Paul when he says,"Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". You know very well that is not what I was referring to. I was referring to your doctrine of "the three churches" as quoted below. This is just one of a multitude of aberrant teachings that you promote. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, So have you abandoned your misguided "three churches" doctrine? Also, you should recognize that God has been working with the Jews from the days of the apostles. As you have quoted Paul above, He is presently provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles. We, (the Gentiles) having been graffed in among the believing Israelites (branches not broken off through unbelief) are now partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree. God has always been working with the Israelites. There has always been a believing remnant according to the election of grace. God was working with the nation when judgement fell upon them in 70 AD, He was working with them when they returned to the land and were again recognized as a nation. It is a foolish idea from the father of lies that God has cast away the Jews or that He is not working among them today. The difference today between them and their future state is due to their blindness and unbelief. That will be remedied when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in and Christ reveals Himself in the clouds for all the world to see. The truth is near, you are stumbling all around it. As they say, "if it were a snake it would have bitten you." Give all glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Now you have the doctrine of "the three churches". When will it end! Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Isralites). Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye (Gentile believers) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Eph 2:22 In whom ye (Gentile believers) also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Iamlamad, Paul explains the mystery of the Jew and Gentile in one body (the church) very well. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Let me state this as simply as possible: Paul tells the Thessalonians that they need not fear that the persecution that they were facing is the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) that precedes the coming of Christ. He tells them that the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time). Paul then mentions two conditions which must be met before the day of Christ can be near in time. He says the day of Christ which is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him shall not come until the apostasia (falling away or departure from the faith that Jesus said would take place ["many shall be offended" Matt 24:9-10] in association with the unprecedented persecution and great deception of the "great tribulation") and the revelation of the man of sin which happens when he sits in the rebuilt temple and demands to be worshipped as God initiating the unprecedented persecution of the elect (Matt 24:15). No, Iamlamad, the man of sin has not been revealed yet. There presently is no temple for him in which to sit and shew himself to be God. Daniel tells us that this takes place in the midst of the week. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I'm sorry Iamlamad, but I have to laugh at your attempts to take two rather self-explanatory statements of Paul and wrest them to teach something altogether different. It is just this type of foolishness that has led to so many sects, teaching all kinds of strange doctrines, among those who call themselves Christians. The doctrine of the "partial rest". Really? Or, the doctrine of "the apostasia means the rapture". You got to be kidding! There isn't a single example in all of Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used meaning a physical departure. In every known use of the word in the 6 centuries of Koine Greek, it always referred to a religious departure (falling away) or a political departure. There is no evidence that it was ever even once used to indicate a physical departure. However, you and many other pretribulationists are so desperate to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures that you will seemingly stoop to any level to convince others that you are correct. May the Lord have mercy and open the eyes of His people to recognize wresting of the Scriptures like this. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, It is generally true that pre-tribulationists fail to consider that their eschatological model is the one that makes blood bought martyrs of Jesus Christ recipients of God's wrath. In their exuberance to insist that the church will not experience tribulation, that is, not be around for the seventieth week, they have unwittingly become the chief proponents of God's wrath upon the saints. How horrible to promote such a teaching. What! You say that pre-tribulationists promote no such thing. But you do. You teach that God's wrath begins at the opening of the first seal, which places the martyred souls who are seen under the altar and their brethren which will also be killed as they were (5th seal) under God's wrath. These are the saints of the great tribulation. These are the last generation of the church who experience unprecedented persecution beginning in the middle of the week up until Christ arrives at His parousia to rescue those who are alive and remain. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The context of 1Thes 5:1 begins back in chapter 4 verse 13. It starts with comfort concerning the saints that have already died (those who sleep in Jesus). Paul reassures the Thessalonians that they (the sleeping saints) will not be left behind when Christ gathers His own unto Himself. In explanation, Paul provides many details concerning the arrival of Christ upon the day of the Lord. These details not only cover Christ's interaction with His saints on that day (resurrection and rapture), but also show the perils that will come upon those who are unbelievers when Christ's arrives at His coming (parousia). We must recognize that it is Christ's single future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) that Paul focuses upon. It involves our rescue and the beginning of His vengeance upon those who persecute us. 1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. The chapter division in this text is artificial and only serves to hide the obvious connection between chapter 4 and chapter 5. Verse 10 of chapter 5 is ample evidence of the relationship to those who are asleep in 4:13. Christ's arrival at His parousia initiates the day of the Lord and His wrath poured out therein. 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. Paul tells the church in Thessalonica that the day of the Lord will not catch the believing church unawares like a thief. It is only the unbelieving that will be caught suddenly, like a thief. We will not only know the times and seasons of the return of Christ, initiating the day of the Lord, but we are also promised to be spared (5:9) from that dreadful period of God's wrath poured out upon the earth-dwellers. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, there are at least three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals are not the wrath of God. 1) No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must say this because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word "before"), seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. Paul tells us that the day vengeance finally comes is the day of Christ's revelation when the church rests from being persecuted (thlipsis, trouble, tribulation). 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. At the opening of the fifth seal, Christ's vengeance has not yet fallen upon our persecutors. In fact, it is said that vengeance will not come until a little season involving more martyrdom. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. If vengeance upon the earth dwellers who persecute the saints unto death hasn't fallen at the opening of the fifth seal we most certainly know that God's wrath didn't begin at the first seal. 2) The cosmic sign which portends the arrival of the day of the Lord is seen by John at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that Joel said would come prior to the day of the Lord when the sixth seal is opened. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The day of the Lord, that is God's wrath executed in that day, cannot come until the cosmic sign takes place. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 3) There is no mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation until the earth dwellers seeing Jesus revealed with the holy angels begin to hide from the wrath that will fall later the same day upon them Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Twelve times the word wrath appears in the book of Revelation, referring to God's wrath. The first mention isn't at the opening of the first seal, it is at the opening of the sixth seal when the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will have been persecuting the saints to the death, realize the party is over because the day of the Lord has arrived. They had scoffed and mocked that there would ever be such a day of reckoning. However, after seeing in the clouds the arrival of the Christ in all His glory with the mighty angels they are hiding. The word wrath isn't mentioned until after the sixth seal is opened in which it is said that the day of His wrath is come. Knowing that the redeemed are not appointed unto God's wrath on the day of the Lord, the saints will be removed from the earth in the rapture before wrath begins to fall upon the earth dwellers later that day in the form of the first trumpet judgement. Revelation 7:9-17 records the results of the resurrection and rapture. There John sees us before the throne of God in Heaven. I pray that you recognise these simple truths. All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Jesus Christ, I have some worthwhile observations from my journey to eschatological truth. Daniel’s Seventieth Week is not equal to the Day of the LORD The use of the phrase “Tribulation Period” to refer to the seventieth week of Daniel has caused much confusion. While it is true that wars, famines, pestilence (Matt 24:6-7, Rev 6:1-6) will be on the increase after the seventieth week begins, there is no mention of any uniqueness of the conditions present upon the earth until Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7-12) and the Antichrist begins to persecute Israel (Rev 12:13) and the elect (Matt 24:21-22) both of which take place 3½ years into the seven-year period. By calling the seventieth week “The Tribulation” it has morphed into the unparalleled period which the prophets called the “Day of the LORD.” Most pre-tribbers view the Day of the LORD as beginning when “the prince that shall come” confirms the covenant with many (Israel) initiating the last seven years of this age (Daniel 9:27). It is true that the confirmation of a covenant by the Antichrist shall begin the seventieth week, but with absolute certainty, I can say that the Day of the LORD does not begin at that time. When does the Day of the LORD begin? The Day of the LORD is spoken of all throughout the Scriptures, in fact, more than any other event. It is the day of God’s fierce wrath. I do not believe there is any debate at all concerning this fact, because it is spoken of so often. It truly is the day of God’s wrath. All the debate centres around when it begins and how long it lasts. For me, the timing of the Day of the LORD was the most important thing to grasp in determining the position of the rapture in relation to the events of the seventieth week. You see like many other pre-trib teachers I had concluded, without all due scholarship mind you, that the Day of the LORD began when the seventieth week began. This was accomplished with some circular reasoning that went like this: The Day of the Lord is a day of God’s wrath. In a future time, God’s wrath will be poured out upon the Earth. As Jesus opens the seals in Revelation 6, John sees war, famine, pestilence, and death. Since the death appears to come to one-quarter of the earth; this must be God’s wrath. So, the Day of the LORD must start at the beginning of the seven years because that's when the seals begin to be opened by Jesus Himself. That all seems logical and straightforward especially when one is trying to read the pre-trib position into the text. The bad thing is that the Scriptures plainly tell us when the day of the LORD begins and no amount of deduction, whether circular or not, is necessary. The Day of the LORD is preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark Joel tells us of a unique celestial or cosmic event that serves to indicate that the Day of the LORD is impending, meaning its arrival is at hand. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. The eschatological Day of the LORD is associated with the sun, moon, and stars going dark. Peter even quotes Joel: Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: These celestial signs are prominent in many of the passages detailing this future day. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Notice how Jesus uses these celestial markers to signal His return to gather his elect and make war upon the unbelieving world. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. John also sees and describes this sign after the opening of the sixth seal. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Notice that Jesus said the sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark comes “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matt 24:29). The tribulation in context are those of the “great tribulation” (Matt 24:21). Let Jesus be praised.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, thanks for your response. I have a question: If in Matt 24:15 Jesus is not referring to Daniel 9:27 than to what statement in Daniel is He referring to. Also in Daniel 9:27, where the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst of the heptad (seven years) providing ~ 3.5 years remaining in the week, there is a correlation to the seven mentions of such a period in the books of Daniel and Revelation. Let Jesus be praised.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, you are correct that "The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14." You are also correct that the 144,000 remain upon the earth, having received the seal of God in their foreheads. The seal guarantees their protection from the salvo's of God's wrath as seen in Rev 9:4. However, nothing is said about the 144,000 leading anyone, rather they follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Concerning the worship of the Beast. Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. The Beast is the man that receives the worship (it is the number of a man). The one being revealed in the temple is the one receiving the worship, he exalts himself above all that is worshipped. 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this associates the abominations which make desolate with the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, How do the following verses fit in with the timing of the glorification of OT saints? Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Please notice glorified is past tense. Does not this mean that Paul was referring to the faithfulness of God to the OT saints to work things out for good. An example of such would be Joseph. An observation that I've made concerning the two witnesses is that their ministry (Rev 11:3-14) and the ministry of Elijah (Mal 4:5-6), who should come before the day of the Lord, are not the same. It is still possible that one of the two witnesses is Elijah and the ministries are combined, but I have my doubts. The choice of Enoch and Elijah as the witnesses due to the fact that they were taken and didn't physicaly die and therefore must die in the future because "it is appointed unto men once to die" is faulty logic. There will be many who pass into glory without having gone through physical death. Those that are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord will not taste death, however, they will be changed and raptured. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Clif, have you noticed what is in common between these three passages? Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. To whom do these three passages refer to? To us. Concerning the 24 elders, whoever they may be, they cannot be the church, for we are gathered to Christ at His parousia which cannot come until the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal takes place. The parousia ends the unprecedented persecution. Parousia is more than approaching, it is an arrival and continuing presence. There is only one coming (parousia) of Christ in the future, His second (Heb 9:28). Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Looking for the blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, Pastor Conley

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, You are still confused. Read it all again. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, here are three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals is not the wrath of God. 1) No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must explain the word "before" because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word), seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. So, at the opening of the 5th seal, God's wrath upon the persecutors of the saints is yet a little season away. At Christ's coming God's fierce wrath is going to fall upon the earth dwellers who will have been persecuting the church. Paul makes this truth clear when he encourages the persecuted Thessalonians. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. When Christ arrives the tables will be turned. Those who had been busy persecuting (thlipsis) us who are Christ's, will be tribulated by God with the judgements of the day of the Lord. The vengeance that they were crying out for will be realized on that day. That is consistent with Christ's teaching that the day of our rescue will be the day that He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. God's wrath will not fall until we are rescued. Those under the altar are told that before God will avenge them more of their brethren must die as martyrs. We see in Rev 6:9-11 reference to both the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) suffered by the elect (the martyrs) and the wrath of God (vengeance) in the day of the Lord. 2) The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign John sees at the opening of the sixth seal The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. In fact, God's eschatological wrath is the primary theme of the day of the Lord. It is important to realize that God's wrath or vengeance falls in the day of the Lord. The beginning of the day of the Lord is the period of Christ's eschatological wrath. God's wrath and the day of the Lord are synonymous with each other. How does this let us know that what John sees at the opening of the first six seals is not God's wrath? God's wrath cannot fall upon the wicked until the day of the Lord begins. The Scriptures are very explicit concerning when the day of the Lord begins. There are a number of things that are said must take place before the day of the Lord can come. We only need look at one of them to conclude that the seals are not the wrath of God. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joel's prophecy says that an easily identifiable cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord. We know that the word "before" is referring to before in the sense of time, not location, because when Peter quotes Joel as recorded in Greek by Luke the word prin is used which never means "in the face of". Prin means prior to. Prior to the day of the Lord, the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of must take place. It just so happens that John sees that very sign when the 6th seal is opened. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The day of the Lord cannot begin until after the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. Therefore, what John sees at the opening of the first 6 seals are not God's wrath. 3) The first mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation is after the sixth seal is opened It doesn't take a doctorate in any Biblical discipline to see that the wrath of God cannot fall until after the sixth seal is opened. In fact, it is later the very same day that the first trumpet is blown and the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall. But praise be unto Jesus that we are not appointed unto wrath, for we shall be raptured first. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Jesus doesn't say that it must come after the abomination of desolation, He says that "then" shall be great tribulation. The abomination of desolation, that Daniel says happens in the midst of the week, begins the unprecedented persecution. There is no time between the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation. Jesus says when you see it go hide in the mountains, don't even take time to pack. The abomination of desolation is not a precursor to great tribulation it is the initiating event of great tribulation. You have things a little confused. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Williaml, Daniel and John both tell us that the beast makes war against the saints, he is the proxy for the dragon whose wrath is unleashed in the middle of the week. The Beast is the one that worship is directed toward, therefore, he is the one who stands in the temple shewing himself to be God thereby defiling it. It is the mark of the beast that the world must receive or be slain. You are wrong to assume that Apollyon is the Beast. The Beast and the man of sin are one and the same. The elect are the ones suffering great thlipsis (tribulation, persecution) up until the day that Christ appears (Matt 24:21, 22, 29-31). This great thlipsis is unprecedented persecution, that is, unparalleled violence against the church (elect) and Israel (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1; Matt 24:9, 21-22; Rev 12:17). There is no time in the Bible called "The Tribulation". The followers of Christ (worshippers of the true God) face tribulation today and have from the days of Abel. However, right prior to Christ's return the persecution of believers will become unprecedented in scope and severity. Jesus called this increased persecution "great tribulation". Jesus said that to save some of the elect alive He would cut that persecution short. He does this by coming and rescuing those who are alive and remain before the Beast can behead every last one of us. This rescue (deliverance) we know as the resurrection and rapture. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, many can call themselves pre-wrath, but believe different than that which was originally presented as tenants of that system. Just as there are literally hundreds of variations on that which is called pre-tribulationism and dozens on that which is called post-tribulationism, so also there are many variations of the pre-wrath model. However, to say that you believe in the "pre-wrath" model of the rapture of the church you must ascribe to the tenants that I have posted. Otherwise, you have come up with your own model for the timing of the rapture and the title "Pre-wrath" has already been taken. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, iamlama, could you please tell me when you think the great tribulation begins in relation to other eschatological events? Also, you succinctly define the period called great tribulation? Please note that I'm not interested in your opinions, please provide clear and explicit Scriptural justifiction for your understanding of these things. Thanks. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, You are correct, the day of the Lord does begin at the rapture. You are incorrect in thinking that the rapture happens before the sixth seal is opened. It happens at Christ's parousia, when He reveals Himself to all the world, following the cosmic sign and great earthquake that John witnesses at the opening of the sixth seal. Hallelujah