JoeChan82

I always try to keep it simple and try not to get too technical. When I compare 2Thes2:1-9 with Daniel and Jesus I see a man and a temple. I believe that the temple will be built early in Daniel's 70th week and I see the "man of sin" going into the holy of holies and declaring himself to be God. These verses seem to compliment each other very well. Nothing in past history fulfills these verses completely, so I think they are yet future, not only to Daniel, Jesus, and Paul, but to us as well. No theory is without its own problems, but I'm happy with this one. Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I was reading some of the prophecy debates on this forum. Diaste asked the question, that if we are not appointed to wrath, and all of Daniel's 70th week is wrath, then why are the people saved after the pretribulation rapture appointed to wrath? No matter how many times Diaste clarified or rephrased this question, he could not get an answer. In this club at least, I believe that we know that Daniel's 70th week contains both tribulation and wrath and not wrath exclusively. During the course of the discussion, someone pointed out that the wrath of God begins at the sixth seal. Here is the proof text used: Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? My question is this, are we all settled on the 6th seal as the beginning of wrath? I am not, for the following reasons: 1.) It is the group in these verses declaring the wrath. The enemies of God know they are facing the wrath of the Lamb. They see it coming, like people stuck in a car stuck on the railroad tracks when they hear the see the train coming. The train has not hit them yet, but they know it is inevitable. This isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my point I'm sure. 2.) Revelation 11:14-19 when the 7th angel sounded, the 24 elders declare "because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." I see heaven making the declaration of God's wrath here, not in chapter 6. 3.) For me 1Cor 15:51-52 seems to naturally fit in with the 7th trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. I would love to get some input from you guys on this. I can guess what some of your answers will be based on what I've seen in the prophecy discussions, but here I won't have to filter out the pre-trib replies that always muddy the waters. Thank you in advance.

Yes, exactly.

I know that. I was just saying that I have no problem with criticism, especially from the group in this club. I am open to almost anything except outright denial of plain scriptures. It is clear to me that many here have done a lot of research, which I am very slow to discount.

Good stuff, Da Puppers. Even though I had never considered the length of the millennial reign to be anything other than 1,000 years, I think your idea of 490+490= 980+20=1,000 years of Christ's earthly ministry has some real merit. Christ only read the first part of Isaiah 61:1-3 and then closed the book. Surely all of Isaiah 61 is Messianic, but vs 3 is future. Why not include those 20 years in the Messiah's reign? Luke 4:17-20 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

What do you mean by "outside of a seven year etc."? Do you mean after the 7 years or besides the 7 years? Unless one of you shows me otherwise, I think the treaty in Daniel 9 precedes and facilitates the beginning of the temple rebuild. During this time Christians will experience persecution. Then the desecration of the temple causes great persecution and the signs in the sun, moon, and stars will be unmistakable as well as the identity of the antichrist. In short, I'm looking for the treaty with Israel. All right you guys, shred my position. ? I can take it.

Thanks for taking the time. Yes, that makes perfect sense to me. I knew that those who use lunar based calendars had to add an extra month to their year every so often to make up for the difference of 365.25 and 360, but I never even thought about how they tried to figure out when the first month of the year began. That was very helpful.

After reading all the work you have done on this subject, I might not understand your comment on the scripture on the timing of the Passover. It is always the 14th day of the first month, unless you were defiled by reason of war, then you could take it on the 14th day of the second month. Did I miss your point there?

After reading a lot of articles and books on this topic (the Bible reading goes without saying) there are a couple of things I've seen. No expert agrees with the other experts concerning timing. There were at three phases of the Babylonian captivity. You tell me where to start the 70 year countdown, because I don't know. There are quite a few theories about who exactly and when exactly this decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was made. A couple of things are pretty clear to me though, the restoration of Jerusalem in Nehemiah is not the same thing as the restoration of the temple in Ezra. I'm fairly certain that there were a few guys called Darius the Mede. He had a son and a grandson. Sometimes these names are more like titles than names. I don't think there is such a person as Darius the Persian. I checked out the claims made by William earlier in this post and he was right that somebody used calendar conversions to disprove the dates in Anderson's The Coming Prince, but without the benefit of computer programs etc., Anderson wrote a great book. I think the differences in dates are pretty small. The scholarship on the identity of the kings involved is pretty cool.

Looks like I reacted to the post before mine, so wrong thread for me too. Sorry.

Romans 9:6-8 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. I have no problems discerning between Israel as a nation and the church, but what I also see is a clear division between ethnic Jews and believing Jews. (Maybe I should call them Israelites instead of Jews.) I think faith and salvation is the dividing line. Back in the days of the New England Congregationalist there was a problem between the universalists and the trinitarians. The universalists would infiltrate and then take over the local church body. A trinitarian commented, "They may have kept the furniture, but we kept the faith". In like fashion, the ethnic Israelites have kept the nation, but the Israelites who trust in Christ as the Messiah have kept the faith. I believe that the Gentiles have become fellow heirs with them. Eventually we (Believing Israelites and Gentiles) will inherit the nation and kingdom.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. This is a reference to Jeremiah 29 esp 29:10. Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. If you compare Jeremiah 29 to Daniel's long prayer in Daniel 9, it is clear that Daniel was praying about the things Jeremiah had written. The current captivity was what concerned Daniel, so I think that Gabriel's message to him has a primary fulfillment to the 70 years in Babylonian captivity. How does that fit in with my futurist beliefs?

You are right on the money here. Whether we meet Him at our resurrection or the time of our own death, the purpose of this hope is very clear. I am growing more than a little weary reading about which books or passages pertain to Israel, the church, the elect, or the saints. Trouble is already here in other parts of the world, we'd be fools to think America is too good for that. Mark 13:35-37 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. 1 John 3:1-3 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 1 Peter 1:13-16 ¶ Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I'll check it out. Thanks.

I hope I am not flogging a dead horse here, but let me print an excerpt of The Coming Prince, which begins to address this very issue. This is only a small part of the explanation offered by Anderson. Certain writers, both Christian and Jewish, have assumed that the seventy weeks began in the first year of Darius, the date of the prophecy itself; and thus falling into hopeless error at the very threshold of the inquiry, all their conclusions are necessarily erroneous. The words of the angel are unequivocal: "From the issuing of the decree to restore and build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks." That Jerusalem was in fact rebuilt as a fortified city, is absolutely certain and undoubted; and the only question in the matter is whether history records the edict for its restoration. When we turn to the book of Ezra, three several decrees of Persian kings claim notice. The opening verses speak of that strange edict by which Cyrus authorized the building of the temple. But here "the house of the Lord God of Israel" is specified with such an exclusive definiteness that it can in no way satisfy the words of Daniel. Indeed the date of that decree affords conclusive proof that it was not the beginning of the seventy weeks. Seventy years was the appointed duration of the servitude to Babylon. (Jer 27:6-17; 28:10; 29:10) But another judgment of seventy years' " desolations " was decreed in Zedekiah's reign,8 because of continued disobedience and rebellion. As an interval of seventeen years elapsed between the date of the servitude and the epoch of the "desolations," so by seventeen years the second period overlapped the first. The servitude ended with the decree of Cyrus. The desolations continued till the second year of Darius Hystaspes.9 And it was the era of the desolations , and not of the servitude which Daniel had in view.

Now I am going to have to read it again. I want to say yes, but I really need to get back on this. Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. I am part way through the book right now. In light of things you have said previously about Rome not being the iron kingdom, you might have to overlook some of his conclusions in this area. That being said, it doesn't damage the main thrust of the book.

I hope I am not adding confusion to an already complicated topic, but I believe that prophecy often contains a local more immediate application as well as a future application. In this case of the 70 years, Daniel 9 may include both. Daniel 9:1-4 ¶ In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 4 ¶ And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; It seems to me that Daniel's primary concern was the Babylonian captivity then the present reality for him. Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. Maybe some of the timing in Daniel 9 was immediate while some is future.

Sir Robert Anderson wrote several very interesting books; The Coming Prince - In this book the timing of Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. to the actual physical appearance of Christ. (First Advent) Chapter 2 - Daniel and his times Chapter 6 - Prophetic years

This may be slightly off topic, but Sir Robert Anderson wrote an excellent book called The Coming Prince. If you have a bible program on your computer, it might be included in it. In this book, Sir Robert proves the timing between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah (First Advent) to the day. It is well worth the read.

That is one of the single scariest thing someone can say to me. The other is a direct claim of revelation. How in the world do you answer someone who says, "God told me and now I tell you"?

My wife has other ideas. What does she know? BTW We have made it 35 years. Proverbs 21:19 ¶ It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

I believe that what you say here is true. If there a rapture before the 7 years, great. If there is not, it will be time to rethink some things. There are a lot of people who never did any research on the subject that are going to panic either way. I want to be prepared to help the folks who panic, so I post, read the Bible, and listen to opposing views. When the time comes, we'll be fighting side by side instead of doing this. Titus 2:11-14 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Revelation 16:12-16 ¶ And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

These verses seem plain to me. I don't know how to else to explain them. Revelation 21:9-10 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Paul and probably David too. SkyWriting has his feet planted firmly in the air. Psalm 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?