Jostler

I hope you'll stick with me as long as this will take I suspect your post is a good example of something that dawned on me (revelation? I personally believe it was.) One problem I think we have in general with modern eschatology is that almost every modern scholar of it has fallen into two traps. One is to very innocently forget that the Book of Revelation is a revelation of JESUS CHRIST, not a Revelation of the beast or the tribulation...etc. The result has been generation of fear of the beast and the tribulation...etc. He did not give us a spirit of fear. The second subtle perspective error has been to analyze events pretty much right up to the end of Chapter 19, where Jesus comes riding down the sky, the beast and the false prophet are captured, thrown alive into the Lake of Fire and satan is bound....and then stop. Completely overlooking the Millennial Reign, and the events immediately following the Millennium. Just about every eschatology teacher I've ever listened to has done both of those things. Lets test a couple things: Lets consider the possibility Jesus was being VERY literal. Are Jesus' return and the "last day" really synonymous? What if Jesus literally meant a day in which the sun rises, but does not go back down, or goes down and does not rise again? What if THAT is the "day" He is speaking of? Does the Bible indicate when such a day will occur? It does. And it was even alluded to as a very long term promise all the way back in Genesis: I would encourage you to take a look at the context. In short, this is God's response to the "pleasing aroma" of Noah's first sacrifice after the Ark had landed and the animals were released to repopulate the earth. So the context is the first destruction of the earth by water. We know there will be one more utter destruction of the earth and that one will be by fire. Now by implication, God appears to be promising that natural processes will continue, seasonally, "while the earth remains". By implication and by further revelation as the Bible was completed down through the ages, we know there is a "day" when the earth will no longer remain, and this promise will have run its course. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I assumed when you referred to Jesus' return, you were referring to that event I mentioned before. Where in Chapter 19, just after the Tribulation, Jesus comes riding down with the armies of heaven and decimates the armies of the Anti-Christ. Is this event truly the end of satan's influence over mankind? Here is where overlooking the details of the Millennium has left us with less than a whole picture. ie: Again, I beg your patience with me This is laying a foundation and I promise when we begin to draw the pieces together they really DO form a coherent whole with no effort on our part, but we gotta introduce the pieces The context of the above passage is a time cue. We can rest assured the capturing of satan and chaining him in the abyss is an event that occurs very near, but just after Jesus returns bodily to the earth and sets up His eternal Kingdom. I fully agree with the second half of the last sentence I quoted of yours. That seems clear to me to be the final "coming" of the KINGDOM, and it will never be overthrown or defeated from that day. He will reign FOREVER from that day. BUT, and its a big but, the EARTH is not so durable. This earth in which He initially sets up His final reign WILL be destroyed....and remade. And, as we shall see, His reign may not endd, BUT IT WILL BE CONTESTED....one final time. This is what we overlook (one of the things) when we fail to take into account the details of the Millennium and incorporate them into the larger picture: How many have heard this final rebellion expounded upon? And yet its there. It simply gobsmacks me to think that after 1000 years of completely righteous rule, with NO corruption in government and no war, living in what is likely to be a tamed, Eden like earth.....there WILL be a rebellion against His rule? And by MANY! Not just a few. Blows my mind, but whoop! There it is in black and white. With all this in view, can we really still say that Jesus' return in Chapter 19 is the "last day"? I'm going to stop here and see if you have any questions or if I misunderstood your meaning to this point. There are many more data points we need to still draw in, for a picture of the whole, but can you consider the *possibility* that the "last day" truly is a day in which the sun ceases to run its course? If you can simply consider the possibility, we can go on to the further Scriptures we need to look at for confirmation or refutation. Something else that we need to address is the nature of the population during the Millennium. Failure to take that and analyze it in detail has also resulted in many false assumptions that evaporate when we do. On that topic, please note that the population is capable of rebelling against the King of all Creation. That logically demands that they are "Sons of Adam" in the sense that they are still in possession of a fallen flesh nature, which demands the understanding that they do not have resurrection bodies which are incapable of sin. That also demands that we understand they are STILL subject to death because it is appointed unto man "once to die" and then comes judgement. I alluded to a lot there, but we can dig up the actual verses if necessary. Once again, I beg your patience. There are quite a few moving parts we have to draw in here, but we're making progress

I asked a (rhetorical) question of a single verse as part of establishing a foundation. This is not difficult friend, either the obvious answer to the rhetorical question asked of this ONE verse is accurate, or it's flawed. If it's flawed then please expound on the flaw. You may rest assured I am aware of the necessity of integrating the 'whole counsel' of the Word when working with anything of any spiritual significance and God willing I will bring in all those other applicable verses, line upon line and precept upon precept.

I have to agree, but I am missing how this relates to what I posted?

What if all of the most popular "rapture" theories have significant flaws? Let me throw this in the mix The "last day". And just in case we missed it, He reiterates it just two verses later: And, just in case we missed that too, He says it again four verses later: It is incredibly rare for Jesus to hammer a point home with a triple tap, do you think maybe He wants us to "get" this? Three times in the same conversation, bam, bam, bam. But wait! There's more! If you can take time to read the whole context out of which I excerpted the above verses, you'll find Jesus in a synagogue, speaking publicly and He seals up the public portion of the passage with a FOURTH iteration: Shortly after He said this, the text switches to recording a more private conversation between Jesus and His disciples. This was the sermon that cost Jesus a lot of followers and caused even the disciples no small amount of confusion. But, if we can figure out when the "last day" is, we got this resurrection thingy NAILED....IN Jesus' own words. Don't we? When is the last day? I assure you the Bible is very clear on that, and if you use that as your beginning, all these controversial scriptures with so many interpretations just fall into a coherent whole with no effort. love you guys

Rev 2:9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Jesus warned us that there were those who claimed to be Jews back in the day John wrote Revelation. Their numbers have not diminished since that warning was issued.

The beginning of salvation is not by works. Being born again is a gift, wholly worked by the Holy Spirit and only received by the believer. I agree with the characterization of suicide as self-murder...it is murder...taking a life that does not belong to you. We were bought with a price. But, what cannot be won by works cannot be lost by them either. If a born again believer in Jesus should fall into such a deep deception as to take his own life I am fully convinced his salvation is secure. But man I'd hate to come face to face with Jesus when my last physical act was murder. I honestly believe it would be impossible for us to righteously judge any suicide. The levels of deception involved and how someone got tricked into accepting the lies are simply not knowable by us and only God will be able to take the whole situation into account when passing judgement on that sin. I suspect we will all grieve a little when we get home and see all the rewards that were set apart for us had we just walked out the appointed path instead of going our own way. That may well be the source of the tears Father has to dry in heaven. I do think suicide will have consequences, but loss of salvation will not be one of them. The loss of unearned rewards a full life of service could have accumulated for eternity will likely be felt quite keenly. The suicide who never knew Jesus at all has been tricked into sealing his eternal fate - sad indeed.

I'd suggest someone truly interested in this topic do some real digging. The Word provides more insight into this than you may currently know. There are different degrees of engagement with the "kingdom" clearly portrayed and not all will engage the level of inheritance though they truly be saved by grace. You must be born again to SEE the Kingdom. We can call that level 1. But the Bible also talks about "entering" and "inheriting". Levels 2 and 3. Entry to those levels of interaction with the Kingdom are based on faithfulness. You'll find a group of threes if you begin to look, and they're interrelated. Called, chosen and faithful is one. Not all who are called, respond in ways that allow Him to choose them. Not all who are chosen remain faithful to the end. The greatest rewards are reserved for those who are chosen and faithful to that calling. Some will be born again, preserved from the fire and live in the eternal, sinless bliss of His restored creation, but will not be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem. (See Revelation 22:14-15) Hebrews 6 gives a list of FUNDAMENTAL concepts we must master as our foundation....from which we begin growing to maturity. Understanding "eternal judgement" is one of the fundamental concepts and it's one the modern, western church has largely failed to master. 6 FUNDAMENTAL doctrines which are indicated to be necessary before we can move on to maturity. Can you name/describe the different baptisms? Resurrection of the dead is a topic that garners more confusion and bickering among us yet the Bible is pretty clear on the subject. It's fundamental And eternal judgement is MUCH more varied, detailed and diverse than most commonly understand.

Something to consider. I think we're missing something important when we frame *anything* up as "blacks do (did) this...." "Whites do (did) that...". There is ONE place where race distinctions truly get wiped out and we're standing in it. It's at the foot of the cross, where red is the only color that matters and was shed for all colors, UNDENIABLY granting equal value to every race and nationality. People do (did) this or that because they're wittingly or not following the wrong god and in need of the Saviour. Not because of their color or ethnic group.