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Jostler

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Jostler last won the day on March 3

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About Jostler

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  1. Whose family were we born into? To whom did we belong before He gave us rebirth, adoption and salvation? If God hated as you imply, how did any of us get saved?
  2. Jostler

    Its All Yours.

    I see the exact same problem with the whole prosperity/poverty extremism as you seem to. Reacting to the greed by trying use the Bible to prove prosperity doesn't mean what it means may be well intentioned, but it's still a lie. Rather than claim prosperity doesn't mean what it means, we do better to find out what the Biblical perspective really is. The problem is it doesn't ONLY refer to physical wealth and blessing. It's a very broadly applied word and includes "prospering" in almost any realm you can imagine. Health, emotional stability and joy, fullness of life in Him. Focusing on material wealth as if the word is exclusively referring to that, when material wealth is such a tiny (and relatively unimportant) element is how the extreme falls off into greed and mammon worship wrapped up in pretty religious bows. And as you pointed out equating poverty with holiness is just as much an extreme and just as false. I don't have any idea what mistranslation you're referring to. Gaius name is in verse 1 and even if it wasn't I don't see how it would materially affect the meaning of the verse? I come from that WOF background and i know I had to be corrected on a number of things i picked up in the midst of it. I think the most sobering thing was the realization that the misunderstanding of faith had turned that whole material wealth prosperity scene into a christianized exercise of literal witchcraft. i dunno if you can call idolatry worse than witchcraft or vice versa, but both are serious and both are problems needing addressing.
  3. Jostler

    Its All Yours.

    totally missed the point. Taking up a whole raft of text from the Bible and then using it to "prove" the Bible doesn't really mean what it actually says in another place, never has been and never will be a winning strategy. It's much better to just seek to understand what the Bible actually does say. Reacting to extremism by trying to make the Word negate itself isn't the way He goes about things.
  4. well I could put together some for sure. I can at least share the Scriptures He's taught me out of so far. Lots of the information about the Millennium comes through the OT prophets. Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about it. Let me dig up and organize some Scriptures. I think the first thing that happened for me as He began to open this up was just recognizing how little I really did know. One of the first things I started wrestling with came after the realization that all the eschatology I "knew" pretty much ran out to then end of Revelation 19 and just stopped. It had to do with these two verses: There Jesus is speaking (I believe of the Great Tribulation period) and we can draw some inferences from what He says there. It sounds like He's painting a rather dire picture of a time so devastating that if He didn't intervene, not one single life on earth would survive. But obviously He does choose to intervene and some do survive, however small that remnant may turn out to be. That leaves us to infer that there are some who live, in this fallen flesh, right up to the time of His return and continue on into the Millennial Reign. It seems safe to assume these overcoming survivors will be who repopulates the earth after all the destruction of the Great Tribulation. Then there's this: At the very same time, the "end of the age" closed out by His arrival on earth, and the beginning of the Millennial Reign we see this group too, who were dead, but are now resurrected to "rule and reign" with Him, not forever, but for a specified 1000 year period. So, conclusion number one I came to was the understanding that this is something unique in human history. And something I've never heard taught anywhere before. But the only conclusion I can draw from this is the fact that for the first time since Jesus ascended, there are two "classes" of human beings living on the earth at the same time. One "class" includes people as we are now. "Sons of Adam" in that they are still in flesh and blood bodies subject to the fallen nature, death and decay. But there's also a "class" who are "as He is" raised and now in possession of resurrected bodies. Perfect and incorruptible. In this thousand year period these are a "ruling class" who rule and reign with Him, while the ones who remain as we now are go on to repopulate the earth and fill it. Isaiah and Ezekiel have a lot to say about what life will be like for these and what the earth will be like during that thousand years. Thats a hasty effort to lay out a beginning I hope it made sense so far. I'll try to gather up a few more specific references from the OT and post them here later. Just that bit I did open up with those two verses touches on a whole range of things that immediately come into view, like: "If there's no rapture, then just what is this "gathering"? There's an answer, but it takes a good bit of drawing in other references to reveal it.
  5. There's a lot the Bible has to say about the Millennial Reign. If one person is encouraged to get in His presence and ask Him to reveal it and then make the topic a study priority I think it's a worthwhile thing. There's a LOT to be understood and goes a lot deeper than guessing/postulating. It isn't something I could have studied apart from DIRECT guidance as to which places to go in the Word. I'd never have been able to guess if left on my own And boy does all the "traditional theology" surrounding all the rapture controversies get in the way of even seeing it, much less understanding it. He had to purge me of all that before He could even begin showing me the Millennium.
  6. Jostler

    Its All Yours.

    There's a baby in that bathwater and throwing it out altogether is misrepresenting His Word just as surely as taking it to the extremes the WOF "prosperity gospel" is guilty of.
  7. Is it possible we're still tripping over the same mistake most of the Jews made when misunderstanding the purpose of His first advent? "Overcoming" definitely MUST include refusing the mark at a time when doing so will cost us our heads. But my questions, is "overcoming" LIMITED to that? And here's what I'm alluding to. There is yet ANOTHER rebellion to come AFTER the one He defeats at His second coming. It's at the end of the Millennium and once again in human history, men will have to choose to whom their loyalty will go. Are those Millennial saints ALSO held responsible for "overcoming" in their day? To me it's obvious that they must. To be deceived into aligning with the rebels would be a failure to overcome just as surely as it will be in the days of the beast and the mark. Our typical lack of including understanding the nature and situation extant in the Millennial Reign as part of our overall picture of His complete plan of restoration leaves us open to the same type of mistakes the Jews made when trying to understand Jesus and His mission during the first advent. They were mistaken in assuming the "messiah" they were expecting was going to be a conquering King come to restore Israel and Jerusalem to their rightful place as the head of all nations. That wasn't WRONG....but it was misplaced in time. They had plenty of prophecy to prove the messiah will do all that. But they overlooked....deprioritized the importance of all those prophecies that spoke of a suffering/dying servant. The idea of a conquering King was just too attractive. I'll risk the ire of many by saying it's the same "attractiveness" that inspires such vigorous defense of the idea He plans to take us out of here before anything really bad happens. And it has the same result. It blinds to the reality of His real plan...which is that His own remain engaged with this earth in that season, partnering with Him as He works through them to wrest the kingdom of darkness out of the hands of satan and his minions. i have no clue if that will communicate well or not But it's a beginning if any can just begin to question how much they really understand about the Millennial Reign, it's purpose in God's larger plan to "restore all things" and just what the nature and situation of the people who live in that age really is. In light of that more complete picture a lot of things begin to become visible, understandable and quite astonishing compared to typical western theological "tradition" (and that's all it is). We're no different and just as guilty of His charge against the Scribes and Pharisees of His day. He accused them of forging "traditions of men" and supplanting the very Word of God by their traditions. I don't have a problem understanding the Bible is speaking to the necessity of "overcoming" at both of those times in human history...and in fact throughout ALL of human history.
  8. All I can do is go back to the fact I can't see your assertions about death or the resurrections portrayed in Scripture at all. AFAIK the two resurrections are clearly defined so unambiguously as to be unmistakable. Spiritual death and physical death are just as clearly explained. We are seeing two completely different things and the two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. I knew few would read that long post I was asking Him why I even felt led to write it. I have to assume someone, somewhere at some time will derive some benefit from it. You zeroed in on the very least relevant part of that whole thing and brought it up as if that were the main point? I dunno why but it's pretty obvious to me we're still talking past each other and no real communication is happening at all. I trust it's all in His hands.
  9. Is it even possible for a born again spirit to be unhealthy in the slightest degree? Are we even asking the right question? Is HE unhealthy?
  10. I think this is an excellent example of why so many of our eschatalogical discussions have to end (in this format at least) without much in the way of satisfying results. We all, every last one of us (me included) bring to the table a whole paradigm of "understanding" it took us years to develop. Somewhere back in the process of building that paradigm we've all been forced to make some assumptions. If any one of those assumptions, from either side of a viewpoint is less than wholly Scripture, and/or less than perfectly understood, then a measure of confusion gets introduced. And of course nobody that loves the Lord ever does that intentionally . We do the best we know how to do with a limited mind, peering through a dark glass and trying to understand what we see. Thankfully the basics that determine our ultimate destination are clear and understandable enough for a five year old to grasp. There are a number of things that affect this and one is the fact that God did not provide allll the prophecies in Scripture for the purpose of informing us with 100% certainty and clarity exactly what the future holds. We have an enemy, and He's a good Commander. He gives us enough, what we need to know to be "in position", where we should be and properly armed and supplied to do the job He's assigned to us during OUR appointed time on this battlefield. But He doesn't give enough revelation of His plans for the enemy to be able to piece it all together and set counterplans in motion to thwart Him. And in fact His wisdom is such that, over and over, the enemy's moves actually end up accomplishing HIS purposes and advancing HIS plans. This will be found to the praise of His wisdom for all eternity. Satan's greatest challenges and moves he thought would be massively devastating blows to God's rule consistently end up being turned into satan's greatest defeats. The Cross is probably the central and primary example, but satan's challenges of God's covenant with Abraham, his assault on Job, even the whole Genesis 6 issue have all backfired, horrifically. But satan would never have crucified the King of Glory had he properly understood the real consequences of Jesus' death. Why did "they" not understand? It's because this "wisdom" was hidden from them in a mystery. And it was hidden from men too....not hidden from us but hidden in Him FOR us. This mystery of "Christ in you" was NOT understood by man or satan until after the fact. Why? Because every prophecy that alluded to it was scattered all over the OT in such a way nobody could begin to put the pieces together into a full picture until AFTER THE FACT. The Scribes and Pharisees....keepers of the precious trust of the Word of God, had enough to go on to identify WHO Jesus was (and did so, and rejected Him anyway) even they didn't understand the details of His working nor did they understand "Christ in you" was His plan and purpose in His first advent. Only with the benefit of HINDSIGHT can we see all that clearly in the Old Testament prophecies. Which makes me assume that not all prophecy is intended to inform us with 100% certainty exactly how the future will unfold. Over and over God holds up PROPHECY as HIS distinctive. He literally mocks diviners, soothsayers and mages that try to predict the future. It's mankind's surest proof of who He is and His perfect reliability. When thousands years of prophetic utterance comes together ....finally....in EXACTLY the way it was prophesied, we can then look allll the way back there and see God waving at us. "See? I'm here....all the way back here....I knew, I am Who I say I am and what I say comes to pass. Perfectly, every time. And you can fully trust everything else I've ever said that you don't fully comprehend yet. It will come to pass and when it does you'll understand." So, we make some of the mistakes those in Jesus' day made. Almost to a man, from the Sanhedrin to the simple farmer, had an expectation that Messiah would appear as a conquering King, come to restore Israel as the head of nations. And they missed, overlooked all the prophecies that pointed to the suffering servant, the pure Lamb who was slain. Didn't matter how clearly all that was portrayed in utterance or in Temple worship symbolism. It still got overlooked. We're going to find it's little different today. MUCH of what is vigorously defended today will be proven wrong in significant ways by unfolding events. But we still have a responsibility to keep TRYING to understand (and in some cases teach) accurately what He HAS revealed, and furthermore IS REVEALING. Daniel has a REALLY interesting thing to tell us about our day...the day we're living in. A great deal of 'end times' prophecy interpretation has run hard up against this truth right here. If we drag in a bit of the context, we see Daniel here in the presence of a heavenly messenger who has just given Daniel this incredible, sweeping view of the end times. It's a massive vision...a sweeping multilayered revelation across literally thousands of years of human history some of which are historical to us, some of which have seen partial fulfillments already, and some that won't be complete until the end of the Millennial Reign. But at the time the Daniel was just confused by it all. He couldn't make heads or tails of what he'd seen. So like any of us might have done he simply asked for some clarification. And the angel refused to provide it. He simply told Daniel in so many words "Just write it down, go about the rest of your life. This is not for you to understand. The Spirit has reserved understanding of this to a future people. NOBODY will understand this UNTIL...the time of the end" I am pretty sure that in days preceding now good, well meaning men of God have sought to understand things the Holy Spirit was simply not willing to reveal, and pushing beyond that, accidently got off into speculation and assumption, resulting in so much of the confusion we see today surrounding these topics. But are we in that time, are we now close enough to the end of the age that He IS willing to begin revealing the hidden understanding He sealed up in Daniel's day? Even that is arguable, but I do believe He is ready to reveal and in fact is doing so. I know when I got a revelation of the fact that there WERE "hidden" revelations that simply were not going to be understood until the time He appointed them to be revealed, I pointedly asked He reveal anything He was willing to ...to me. I want to know and if He's willing to tell someone now, stuff He's never been willing to say in the hearing of man before now, then i want to know what it is. First thing He did was absolutely wreck my pretty pre-trib sermon. Just brutally dismantled it verse by verse I found a lot of other "revelation" I thought I had falling apart at about the same time, and being identified for what it really was....assumptions. So what can we do? I don't have an answer. Above you reflect some assumptions about salvation, the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit...understanding of the real relationships between humanity and the two kinds of death....all so foreign to my understanding we'd have to spend days upon days discussing EACH of those before we could even get back to this whole issue of how the end times will really unfold. I had my whole previous paradigm utterly destroyed. Disassembled piece by piece and it took Him THREE YEARS to do it. After that I was left with absolutely NOTHING ....and whaddya know, once the floor was cleared of all the trash I'd piled on it, He started building again. It took another three years before I began to think i was beginning to see a coherent picture emerge again. And it was so incredibly different than anything I'd believed before it is still a marvel to me. So, now I've got this whole different paradigm of understanding and it clashes with yours And some of this new paradigm is based on ASSUMPTIONS. I'm a bit more aware of where those are, and cling to those very lightly now, but they're there. And arguable. Do I have it all right yet? Oh almost certainly not. All I can do is share what I fully believe He has shared with me, and my testimony of how He showed it to me (which is something I may end up sharing more of at some point). I know in this process, over and over He has demanded that I take His Word as He wrote it, with a determined focus on adding nothing to it and taking nothing away from it. Every misunderstanding He's dismantled for me so far has involved an assumption on my part. Adding to or explaining away one part or another, never once intentionally dishonoring His Word, yet it's still what I did, honorable INTENTION or not. Even saying that literalism can be taken too far as well There obviously are symbolic references, types and shadows, parables.....none of which were ever intended to be read literally. So even literalism has to be bounded by revelation and understanding. I can share two "events" from my own testimony that were "landmarks". One was the realization that almost without exception, the end times teaching I'd been exposed to ran right out to the end of Revelation 19 and Jesus second coming....and stopped. Period. When He pointed out that there were still 1000 years of human history left to unfold AFTER His return, and that ALL that needed to be integrated and understood in order to gain a fuller, more accurate picture....it was a life changing revelation. I'd NEVER heard a full sermon on the Millennial Reign and still today understanding/teaching of it is rare. And when you do begin to explore just what there is to be understood about that time it was surprising to me just how much information the Bible contains about it. The vast majority of it is in the OT too. So some might want to begin there. It's important, and it's a topic that has long been overlooked and neglected. But it informs and enlightens a whole bunch of other parts of the Bible. Another key event was when He showed me that the RESULT of most end times teaching was fear. And pointed out He NEVER uses fear in any way, for any purpose in the lives of His people. So if supposedly inspired preaching were bearing that kind of fruit, SOMETHING is not right with it. We've failed to teach Revelation as a "revealing" of Jesus Christ. We have been guilty of teaching it with an unspoken and unintentional but very flawed perspective....as if Revelation were a revealing of the beast and his plans and purposes. And fear has been the result This post from above: Is a very anemic, incomplete portion of a rather incredible "whole". But it's a starting point. If we can accept the precision and literal information presented in the very clear description of two resurrections, and begin comparing ALL the other resurrection passages to those as our start point, I predict you'll find that all the other verses we've layered over with all this vast number of varied assumptions, fit right into one of these two resurrections. We can utterly throw away the introduction of a latin word into the conversation and get back to just referring to things as the Bible does....resurrections. We don't need a "rapture" to describe an event that the Bible clearly defines as simply part of a resurrection. It's all one resurrection with slightly different operations depending on whether we're alive in a physical body or not when it happens. Anyway Marv i have no reason to question your integrity or desire to do His will and share truth Been there, done that, been dead wrong with all the right motives, and still probably have significant problems already entrained in this new understanding. All I can do is trust that He'll weed those out too as I keep seeking Him. So where does that leave us? I have no idea ..... I guess we each continue to do the best we know how with what we have.
  11. Obviously they aren't. Which excludes them from the first resurrection, though they fit quite nicely with all the requirements for the second. On the last day, just as Jesus Himself promised. This is assumed by many to be a rapture verse and it's subjected to a variety of assumed interpretations depending on where personal philosophy demands it fit...pre- mid- or post....or whatever. Making a careful comparison of both relevant verses 16 and 17 and Revelation 21: There is a great deal happening right around the Great White Throne Judgement. And a lot of it seems to be "handled" by God (gr. theos). Many overlook the fact that Jesus isn't the only member of the Trinity with a "second coming". Father has one planned for Himself as well and this is it...the final "act" in the "restoration of all things" in which Father who came to earth in the Garden of Eden, is "coming again" to finally take up the restored Kingdom and His rightful place in the midst of a fully restored Creation. It's a lot easier to read this as it is, and assume that the "dead in Christ" are coming back WITH FATHER as He descends with the New Jerusalem, just as verse 14 previously told us: Again "theos" - Father I'll leave it with this the following in an attempt to avoid a huge post nobody will read - but here are some significant events, ALL of which harmonize into a single picture without the slightest 'mash to fit' application of assumptions: 1. Final rebellion at the end of the Millennial Reign 2. Fire comes down and the renewal of the earth begins 3. Father is returning bringing the dead in Christ with Him 4. the sky rolls up like a scroll - marking the "last day" on which Jesus promised He would raise the dead 5. The dead in Christ rise first , those alive and remaining are "translated" through death in the twinkling of an eye, "changed in an instant" - corruption thrown off and incorruption put on. All of the dead (who were not participants in the first resurrection), those who are alive and remain and Jesus Himself rise to meet Father - and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Jesus and/or Father, take your pick (gr. kyrios) 6. The Great White Throne Judgement commences after all the dead are raised from the sea, death and Hades. Each is judged according to his works and then death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. The final book is opened, the Lamb's Book of Life and those not found in it are also cast into the Lake of Fire. 7. The last enemy (death) is finally put under Jesus' feet, which is the final event in Jesus' solitary reign. He can now turn His Kingdom back to Father for whom He died so that all might be restored to Him. 8. The renewed heavens and earth appear and the New Jerusalem is "ported" into this three dimensional realm at Jerusalem, and once more Eden is restored with whatever barrier between heaven and earth exists now ...removed. If there's any interest, probing deeper into details is certainly possible to do It all fits, no need for assumptions, or "mash to fit" interpretations. We're not forced to imagine some twisted idea of how people born during the Millennial Reign are saved, not forced to come up with some theology that says the "church" (Body) has somehow been closed prior to this, and there's no necessity of explaining away the Holy Spirit and denying He's even present on the earth, at any point since the cross. Just reading the Word for what it says and letting it interpret itself is much, much simpler and easier.
  12. I have a deep conviction that understanding and being prepared to walk in these gifts is about to become very important. This is perhaps of interest to others who hold that same conviction. Or are maybe just interested in obeying Him in "earnestly desiring spiritual gifts"
  13. I tend to agree. I think it's important, but He'll still save someone who doesn't have a full understanding of the Trinity...i don't think any of us have a full revelation of that anyway I know some people that don't think the Holy Spirit is a person too And they love Jesus....I'm happy to leave the details between He and them
  14. perhaps. But I think I already understand that pretty well. There are two kinds of death. We're born into the second death.....dead spirits cut off from fellowship with God. The new birth fixes that one. The ultimate end of the second death (lake of fire) is fully overcome at that point. But there's still natural death of this body to go through. And that is the death overcome by the resurrection. There is a very good reason for why death is the last enemy to be put under His feet. The power of physical death to HOLD us is also broken at the new birth. But it's still appointed unto all men to die...and THEN comes judgement. Being born again doesn't mean we escape that....just that it cannot hold us.
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