Resurrection Priest

Hello TONGUEINCHEEK. I try.

And I urge you to pray about it. As I will, and have. I cannot "embrace" a position unless/until I fully agree with it. Which is OK. Study takes time. Paul studied for years and years AFTER He met Christ on the Damascus road, before He felt ready to argue with the "scholars" of His day.

You're being PERSONAL again BibleGuy. How can we have good discussions, if you make it personal?

I do not believe that I am disrespecting Torah or Christ's desires. I believe "the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity also a change of the Law". I have NOT said that you "are at risk of the bad side" because you don't see what I see. Not nice BibleGuy. Let's not accuse each other. Let's just state our opinions and pray for each other. OK? I'm not one who believes that we have to be "perfect" (or have perfect doctrine) to be saved. That is what Christ's covering/forgiveness is for. We just look to HIM and ask HIM to teach us and guide us. I know you sincerely believe what you've shared with me. I respect your views, even if I don't agree with them.

Paul calls the "first covenant" a "ministry of death written on stones" (2Cor 3:7). Why? Because they could NOT keep it - not without His spirit within - something they "resisted". Only when we are assisted by His Spirit within, are we enabled to keep His law of love. That is what it means to be"yoked" up with Christ. Without that - it truly is impossible. The New Covenant promise is: "I will put My spirit within you." (Ezekiel 36:26) God does not ask us to do it alone. 2 Corinthians 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (KJV)

Do the #1 people celebrate/commemorate the Feasts? I am definitely NOT a "dispensationalist". I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. Re: #2 The Messianic UMJC synagogue I attended in Albuquerque years ago, taught that. Only "Jewish Christians" should keep the Sabbath. Crazy - IMO. #3: I agree completely that Jews and Gentiles "in Christ" are ALL Israelites. Everyone - both Jew and Gentile, must be attached to the Olive Tree, nourished by Christ - the Holy Root. All must strive to obey all 10 of the Covenant Commandments. I do NOT AGREE that the animal sacrifices are continued in the New Covenant. I believe the "priesthood" has been "changed" BACK to "the firstborn". (The sin of the golden calf having been washed away by Christ's death.) All faithful Levites (in Christ) are included in the Melchizedek priesthood of the firstborn. What would that make me part of? Guess I should have my own catagory - #4. lol My mother raised me SDA. I left that denomination 30 years ago. The SDAs are big on the Day of Atonement being the start of an "investigative judgment" in Heaven, which began back in 1844. Thing is. Today no one at the church today even notices the Day of Atonement from year to year. I was 40 years old when I learned that the "Last Supper" was a Passover meal. Grief! I felt very cheated. Yeshua said, "I know my sheep." No need to examine any heavenly record books to see who belong to Him.

Really? Is your view the Messianic view? Or are there many Messianic views? Did you get my PM to you?

I agree.

The TREE of Romans Chapter Eleven The "root is holy". Every "branch" attached to that TREE draws "nourishment" from "the root". [I'll let you read Romans Eleven for yourselves.] That "root" can be none other than Christ Himself. This is "life from the vine". We all draw life from Christ. "Branches were broken off for unbelief", and other (formerly) "wild" branches were "grafted on" to the TREE. (Like grafting a plum branch into a pear tree.) THE TREE REMAINS Notice - it is an OLIVE TREE. Paul has taken an image from Jeremiah. Jeremiah 11:16 "The LORD called thy name, Green Olive Tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken." Not all the branches were broken off - just some, a fitting image of the Northern Kingdom, "burned with fire". Some branches were left attached to "the tree", but were not producing much. So THE TREE represents ISRAEL. Branches are "broken off" "for unbelief". Other branches are "grafted in" because of belief. Paul says, "and thus all Israel will be saved". He means "Israel" - the TREE, not every branch that was ever attached to that tree. When the LORD returns, everyone attached to that Olive Tree by faith, drawing nourishment from Christ, will be saved. The OLIVE TREE represents redeemed Israel - the people of God - the bride of Christ. Paul could have said, "thus only Israel will be saved". It would mean the same thing. "Israel" and the redeemed Church (congregation) of God are not two separate peoples. They are one and the same. One is either attached to the Tree, drawing life from Christ, or lost.

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (NIV) To be "lost" one must "resist" the Spirit until one is "hardened" to a condition beyond which the LORD cannot soften the heart/mind, without overpowering the free will of the individual. This HE will not do. To reach this point, one must continually tell oneself that truth is false, and falsehood is true. It is not true that God will continue to forgive forever. A day of reckoning will come. It is not true that God will eventually "save" every created being. That is a falsehood that some comfort themselves with, and use as a reason to delay repentance. But is "resisting the Holy Spirit" the same as THE SIN which cannot be forgiven. To "blaspheme" is to speak falsehood. To blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, would be to speak falsehood against God (Who "is spirit" John 4) . Jesus was condemned for blasphemy. John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (NAS) Stephen was stoned for preaching the same "blasphemy". Every believer who preached "the Gospel" of Jesus Christ was guilty of this same sin - "blasphemy" - according to the Jews. To preach that Jesus Christ was/is "the Son of God" - that God's Son had "come in the flesh" - was the "blasphemy" (according to the Jews). But it was NOT blasphemy. It was the truth. To resist THIS TRUTH - is Antichrist. 1 John 4:2-3 "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus as the Christ who has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now is already in the world." (NET) 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (NAS) Spirit of God - Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God who has come in the flesh Spirit of Antichrist - Jesus is not the Messiah, was not from God, and did not come in the flesh To continually say that Jesus was only a man (not God's Son who came "in human flesh") - IS BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD, and is the message of Antichrist. But remember. There are hundreds of former unbelievers, worldwide, who have come to believe that GOD really did give "His only begotten Son". They will be in His kingdom. It is the continual resistance/hardening that results in the unpardonable nature of the sin. Paul himself was against Christ, until he met Him.

I do accept Genesis creation account as literal, and the account of a universal flood too. I think that creation science is catching up with evolution science, especially in the field of genetics, though physics and geology are not far behind. When I read that giant bones of dinosaurs were recently found with bone marrow tissue still pliable and DNA able to be analyzed. Wow! Anyone wanting my list can PM me. Most are from creation.com ministry. Can't say I like all their speakers, but some are stellar.

I have puzzled for years over Paul's use of the phrase "under the law". He seems to use the phrase in more than one way. The meaning changes with the context. Maybe a few folks here can give more clarity. Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” It would seem that believers are "not under" the law that decrees death for every sin. Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” We know that Yeshua was "born under the law" ( ). Galatians 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.” It would appear that "sons" are "not under the law". Why would Yeshua be born under the law of "You sin - you die"? He was lead by the Spirit. Unless - "the law" is used only to refer to the "first covenant" law, or maybe even to the additional Pharisaic laws. Or maybe Paul is saying that Yeshua was born, just like us, with mortal human nature - and IF He had sinned, then He would have died eternally. (I know, some say He could not have sinned. But this text suggests otherwise, if indeed "under the law" means under "the law of sin and death". In the end, He was "made to be sin" for us. The Father had to rescue Him from the death that resulted. Romans 7:22-23 “In my inmost self I dearly love God's law, but I see that acting on my body there is a different law which battles against the law in my mind. So I am brought to be a prisoner of that law of sin which lives inside my body.” (NJB) TWO different laws in this passage. 1. God's law (which seems to be in Paul's mind) and 2. the law of sin (which "lives inside" Paul's "body"). I think #2 is the one we are set free from - in Christ. #1 is "the law of the Spirit of life" Romans 3:19 “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God.” (NAU) Sounds like "all the world" is "under the Law" EXCEPT born again believers. They are led by the Spirit" and are therefore "not under the law" - but what law? What law are believers "not under" and how does that guide their behaviors? eg resting on the Sabbath, eating "clean" foods, widows marrying their brother-in-laws, separating women during their menses to different lodgings, etc. etc. But those "without the law" will not be held to the same standard with those who are "under the law". Romans 2:12 “For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.” Gentiles who did not know the Law of Sinai would still perish, because of Adam’s sin which brought all mankind under the dominion of Satan, but they would not be “judged by the law” (of Sinai). They would not be held to that higher standard. But Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin." Wasn't the continual evening/morning sacrifice for "sins of ignorance". That would mean the blood of Jesus covers all sins committed in ignorance, until such time that the person becomes aware that he has sinned against GOD. OK. Anyone have some insights on this ? I figured that Hebrew Roots folks would be the ones to ask.

It seems we are repeating. I have shared my view that "the priesthood" was "changed" BACK to the original "firstborn" - of whom Yeshua Messiah is chief and we are part of His priesthood. I have shared my view that the "first Tent" - that physical Tabernacle/Temple made with hands, was a symbolic prophecy, and will pass away when the forever Temple of God and the Lamb is our reality - here on earth. I thank you for the great dialog. You have really helped me to understand the Hebrew Roots view.

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst? (NIV)

So - in the forever kingdom, the LORD will have to remind us not to give false witness, or commit adultery, not to disrespect our parents, etc. etc. ?? I thought the whole law hangs on 2 principles - love for God and love for each other. If those principles become part of our very nature, why the need for specifics? In the forever kingdom the Ark will not be visited or even come to mind. Jeremiah 3:16 "And it shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they shall say no more, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they miss it, nor shall it be made again. 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem 'The Throne of the LORD,' and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the LORD; nor shall they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart.'" (NAS) How do animal sacrifices hang on love for God and love for one another? I can love God and love others WITHOUT killing animals. Many have done so for 1950 years, since God allowed the destruction of that House.

OK. Never mind.

I believe "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected at the 8th millennium. These will be people who - for whatever reason - did not have the opportunity to choose God/Christ during the first 6000 years of earth's history. They will be resurrected, learn of God and Christ, then they will have to choose. They will be taught and governed by those redeemed and made immortal at the Glorious Return. Many will choose Christ. They rest will come up to attack Jerusalem where Christ is reigning as King. They will be consumed by fire (Gog/Magog). Satan is "loosed" from the pit, for this time period. He will tempt/test those of "the rest", to show whom they will serve.

Just recently, I came to an understanding of Zechariah's vision in Chpt 4. Been puzzling over that one for 40 years. The two olive branches represent priest and king. Both were anointed. The anointing of king, and the anointing of high priest ("flowing down the beard" Ps 133:2) flows together into ONE Yeshua Messiah, who is BOTH King and High Priest. Yeshua is then the conduit for the Spirit to "the churches" (Rev. 1:12-13). John the Baptist did say "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matt 3:11). The prophecy was about Yeshua Messiah. He is the "golden bowl" of the vision.

BibleGuy, Will uncircumcised men be allowed to come into the courtyard of sacrifice, of the future rebuilt Temple? Will they still be forbidden to enter there to present their offerings? And what about women? Ezekiel 44:9 "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel." (KJV) Any believer can come before His presence today, in the person of our High Priest. No physical circumcision necessary. Hebrews 6:19 "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." (NIV) A "forerunner" goes before. Which means that we also will one day enter that "presence" to stand before God. Obviously we will need to be "circumcised" in heart, by Christ. But we (men and women) will ALSO need to be physically circumcised. THAT happens when we receive the new spiritual body. The old "flesh" will be gone.

BibleGuy, you thought that maybe a Temple may exist "outside" of the New Jerusalem, and that Temple will continue forever with Levite priests and animal sacrifices. Revelation 21:22 "But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (NKJ) If God and the Lamb ARE THE TEMPLE in the New Jerusalem, I don't see how there could be any other Temple, especially one outside the City.

The LORD allowed that "first Tent" to be obliterated. HE has not allowed its rebuilding - for almost 2000 years. The only way a believer could "go up to the Temple of the LORD" is through prayer. Jesus "became a minister in the sanctuary, and in THE TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man" (Heb 8:2 NAS). Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into HEAVEN ITSELF, now to appear in the presence of God for us; (NKJ). Heaven itself is the place where our "sin offering" is presented - all our "offerings" in fact. When they build another "copy" on earth, just this side of the Glorious Return, will that be a "house" built by the LORD? Will His Spirit return to that House. I don't believe so. "Except the Lord build the house, they that build labour in vain:" (Psa 127:1 LXA). That "House" will be destroyed, along with everything else man-made, when the earth is consumed in fire.

Hebrews 8:10 "This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." (NIV) The writer of Hebrew is quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-33 Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (NAS) So the NEW COVENANT is NOT going to be like the "first" covenant - the one they broke. What then is the difference. The "first covenant" was written on stone. The future covenant would be written in the mind/heart. The future covenant will be the same as the original covenant - the one in Eden at the beginning. Only AFTER sin entered were sacrifices necessary. At Mt Sinai, did the "first" covenant include animal sacrifices? Was that written on the stones? No. Just the 10 Commands. The stone symbolized the hardness of the hearts of the people. The 10 Commands were literal promise of what God would do - in them/us one day. The "first" covenant was "we will do" for HIM. The New Covenant is what HE will do in us. When you say "ALL Torah" you include the entire system of Levite priests performing animal sacrifices, but that system was not established until AFTER "the Covenant" was spoken and written, and agreed to by the people. That entire system was THE REMEDY for breaking covenant. But it SYMBOLIZED the true remedy - the blood of Messiah, His resurrection, His defeat of Satan, our resurrection, and His New Covenant written inside the heart. Under the New Covenant HE has "changed" HIS priesthood - to "the firstborn" who belong to HIM. They "will reign with HIM" to rule the nations.

Ahhhh. So the earthly one is SYMBOLIC. It always has been.

I'm talking about "the earth" that was created in the beginning by God's Son, per Hebrews 1:10-12. That "earth" or "land" or "ground". Hebrews 1:10 And, "You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you continue. And they will all grow old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will fold them up and like a garment they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never run out." (NET) I believe this death of the earth by plagues and fire, will happen just after the Glorious Return of Yeshua Messiah. Then - after a period of time - He will heal and restore it, making it new again.

In Isaiah 1:11-17, the LORD hates the outward observance of His Torah, without the inward heart repentance and true heart love for HIM. Even I don't believe the LORD hates HIS Sabbaths or HIS Feasts. All flesh will come before HIM in the New Earth - on those days. Obviously when "all flesh" have true heart joy in HIM. Isaiah 66:22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD. (NAS) Someone here is going to quote Colossians 2:16-17. "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." (NKJ) I believe Paul was telling believers not to allow the "circumcision party" to scold them regarding the way in which they commemorated "the Feasts". They need NOT go up to Jerusalem. They need not be physically circumcised. They need not offer "meal offerings" (food) or "drink offerings" (drink). Those things were the "shadow" pointing forward in symbols to "the substance" which is Christ.