David1701

And, as I've posted several times now, such commentary is not infallible and is inferior to the inspired Tanakh. Who are we to add chapters and verses? Who are we to add spaces between the words, or punctuation? Who are we to translate from one language to another, when such translation will, inevitably, be imperfect? Let's not pick nits unnecessarily. The whole of the Tanakh, in one way or another, points to the Messiah. The ark was a type of the Messiah. Those who are "in him", through faith, are saved from the judgment on sin coming on the whole world. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son of promise, was a type of God sacrificing his one-of-a-kind Son, on the Cross, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Moses was a type of the Messiah, regarding the prophetic element of his ministry. Faith is not mere mental assent to truths. Faith is complete trust in and reliance upon God and the Messiah. This faith works by love, and results in good works. Evil thoughts are just as sinful as the actions that spring from them. The immediate consequences of evil thoughts might not be as bad, but the motives and desires are. Proverbs 24:9 (Jewish Translation of the Tanakh) The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men. Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. Okay, that's good. Now, a question for you: if you died tomorrow, and God judged you by the Ten Commandments, would you be innocent or guilty?

Okay, so you're a Deist. Most people on this forum are Christians, so it should not surprise you if we post according to what the Bible says. It certainly does not say that octopi are more advanced than man.

Was the octopus created in the image of God? No! Has the octopus created civilizations? No! Has it created literature, music, art, technology, etc.? No! What does having more of certain types of organ have to do with being "more advanced"? Absolutely NOTHING!

It might not be strange to unbelievers (who are slaves of sin), but it is very strange to those who believe the Bible.

1) I didn't say that I don't care about the Talmud. I said that commentaries carry far less weight than the inspired word of God. This principle is self-evident. I don't need to read a commentary to know that the principle is true. 2) It's true that the Kings, Samuel and Chronicles have each been divided into two books, in most Bibles; however, the content is the same; and, anyone who reads them will realise that the narrative is continuous. 3) Noah, Abraham, et al, were righteous by faith in the LORD. Their good works flowed from their relationship with the LORD. People are called "good" or "righteous", in the Tanakh, because of their faith in God and in the Messiah to come. Good works are a consequence of that loving, trusting relationship. 4) I've already agreed with you that God does not harden soft-hearted people, and that Pharaoh, specifically, was already a hard-hearted man when God hardened him further. 5) I did not claim that "yetzer hara" was a "magical force"! It is, however, inherent to all of fallen mankind, and it explains why everyone sins. 6) I have already shown you where the Tanakh says that fallen man is not naturally righteous, in several places. Here's one, as reminder. Gen. 8:20,21 (Jewish Translation) 20 And Noah builded an altar unto HaShem; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. 21 And HaShem smelled the sweet savour; and HaShem said in His heart: 'I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 7) The LORD is our righteousness Jeremiah 23:5,6 (Jewish Translation) 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. ---The LORD is our righteousness. We must not claim to be righteous in ourselves, because it is untrue, and because it is boasting.

No problem - I was up too late last night as well, and thought that my post was a bit below par, due to being very tired. You are right that I've not read the Talmud; however, the principle remains true that commentaries carry a lot less weight than the inspired word of God. Why is changing the order of the books that important? The content is still all there, and you can read the books in any order you want. No translation is perfect; and "Lucifer" is not such a terrible translation, if you know what it means (light-bearer: in this case referring, figuratively, to the "morning star" - Venus). I do agree, however, that "Lucifer" is not the best translation and it's good that modern translations have amended it. No, not exactly. The Torah is still very useful for teaching purposes; and the Ten Commandments, in particular, are very good for showing people that they are sinful and will be found guilty, in God's sight, if judged by them. The people are renewed, in the New Covenant; so, in that sense, I agree; but, the Tanakh does say that it's a new covenant, unlike the one made previously with Israel. But he does! Please tell me if you are able to love the Lord your God, with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbour as yourself, 24/7. If you can't, then the decree is impossible for you (or anyone else) to keep. There are numerous prophecies, in the Tanakh, all fulfilled in Yeshua; but, I agree that it's a huge topic and probably deserves its own thread. As I mentioned previously, God does not harden the hearts of soft-hearted people (we agree about that); nevertheless, he does harden some people's hearts, and I gave you a quote to prove it. There is much more than mere permission, in the wording of the Tanakh about what the LORD did with Pharaoh. He did not merely permit Pharaoh to harden his own heart, he explicity says that he would harden Pharaoh's heart. The expression "yetzer hara" is Jewish, I believe, meaning "the congenital inclination to do evil, by violating God's will". Can you confirm this? In any case, the Tanakh clearly shows what fallen mankind is like. Genesis 8:20,21 (Jewish Translation of the Tanakh) 20 And Noah builded an altar unto HaShem; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. 21 And HaShem smelled the sweet savour; and HaShem said in His heart: 'I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Psalms 14:2,3 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 1 Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; Where does the Tanakh say that everyone is able to do good or evil (N.B. I'm not looking for commandments telling people what to do, which is a different issue)?

The Talmud is people's opinions as to what the Torah means. This does not mean that those opinions are always correct; whereas, the Torah is always correct. These are translations into English. No translation is, or can be, absolutely perfect (e.g. Hebrew words often do not have an exact English equivalent, then there is the question of what to do with idioms and grammatical differences between languages, etc.). I agree with you that to change even a letter of the Tanakh would be a sin; but, that is speaking of copying the Hebrew, not translating into a different language. In translation, we must try to convey the original as accurately as possible, but that is the best that can be done. The meaning of that Jewish translation of Jer. 31:31-34 is just the same as the KJV that I quoted (and probably the same as most other translations). There are some Bibles that put the Tanakh books in the original order; but, that is really not the most important matter, since it's the content that matters far more than the order in which it is presented. The KJV uses "Lucifer" but most modern translations do not. There have been several covenants (all mentioned in the Tanakh). The Tanakh also mentions that there was a New Covenant, yet to come (at that time). We simply believe that that covenant has come. This is not an emendation, but faith in what God has told us, in the Tanakh. I don't say that keeping the law is irrelevant, since the righteousness that the law requires is fulfilled in those who trust in the Messiah and are led by the Spirit of God. Trying to be righteous, by attempting to keep the 613 commandments of the Torah, should lead you to realise that you can't do it, which, in turn, should lead you to realise that you are guilty before God and in need of a Saviour. The animal sacrifices (and the shed blood) were necessary, to cover the sins of God's people; however, they had to keep being repeated, because they could never take those sins away. Those sacrifices have long since ceased, because they have been fulfilled by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God (who is Yeshua HaMashiach), on the cross. Being hanged on a cross is a curse, and the Lord Yeshua became a curse for us, taking all of our sin, and the punishments due for that sin, on the cross. He is also the perfect Mediator between God and man, since he is both (Emmanuel - God with us). Exodus 4:19-21 (Jewish Translation of the Tanach) https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/shemot-exodus-chapter-4 19 And HaShem said unto Moses in Midian: 'Go, return into Egypt; for all the men are dead that sought thy life.' 20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt; and Moses took the rod of G-d in his hand. 21 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'When thou goest back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand; but I will harden his heart, and he will not let the people go. Yes the righteous and unrighteous went to Sheol, but in different compartments (God separates light from darkness). Perhaps you could tell us all what "yetzer hara" means? I'm explaining that there are different types of freedom, and that our will has some, but not all, of these. The human will is free from external coercion. There are some matters in which the human will is free from legal or moral obligation. The human will is free to do what the person desires the most (within restrictions of ability and opportunity), although there may be legal and/or moral obligations involved. The human will is not free from the person's nature; it always seeks to bring into being the strongest desire, at any given moment. This means that the will, by its very nature, is a slave to the person's nature/strongest desire.

If you want the Talmud to be authoritative for you (subjective authority), then that's your choice, no man can stop you; however, it does not carry the objective authority of the inspired word of God. Our own book contains this passage, because it's straight from the Tanakh, which Christians believe is the older part of the inspired word of God. Amen; however, those people will have God's Torah inscribed upon their hearts, which is different from (and better than) the giving of the law to Moses upon tablets of stone. Yes indeed. Why would I try to convince you of something that I don't believe??? Of course the LORD has not gone back on his word! You must be making an assumption that what I am saying implies this, but I'm not. As I said above, I agree with you that the LORD will never go back on his word. The New Covenant is a part of God's eternal covenant - a vitally important part, since no-one has ever gained acceptance with him by trying to keep the law. Alright, then, don't use the word "hell", use "sheol" (the place of the dead), which is scattered throughout the Tanakh. I know that, in certain contexts, it can mean "grave", but it often doesn't. The great thing about freedom, is that it can mean so many different things. As an example, a freewill offering is one in which the offerer is under no legal or moral obligation to give it. That is one kind of freedom. Another example would be the choices that people make every day, without any coercion. These kinds of freedom are not a problem at all. Now, what about a kind of freedom that some claim we have: the alleged ability to will contrary to our nature and desires? Well, the Tanakh says that man was created in the image of God; it also says that God cannot lie (because he is the Truth). Since God cannot will contrary to his nature (and hallelujah for that!), neither can we. We can lie, since Adam fell and we inherit his fallen nature. Firstly, God (there is only one God) only hardens hard people. He gives them more of what they already have (hardness of heart). Secondly, it is God's prerogative to have mercy upon whom he will and to leave the rest to the sin they desire. Thirdly, what we do matters very much; not because it changes the future, but because we are accountable for what we do, since we do it willingly. I do not want to convince you that God is cruel or unjust, since I don't believe that myself! Having a choice is not the same thing as having the desire to carry out the right choice. Options are one thing, but it is your strongest desire, at any given moment, that determines which available option you choose.

Why would you put your trust in commentaries by fallible men? The Tanakh is inspired by God, but the commentaries on it are not. It was my comment, not Cahn's. The Talmud is not equal in value to the Tanakh (far from it). The equivalent for a Christian with a Gentile background (such as myself) would be trusting in Christian commentaries on the Bible, as if they were also inspired. We are not to do this... God has made a New Covenant (as it says in the Tanakh) with Israel; and, he has graciously brought many Gentiles into that covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV) 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. People are indeed not in charge of their own destiny - God is. He hardens one hell-deserving sinner and softens another, without coercion.

The Talmud is not something that anyone should be expected to follow, Jewish or otherwise. In the New Covenant, we are not under the law, but under grace. The law of Moses has been fulfilled. It is those who are led by the Spirit of God who are the sons of God, not those who try to be righteous, by attempting to keep the law. The law was a schoolmaster, to lead us to the Messiah; and, the Ten Commandments (the foundation of the law) are still very useful for showing people what sin is, to make them realise their guilt and helplessness, so that they might cry out to the LORD for mercy and acknowledge their need for a Saviour. He doesn't support them, in the sense of trusting in them as politicians; but, he does honour those policies that support godliness. Are you serious? The Tanakh is part of the Bible. I can quote from a Jewish translation, instead of a Christian translation, and, in most cases, it will make no difference. I said nothing about compulsion. You are conflating the freedom to choose what we want, which we all agree upon, with the freedom to want what is contrary to our nature (we can't). Your nature determines what you want to do and you are free to choose that. An evil man will choose evil, and a righteous man will generally choose what is righteous; but both choose freely (not coerced). The LORD uses means to his ends. It is not that what will be, will be, no matter what; rather, it is that the LORD will bring about his purposes, using the means he has chosen, including our uncoerced choices.

I don't think it's just one person that she has in mind. Anyway, whoever the people are that she's thinking about, she has not told us any of their alleged false teachings, so we have nothing to test and nothing to discuss.

No, I'm not. I don't know against whom you have these condemning accusations in your heart; but, the way you are going about this is very ungodly. You should be open and honest, or you should drop the thread.

Come on, out with it: what hidden accusations do you have that you have not had the guts to post openly? You are hiding behind generalisations, but there are specifics in you heart, aren't there? There is no point in all this innuendo. Either drop the thread, or be specific.

I expect that every genuine Christian takes them seriously. I certainly do. Can you provide any concrete examples of a Christian teacher going against them? If you can't (or won't), then it sums up the problem with this whole thread: vague warnings about "false teachers", without any concrete evidence or examples to test.

Yes, and...?

A "typical right wing (sic) pastor"? He's nothing like most pastors, Right-wing or otherwise! He certainly has not abandoned his Jewish roots. He teaches the people in his congregation who are from Gentile backgrounds (some are, some aren't) about Jewish matters that they would probably otherwise not know about. I've seen some of his videos and I can vouch for this. He affirms that Trump has done and said many sinful things and that he is not a holy man; nevertheless, he says that God has used Trump (God uses everyone and everything, for his own good purposes), in a similar way to how he used Jehu, metaphorically speaking. You are being very condemnatory here. People are absolutely NOT in charge of their own destiny! There are so many proofs of this, throughout the Bible, that it should hardly need to be pointed out. Here are a couple anyway. Genesis 50:19,20 (KJV) 19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. God intended Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery, as the Bible states, in order to save many people, during the famine, many years later. Joseph had no control over this whatever. Isaiah 46:9-11 (KJV) 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Amillenialists do not deny the book of Revelation. They treat it as the kind of book that it says it is (full of symbolism), taking into account the prophetic books of the OT and the symbolism in them, which does not mean that they have everything right, or that they agree on every point. Revelation is probably the hardest book in the Bible to understand properly; and I doubt if any Christian understands it all correctly. In any case, just because someone's interpretation of an extremely difficult book differs from yours, does not make that person a false teacher! I have never come across a full Preterist. I'm sure there must be some, somewhere; but they must be quite rare. I certainly believe that hell is real; but, a genuine Christian could have a weakness in the area of sentimentality (I've come across many with this weakness) and find it emotionally very difficult to accept the truth about hell.

I don't think he is either! I don't agree with him about everything, but we agree on all the essentials I listed (and several other, lesser matters).

False teachers deny one or more Christian essentials, e.g., in no special order... 1) The deity of Christ 2) The Trinity 3) The Lord's shed blood and death on the cross for our sins 4) The Lord's bodily resurrection 5) The Lord's sinlessness 6) Salvation by grace alone (not our will or works) 7) Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone (not by religion, will or works) 8) That the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God and contains all necessary doctrine 9) All glory in salvation belongs to God alone 10) The Lord's virgin birth 11) The Lord's miracles 12) The need to be born again

He's not a "Trumper". He says that there are parallels between Trump and Jehu, which is far from the same thing. Just as many Christian pastors are called "Pastor _____". I don't like it either, but at least it tells you what his office is. You could look at some of the videos, to see what you think. Yes, I agree with you; but, it often happens, when someone changes religious outlook, if the family has strong religious attachments. In some religions (e.g. Islam and Hinduism), some zealous families will even try to kill you, if you convert.

I've only known one Messianic Jew, although I only met him a couple of times (many years ago, in Edinburgh), and he was definitely Jewish (his Jewish family disowned him, when he believed in the Messiah). Perhaps you could also look up Jonathan Cahn (a Messianic Jewish Rabbi). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjsoQpzk-XQOt4YM6nzq_-Q This is not a link to a video, but to Cahn's youtube channel.

You never know, perhaps they would share something with you that God would use to win you over.

Messianic Jews (i.e. ones who actually believe in the Messiah who has come) are the spiritual ones, who have the life of God in them. Ezekiel 36:26,27 (WEB) 26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them. Jeremiah 31:31-34 (WEB) 31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, from their least to their greatest, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. Isaiah 9:6,7 (KJV) 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The Cabal has an agenda... They set one group against another, stirring up both sides, then, when no-one can stand the aggro any more, they offer themselves and their new order, as the solution. Thesis -> Antithesis -> Synthesis It's the technique used often by Fabian Socialism; and one of the main techniques used by Freemasonry, the highest degree of which has the motto "Ordo ab Chao" (Order out of Chaos).

Love your enemies... Perhaps you haven't read about that? Matt. 5:43-48 (KJV) 43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.