Charlie744

Ok and I understand your point, but I think I just may have reduced my answer (especially re: the beast / RCC) because that is not my focus. Let me make this clearer if I can: The beast (is not the little horn), and the beast is not the RCC. The beast, however it is found to be will use their symbolic iron teeth AND their feet to conquer and destroy (Daniel 7:7). The heavenly being arrives in chapter 7 and AFTER introducing Jesus to the “vision” tells Daniel the exact events that must occur (per 7:7), but now He informs Daniel that He (Jesus) will come and judge and conquer (nails of brass). The ONLY two changes are: 1) Jesus enters the vision AT THE END of the period where the beast does their destruction, 2) He (nails of brass) arrives to judge and conquer the beast and all His enimies. Hope this isolates the issue and does not attempt to discuss or identify the beast. But just a note- the beast might just be the worst attributes of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS the ferocious dealings of Rome... in other words, there is NO limit to man’s evil! Charlie

Ok and thanks! I have NOT studied Revelation but I was just thinking ahead if by God keeping the 7 plagues from His people, perhaps this might translate to Him keeping the “wrath” also from His people- I know there is a lot of discussion and disagreement re: the rapture, and when this might occur... if God is going to follow His ways as in the Exodus, this might be what could/would happen in the future... Thanks, Charlie

First, that was / is some great stuff (purely a bear biblical term)! IF I understand some of what you mentioned, I think may be seeing the same... but here goes... The more I think about this, the more comfortable I find- the 4th kingdom, headed by the beast (RCC / pope), will conquer and destroy from its inception to the second coming. This is revealed through their use of their iron teeth (they tear and chew apart their enimies without any sense of feeling or guilt. And they will continue to destroy by also stamping their enimies into the ground (completely) by their symbolic feet (not toed or nails since both 7 & 19 mention “feet”). Consequently, 7:7 addresses the “beasts” destruction only. Then, between 7 & 19, we have a further interpretation where the heavenly being tells Daniel the exact same interpretation BUT He adds that fact that the “nails of brass” will destroy and conquer. Verse 19 and the revealing of Jesus (between 7 & 19) is telling us all these things will happen and then Jesus will come to judge (nails of brass - His judgement). Therefore, from the inception of the beast to His second coming is ~ 2,000 years. The beast will destroy and conquer until Jesus - God is telling Daniel and us (although there is NO way Daniel could have possibly understood this- so it really is for us), these things must take place BUT I will come again to judge and conquer at the end of time. How does that come across to you? Please also note I can not discuss anything re: Revelation since I have not Star studying it... I am attempting to finish Daniel before I start Revelation- if I can’t get Daniel right, I would never get Revelation correct- it MUST work that way! They MUST fit like a hand in a glove, but Daniel MUST be interpreted FIRST. Charlie

Again, thank you for your comments but, for me, I have absolutely no doubt God has placed “nails of brass” for a very specific reason. Every Word He writes has a purpose and meaning behind it... It makes NO sense to me that He would want or leave it up to us to determine if even one of His Words were just “color” (my word only and I am sure there are more appropriate words to place here).... but I hope it gets my point across. So, I would rather try to understand what He wants us to see versus assuming / discussing IF it is relevant- again, for me it is clear it has a special meaning. Thank you again, Charlie

Continued..... since this added phrase “nails of brass or bronze” has been added AFTER the introduction of the “spiritual being (Jesus), perhaps this means that God is going to judge at His second coming which is AFTER the destruction of the 4th kingdom/beast???? bronze speaks of God’s righteous judgement that is perfectly just and tempered, wisely administered with precision and perfect timing to get the results he desires, motivated by love. Any thoughts? Thanks, Charlie

Thanks, not sure I understand your initial comment about the “correct title”... please explain why you started your response with this. Secondly, if you believe the 3/7 plagues are incorrect, no problem! Please provide your thoughts - I would like to hear them! Howver, my inquiry is to try and learn what others believe not only at the time of the Exodus but if we should expect a similar occurrence at the “2nd Exodus”. God seems to ALWAYS tell us what will happen before it happens... Thanks, Charlie

Thank you for your thoughts! However I believe there is a definite reason for God to have this added description mentioned within some 12 verses of this chapter - God does not do random, or inserts any letter or word without a specific reason. It is up us to learn what and why He has written these things. I agree with you that Rome would tear into or year apart its enimies but that was already mentioned in 7:7. Although I am still searching, I believe the key to this is the information BETWEEN 7 and 19: We see the introduction of the heavenly being (I believe it is Jesus), and He is coming at the end of times (v. 10). This is the time of judgment. Therefore, these in between verses are giving us an understanding of the TIME or length of time the beast will harm and destroy. So, within the 4th kingdom, this beast will destroy from its inception to the 2nd coming and will be destroyed only by Jesus Himself. The only change seems to be the “brass” used in v.19.... Is the “iron” used to mean a very destructive force AND a “timing” reference (beginning of its rule), while the added term “brass” is mentioned to indicate both a “timing” point AND ..... Wait a minute... I must have read this a hundred times and simply read over this- there is NOT JUST ONE word added!!!! Verse 7:19 says, “nails of brass” and NOT just brass. Verse 7:7 has “feet”, while 7:19 has “nails of brass”!! Sorry for missing this ... this should help us understand the purpose of the changes ... we know there is a 2,000 year period between the two uses or mention of the metals.. Hope you might see this and can help! Thank you, Charlie

My initial reference is to the 10 plagues before the Exodus from Egypt. It is my understanding that the first 3 plagues affected everyone including the Jews, however the following 7 plagues only affected the Egyptians. Why? The second question is: Do we see the same pattern in the end of times.... Thanks, Charlie

Are you saying you have a different understanding, and if so, please explain? Thank you.

Thank you, but as mentioned, there does not seem to be any change in the damage or destruction due to this added piece of information. Still searching.... thanks.

Ok and thank you for your response! You have obviously given this much thought! I hope you have not mind, but can you comment on why there is no mention of brass in 7:7 yet we see it in 7:19? I think the iron teeth reflect the power and lack of concern the beast has against its foes. It is just willing to tear into pieces without any concern. In 7:19 AS IN 7:19, both show a “stamping down and crushing” - no change in the results. The ONLY addition is the “brass” description in 7:19. Why only this addition? Thank you, Charlie

Ok, I was hoping to receive some interesting comments on my previous post- Daniel 7:7 v. 7:19... I know there are some creative folks in this site, and I need a little break from Daniel. So, I would like your thoughts on why the first 3 plagues affected both the Jews and the Egyptians, while the last 7 affected only the Egyptians..... AND, as in SO MANY times in the OT, how will this SAME pattern be seen in the end times (Revelation). Thank you, Charlie

You are so right! This really is a good one to come together and work through.... I just re-read chapter 7 and I am pretty sure I interpreted 7:19 incorrectly. I had originally thought the spiritual being was the one who made the “brass nails” comment... but it seems that Daniel himself had added the “brass” reference to the nails. This certainly seems to change things... now, how would Daniel know to add this to the vision? Oh well! Charlie Edit: I would like to ask if someone might please read verses 7:16 to 7:19 and tell me who or how Daniel has this new / added information re: the nails or claws (of brass). There may be different translations or I am simply not interpreting it correctly.... is this spiritual being giving Daniel the meaning of this vision that now incorporates “brass” in the description of the nails? Help and thanks, Charlie

Thank you for your two responses! Great things to think about! For me, I am comfortable with applying Leviticus 26:18 & 19 to Nebuchadnezzar’s 7 year period of punishment and the bands of iron and brass. But I am having problems with understanding 7:7 and 7:19. I can see the similarity of the metals but I am concerned with that he “timing” issue. Why is the added mention of the brass nails AFTER the spiritual being attempts to explain the vision to Daniel. The iron teeth represents the power and tearing and brutality of the beast against any and all others... these iron teeth are strong and indefensible AND they do not “taste” or “feel” the destruction they inflict on others (people are surprised to learn just how much the flavor or taste of things is captured by our teeth - in addition to our tongues). So we have a good understanding of the iron teeth. Then we come to the toes or claws and in BOTH verses they are / seem to be just as effective in their destruction. So what is the introduction of the metal to the claws? I think there is that “timing” issue (maybe) to reflect the spiritual beings view AFTERWARDS (end of times), but what does this metal add to the image or message? I am not so sure that Leviticus 26:19 may be at work here... something is missing!!!! I do know one thing- when we find or see it, we will know it!!! Thank you again, Charlie

Update: additional thoughts- Perhaps this is similar to the two metal bands of the tree in Nebuchadnezzar’s 7 year period... that is here is indeed a beginning AND an end dictated by God and WITHOUT the knowledge of the beast.. the beast will think to conquer forever but God is telling us He is in control and will win. This then reflects Leviticus 26:19 - similar to Nebuchadnezzar’s two bands of iron and brass. Charlie

I don’t think this is so... this is all about the 4th kingdom. The 3rd kingdom of Greece has been long gone. Charlie

Thank you very much for your response! You are correct, this is a tuff one. I have also attempted to isolate on the type of metals mentioned but have not found much... yet. Currently, I am concentrating on isolating the following: 1) in 7:7, I am seeing the beast doing great damage when it comes to power. This would is what Daniel sees. 2) in 7:16, we now have Daniel being told what this vision is all about BY one of the spiritual beings. 3) in 7:18, this spiritual being tells us the “set apart ones” (Israel), will receive and possess the kingdom FOREVER. I believe this might mean it is now looking back at everything— beyond the 4th kingdom which is NOT a view at 7:7. 4) now we arrive at 7:19 where we see the “mails of brass” for the first time- this has been added the identification of the 4th beast. So, what is causing this? a) is this due to something we are not able to see at the time of the coming of the 4th beast? b) is this a “added feature” (supernatural) that has always been there but behind the scenes or seeing by man? c) it appears the SAME level of damage or destruction occurs in both verses, but the “beast” which represents the “kingdom of men” maybe being further strengthened by these “nails of brass”. OR, these “nails of brass” represent the damage of the beast in two separate ways: (and I am starting to lean in this direction), 1) the 7:7 damage represents the harm to man (physically while on earth), 2) while the 7:19 damage, from a “spiritual view”, reveals the damage to man on a spiritual level- this is a result of following the beast and its religious system. Just a start with this concept... hope you and others will comment on... Best wishes, Charlie

In Daniel 7:7 the 4th beast is described as having large iron teeth. In Daniel 7:19 the 4th beast is described as having iron teeth AND bronze claws. Why do we see the addition of “these bronze claws” and what is it saying to us?

Sister, continuing... God could easily have simply destroyed Nebuchadnezzar but He had a lesson to teach him and us. He cut down Nebuchadnezzar’s “tree”, but not at the root. God would keep him alive between the two bands- like a type of heaven and hell, or between His grip... He would keep Nebuchadnezzar in that “vise” of (symbolically) iron and brass or in that state for 7 years to show him who he should have recognized. So much of Daniel is symbolic, and these two different bands of metal tells us that He would not destroy him but hold him in a place beyond his ability to escape... until he recognized God.

Yes, thank you! That is exactly what I believe God is telling us about His judgement with Nebuchadnezzar. He is using the tree which Nebuchadnezzar thinks he has built. It is all due to him that the world has prospered. His final “pat on the back” was the point where God would remove his world and show him he can do nothing without Him! These two metal bands symbolize God removing everything (from heaven and below) due to his pride. God had given him a year to repent and recognize it is God who gives us everything! Charlie

Sister, please go to Leviticus 26:19. Here God is telling us that Nebuchadnezzar is indeed subject to His rule and he can do nothing without Him. He is punishing him for his pride. Your thoughts.. Charlie

Sister, I found this in regards to Duet. 33:25.... . As thy day, so shall thy strength be. The words carry a tacit hint, that we have no strength of our own, but have need of strength from above. Come down from your self-esteem: stoop from the notion of your own natural ability: divest yourself of the foolish idea that you can do anything in and of yourself, and come now to the Strong for strength, and ask your Lord to fulfil this promise in your experience. Meaning that Nebuchadnezzar is unable to complete or do anything... but for God ONLY! I think this message might just fit the “bands of iron and brass” —- especially for Nebuchadnezzar.. Will continue.. Charlie

Sister, just wanted to give you my thoughts... which are certainly not completed... 1) Tubal- Caine was a metals smith particularly in iron and brass, 2) Deuteronomy 33:25 speaks of being secured with iron and brass.. I am trying to tie the later first... Thanks, Charlie

Thank you Sister! My first thought was exactly the same, but because the “silver” kingdom was not also shown, I have rejected it. I have two approaches; 1) that they DO represent Greece and Rome but there is a very good reason for it being excluded, or, 2) they do not represent the last two kingdoms, even though they seem to be easily identified with them, and I need to uncover their meaning. This is a tuff one! As of now I am leaning towards the latter but I have no real basis for doing so... Are you aware of any OT Scripture that speak to these two metals? Thanks so much, Charlie

Iamlamad, just below is a cut / paste from your most recent post. Would you mind identifying the “only verse” that speaks of the 7 year covenant? Thank you! “There is only one verse in the entire bible that I know of speaking of the confirming of the 7 year covenant. Jesus never mentioned it. Revelation is silent on it.”