Charlie744

Very nice and you certainly have much knowledge. — not only Daniel but I would assume the NT ! I have NOT studied Revelation at all so I can not comment... the only reasonable response is that I need to complete Daniel before I move forward on to Revelation. It is impossible to reconcile Revelation that is / had been interpreted using much of Daniel when Daniel was interpreted in largely a historical approach. As I mentioned to other members on the site is Daniel will drive Revelation and not the other way around. If Daniel’s interpretations using the currently accepted approach (historical), and they fit nicely with Revelation, then game over! But there is not one interpretation of Revelation that is remotely complete,they all have sizable holes where all skip over, and further, even those that all use the historical approach for Daniel still disagree with each other’s interpretation. The was only way there could possibly be a 2,000 year gap in Daniel ‘s 70 weeks is of 9:26 “he” is not the Messiah but some mythical anti-Christ figure, the covenant was not a gift from God to us, and the abomination figure is also someone other than the Messiah.... Big picture- Daniel is in no way speaking about anyone other than the Messiah —- 9:24 to 9:27 are all about Him... why do people choose not to see Him in His own prophecies? Amyway, thank you for your thoughts! Charlie

Joe, I was just thinking out loud and remembering your comment about Matthew 24:15... Now please understand this is just an unsupported comment -certainly NOT an interpretation... but here goes... My current interpretation for the “ abomination that causes desolation” must be the Messiah: there can be no greater denigration or an abomination than the Jews rejecting their Messiah. As a result of their actions (crucifixion of their Messiah), this WILL cause God to punish the Jews and indeed their Temple, the people themselves and even their land will suffer when the Romans actually salt their land. Now, based on your Matthew 24:15 references, how would or could I possibly reconcile this to the Messiah reference in Daniel? On it’s face, it doesn’t make sense or supports the other !!!!!!’ Thinking out loud now—- The Messiah can represent the “abomination” figure in Matthew but how does He also meet the remainder of 24:15– when you see Him standing in the Holy Place ????? What is the Holy Place? It can never again be the Temple or Sanctuary, even if the Jews were able to construct a 3rd Temple—- it would NEVER be filled with the Glory of God... it would only have value or importance to the Jews-the same folks who rejected the Messiah. So try this on and think about it and perhaps give me your thoughts—- Jesus, was the one who was treated as an “abomination” will indeed stand in the Holy Place when He comes back in His second coming BUT He will indeed stand in the clouds / the air (where He is will be the Holy Place. Then He will certainly take His church to be with Him (both the dead in Christ and those still alive in Christ, but those who are alive AND are without Christ will have to get out of Dodge!! This might satisfy both requirements since it looks back to Daniel to identify just who is or was the “abomination that caused the desolation”, AND the rest of Matthew is met since this will take place at the time of the end. ANY thoughts or comments are appreciated!!! Best wishes, Charlie

Joe, thank you very thmuch for the kind remarks... based on my comments and interpretations, they will be few and far between... but I expected as much. For me, there is no place for attributing “he” to anyone other than the Messiah. Regarding the language around the “new covenant”, there can be only two one covenant, His last and greatest covenant mentioned in Jeremiah, here in Daniel 9, and certainly in the NT - Hebrews 8. It seems the final issue centers on wether the “7 year” language refers to the length of the covenant (7 years), or if the covenant was entered into in the 7 years or Daniel’s last week of the 70 weeks. For me the translation must be in error since there was is no prior discussion, prophecies in the OT of a 7 year covenant or anything remotely close to it. Also, there is nothing in the NT that is entered into or can be linked to a 7 year covenant. The only interpretation for this language is the new covenant mentioned in Jeremiah will be established during the last 7 years. Re is There is a mountain of writings over the past 2,000 years on this particular issue and we have access to almost all of it on the net. Regarding Matthew 24:15... unfortunately, I have not studied Matthew or Revelation at this time. I do understand that what is interpreted in Daniel can NOT contradict or conflict with those books or any other verses in the NT.... but this can not be said for the current interpretations of 9:27! Anyway, thanks for the compliment and please respond to theses discussions on Daniel 9 and 11.... Best wishes, Charlie

RM, there is absolutely no question that you possess a very strong mind and have an abundance of knowledge about the Scriptures... but... Is it possible the new covenant in Jeremiah is the one spoken of in Daniel and the same one in Hebrews? Thanks, Charlie

Spock and RM: the new covenant is mentioned in Jeremiah chapter 31 verses 31 to 34. This is the better covenant established by the Messiah. In Hebrews chapter 8 verses 1 to 13 speaks of this same “new covenant”. How can anyone say the covenant mentioned in 9:27 is not this same covenant? God makes covenant with His People... not some anti-Christ character some 2,000 years in the future. Please read the above and there is so much explanation on this covenant between God and us. Charlie

Spock... just wanted to mention something I wrote in my response to RM earlier... I made a very brief response- “I got nothing” to RM... Please note this was NOT meant to mean “I don’t have an adequate response”. NO, NO! It was meant to convey that after spending so much time and “ink” giving him my thoughts , I could not believe he would comeback with nothing more than the same comment “Scripture says one week”. Meaning I got nothing more to give this guy only to have him comeback with ... no support or dialogue for his position... I’ve had enough! Coupled with My factious short response I hit the “thumbs up” button and selected the “Oy vey” option.... which also reflected my disbelief! Charlie

I am certain you have realized just how many different translations there are.... there at least 10-12 Christian ones (KJ, NKJ, NIV, and so on). I also have been going back and forth with Jewish translations (JPS and two others). What has frustrated me from you the beginning of my study on Daniel is just how different they are... words are translated quite differently, verses are rearranged sometimes completely changing the message, on and on. Sometimes it is necessary to drill down to try and find the correct meaning of a verse... how do you know if YOU or I or someone else has the true meaning????? extremely difficult but that is when it is necessary to step back and look at the context of the verses surrounding / following it / coming after it / does compliment or contradict other verses, and so on. That is why 9:27 is, for me, a perfect example of having someone identifying “he” as other than the Messiah. The entire chapter deals with Him... All the verses 9:24 on speak about Daniel’s 70 weeks and the 6 requirements that The Messiah would fulfill. 9:25 clearly mentions the Messiah and the specific 3 sections of those 70 weeks- These 3 sections were designed by God for very specific reasons- if you notice or match up those things that were completed during each of the first two sections, you can then determine what must be completed on the last week- the 70th week of Daniel... it say Messiah the Prince not the anti-Christ! 9:26 specifically tells us the Messiah will be “cut off” AFTER the 69 th week..., which means what comes after 69? But not for Himself— can anyone deny the Messiah would sacrifice Himself for all of mankind? Could anyone possibly tie this unselfish event to the anti-Christ... I don’t think that is in his character- he takes and lies and destroys!!! 9:26 also tells us the city and the Sanctuary will be destroyed by the people of A prince (pagan Rome), but the reason it would be destroyed is for the punishment of the Jews for rejecting their Messiah AND the Temple and the Sanctuary and the Sacrificial system was no longer necessary- they were all a type of the coming Messiah. 9:27 tells us He will make a covenant with many (those that would believe He was the Messiah). All of this flows so smoothly! The covenant can also be traced back to the prophets (Jeremiah for one). Jeremiah is not interested or speaking about an anti-Christ. I do agree with you that many translations literally read that “he will make a covenant for one week”. On its face it looks exactly like it is only a 1 week Covenant. And this is where the RCC had to corrupt these very complimentary (bad choice of words) words and verses! Just about all scholars and interpreters prior to the 1500’s accepted the papacy was the little horn— all changed after they had to alter the interpretations of chapter 9. So I would ask that you might drill down on the translations of 9:27 both before and after the 1500’s. See if you find the identity and time lines changed. Step back about 30,000 feet and ask yourself if these very specific verses could be speaking of anyone other than the Messiah... Why would ~90% of these last few verses point to the Messiah’s purpose for coming to earth but the “he” is abruptly attributed to someone else? Why is the previous verses specifically speaking of the 3 sections of the 70 weeks only to have someone interpret the most important covenant made by God would represent just a 1 week period? If you are willing there are really only a few words or verses within these 9 that have been misinterpreted... I have seen too many verses that have been altered wether intentionally, by translating errors from Hebrew to English, etc. Take care, Charlie

Thank you very much but I will work out the remaining verses... post v. 33 ?Best wishes, Charlie

Spock, it is apparent that you are sold on the “history” lesson approach, and I did mention that in my message... no problem at all, I understand completely! I certainly will refrain from giving my thoughts on 11 or 9... Have a nice day, Cy

I got nothing!

RM, you probably don’t remember but you have already sent me this presentation/study some time ago (not that long ago). It is absolutely quite clear you have tremendous knowledge and talent in this field of study- and if you could prepare something like this in perhaps one of the most difficult chapters and books of the Bible, I’ll bet you could do the same in any other discipline. But I hope you will forgive me but Daniel 11 is not about AE or the Ptolemy period and their meaningless conflicts or battles. If God wanted to write about the 3rd kingdom conflicts / battles and the most brilliant generals and strategy, He really would have selected Alexander... God could certainly have really impressed us with His prophetic abilities by telling us all about Alexander. He could easily even tell us what Alexander was contemplating before each major campaign. But He did not ... Alexander was in the 3rd kingdom and God really did not give too much “ink” to him in any the chapters in Daniel. There certainly would not be an expectation for Him to spend approximately 30 or more verses in 11 on some minor actors and their minor conflicts that would have NO importance to His prophecies and the coming Messiah. Verses 11:1 to 4 address and end any further discussion of the first three kingdoms... He has provided all of the history that was necessary to get us to the most important kingdom in Daniel- the one where the Messiah would enter the world-in the 4th kingdom! Consequently, 11:5 and on MUST no longer be interpreted on a historical basis. The actors and events that have been identified in Daniel 7: the beast, the 10 kings, the little horn and the 3 plucked up MUST now be the focus in 11... except for 12 which is definitely end times prophecy, there are no other chapters for Him to reveal these actors and what will take place during the next 2,000 years! He would not have us wait until His second coming to reveal the players and their importance... He has provided us with the prophecies to aid us in succeeding in His Plan of Salvation. Chapter 11 must be interpreted in a non-historical manner- a spiritual manner. But I certainly understand that this “approach” goes against EVERY interpretation that has been presented over the past 2,000 years. Everyone has been trying to match these verses (actors and events) to all the history books - but I have not seen ANYONE’s interpretation of 11 that didn’t have a lot of holes in it and could not address those verses that could not match up..(and please don’t ask me to spend hours upon hours going back into the many sites where these studies and papers were found... after reading them it became clear that NO study had been able to adequately match the verses in 11 with our history books. It is all about God and not a history lesson about folks in the 3rd kingdom. And I am smart enough to understand how this comes across to you and perhaps another 20 million who are interested in Daniel. After approximately 7 months trying to find an existing and accepted interpretation fits with 11 ( and this should also give us pause since there are many historical interpretations (accepted) that have some very different thoughts), I decided to mentally scrap all of the current interpretations and step back and ask myself what might God be wanting to reveal to us that would carry us over the next 2,000 years AND must include those actors identified in chapter 7, AND would integrate with the coming Messiah, His crucifixion, rejection by His people, the importance of His new covenant (spoken of by the prophets), the new church, the corruption of His church by the little horn AND those things the little horn would do against His followers, AND those things the little horn would do against God Himself (claiming to be God on earth). ALL of these things are in the message of 11... not some history lesson about folks in the 3rd kingdom. I don’t expect anyone to accept this (yet), but 11 is coming along... finally. Take care, Charlie

I don’t think so! You might want to review the other books on the OT that discuss and offer prophetic verses about the “new covenant”. The only covenants in the OT were established/initiated by God—— Satan or some anti-Christ figure has no covenant making ability or opportunity... He is nothing more than a liar and deceiver. The Bible is not about Satan, although he certainly has done his damage, but God will establish His last covenant with the Jews and of course the gentiles. This new covenant is available to all who believe in Him. So, the prophets like Jeremiah write about this new covenant, and others, why would anyone attribute the covenant to anyone else? The covenant will be established and fulfilled during the Messiah’s last week (Daniel’s 70th week) on earth. The covenant is for all until He returns- it is not a 7 year covenant and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone other is Han the Messiah! Daniel chapter 9 is about Daniel’s lengthy prayer to God for forgiveness where he is acting on behalf of all the Jews (this step is demanded by God per Leviticus). Daniel then continues with 9:24 to 9:27 which is ALL about the Messiah— God is not having Daniel write all these prophetic verses about the Messiah which have been mentioned by earlier prophets... this entire 7 year covenant by the / some anti-Christ figure some 2,000 years in the future was a very successful campaign by the RCC to remove the papacy from the label of the little horn. If the earlier prophets who spoke of the new covenant also mentioned it would have anything to do or related to a “anti-Christ character, you would not have a problem identifying it so. The Messiah would complete or fulfill all 6 requirements of 9:24 and also is the subject of 9:25 onward. There is also NT verses that speak of the new covenant between God and His people- a better covenant. What covenant are they referring to? It is the one established by the Messiah and it had to be made / established by the Messiah PRIOR to His crucifixion. So, I would suggest you go into all the verses in the OT that speak about this new covenant (post King David time/ books), and follow them all the way to Daniel and then to the Messiah and THEN follow it forward into the NT books to see how they all come together and fit like a glasses glove. However, I am convinced that many will see what they either need to see, or what they want to see, or what they refuse to see. Daniel is about our God and the unbelievable covenant He was willing to make with us... The little horn has done so much damage to His Word and to His church. This terrible campaign by the Jesuit priest Ruberi or Ribera around the 1520’s or so was marketed aggressively throughout the RCC church... and also found acceptance in the Protestant Church —- but that is not too surprising since they have also accepted the changing of the Sabbath to the 1st day of the week—- “he will think to change times and laws”! Take care and NO, I certainly don’t expect you to change your mind based on the above—- YOU are going to have to do this yourself ... and before that could happen, you have to open your mind to want to consider the covenant is from / between God. Take care, Charlie

Ok, I have NO business in this debate since I have absolutely no time in studying Revelation (I mean NONE), AND I have not read the previous 49 pages of comments so far... so this will most likely prove to be of very limited value... I believe there is one thing I have learned from other books in the Bible- God does repeat His teaching “tools”, if you will. One may find a story in the OT that reveals His methods or patterns or steps and where He will apply / use them again...and this will be on a “corporate” level or on an individual basis — this may not be the most appropriate use of this term but it could be labeled as a “type”. Now regarding the Tribulation (pre or post, etc.), if I would shoot an arrow in the air (again, without studying Revelation), I would be willing to bet that the “end times”, the “tribulation period”, and all that will take place more might mirror to a very large extent to the Exodus story. Perhaps the tribulation is similar to the last week plagues in Egypt (no, not the same kind of insects, or frogs, etc., but represents a difficult time), and then there is a decision that each must make before the Lord returns... Those that obey God will leave Egypt (earth), and just as during The Exodus it will include both Jews and Gentiles. Further, and also as in the Exodus story, Satan (Pharaoh) will find it necessary to make a final battle (his last attempt) to destroy everything only to be completely destroyed and thrown into the sea (sea of fire). The “steps” identified in Exodus should / might mirror those at the end times. When I (hopefully) can study Revelation, I fully expect to see (interpret) events that He has shown us before—- He already has done that many times! Just a thought, best wishes, Charlie

Thank you very much!! I saw the “thumbs up” circle but I thought that was the result of someone’s actions... not the “options button” used to drop down the underlying selections.. Wow, that was more difficult for me than chapter 11!!! Go figure! Regarding the second issue: if you go to a specific forum- Prophetic forum as an example, there is the listing of “titles” identifying the subject matter... In this particular forum, the 1st title is identified as “Pre-Tribulation...”. To the left of this title is a specific solid dark circle... (most show this). Some also have or had a lightly shaded star (I believe my subject had this for a long time), however, I noticed the star is gone and now there is nothing showing adjacent to the title... Hope this is much better for you to understand and thank you folks again, appreciated

e, thank you very much for the “react” vote... Now, if you do not mind, how does one access the option to create or vote, if you will, for a “thumbs up” or another ? Secondly, I noticed that most subject lines posts have a solid circle adjacent to the title... Others may have a light colored star and some may not have any symbol at all.. Do you know what these mean or represent? Thank, Charlie

Ok, go to google and type in: geneology of Jesus, you will see maybe 1/2 down the page a site — Bible.org and the title is “Lesson 14 re: His genealogy. There are many writings on this, Charlie

I apologize but I was hoping for just alittle more than of your thoughts on this... would you mind? Thank you again, Charlie

Thanks again!! Regarding YOUR concern about the Luke v. Matthew genealogy... would you mind expanding on this? Thanks Charlie

Thank you very much for your prompt response! I think it might be safe to say that He does not do anything without a purpose and reason—- there is a message there for us... I am just exploring this and would enjoy learning about some of the opinions from the talented group within this site... Thanks, Charlie

I would like some thoughts and opinions on a specific subject within Daniel. Daniel’s 3 friends were required by Nebuchadnezzar to bow to the golden opportunity image when the music began to play. If they did not they would be placed in the furnace. Question: Within this chapter (3), Daniel makes a point of listing the individual instruments. Three times they are listed however in one of the listings he fails to list one of the six. What do you think is the reason why this one instrument was not listed, AND, why was it NOT listed in the specific place- only 1 of the 3 times they were listed? PS: For me, everything He does has a very important purpose / reason, whether something is included or excluded. Perhaps the message speaks to having only 5 of the 6 instruments play (at that specific time in the story) telling us it would not be accepted by Him (5 of 6), since it was associated with an image and He has special uses and purpose for music? Thank you, Charlie

SONshine, I already have done the research on this issue.... Best wishes, Charlie

Disaste, just read your following post... 1) I don’t know how you interpret these comments... I simply said that even IF a 3rd Temple is built, it is not important to God. Actually, what it would continue to tell Him is they (Jews) STILL have not accepted Him and they STILL yearn for the old Temple times.. I am NOT speaking for God— He has made it quite clear that the Temple and the sacrificial system has been done away with... 2) I do not believe I have written or said anything that should have caused you to respond as you have! If I was not clear in my response or if you wanted to drill down to investigate and understand what I was saying, it would be easy to ask a question or two and confirm your initial understanding. That doesn’t seem to be your way! Sorry for that, Charlie

I believe much of what you said: 1) what would you say is more “abominable” than His crucifixion? 2) Jesus was certainly not crucified in the Temple or holy place! 3) when the Temple would be inspected by the High Priest and found unclean, he would return another time for a second inspection. If found again to be unholy, the Temple was to be torn down and the “stones” be cast outside the gate... Leviticus. Jesus certainly came to the Temple twice and found it unclean and He (stone the builders rejected) was crucified outside the gate. 4) your correct, His sacrifice was and is the greatest gift He could give for/to us! It was also the most horrible act or abomination man (Jews) could have possibly done to God and their Messiah. It certainly was the most detestable thing we could do to Him! It was the most loving act the Messiah could have made for our salvation. 5) It certainly was God’s Plan from the beginning of time... and NOTHING happens on earth or above that is without His consent. 6) His sacrifice is available to ALL the world for those who believe in Him. Now, having said these things, there should be no doubt that His perfect sacrifice would trump all and any other possible act or event in history. 7) As a result of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah, He would indeed punish them and their “actions” would “cause” their “desolation”. Charlie

SONshine, let me ask you just one question please: 1) in chapter 9, Daniel writes about a “covenant”. Ignoring any other terms attached to this word ( ignore time, etc.), would you please tell me if there are any Scriptures in the OT (Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc.) which speak to or about a new “covenant” that will be established with the Jews? Thank you, Charlie

SONshine, that is certainly true- no argument whatsoever! Now, given that principle, please tell me why there are SO many different interpretations at the chapter level, the verses level and also found frequently at even the individual word level? Just because you can make the overall general ( and true) statement, it does NOT make YOUR comments or interpretations accurate or correct... I don’t believe you have understood the comments made in my recent posting... tell me, what is stopping me from making the exact same claim against you—- I could make the generalization you just made and then claim your interpretations do not agree with those found in subsequent books or verses? NOTHING! Scripture never contradicts Scripture... but it you misinterpret Scripture that misinterpretation will corrupt the next Scripture interpretation. For me, 9:26 to 9:27 is so transparent and clear as to it’s intended meaning... I will be able to apply / use this information and interpretation in the manner it was intended and with other messages in the Scriptures where they may be referenced or found... and I will be comfortable knowing (for me) that my interpretation of Scripture does not contradict my interpretations of later verses in the Scriptures. Consequently, I would meet the exact same threshold or requirement that you would make using your own interpretations... But I don’t think you seem to see that! You seem to guarantee YOUR interpretations because you can make a general statement that your interpretations do not contradict your own interpretations.. Which is exactly why you need to go back to square 1 and study Daniel with a clean starting point— not influenced by NT interpretations or those that have obviously corrupted many Scriptural verses / interpretations (which are then used to apply to those OT verses that are still in disagreement among the scholars. Thank you, Charlie