Charlie744

Thank you Doug! I certainly will watch your video and I am sure I will learn from it!!! I agree that the little horn in 7 is the same as in 8. But before we move the the other 2 actors can you comment on the beast? Thank you again, Charlie

Well, I am not sure there may be enough interest within this site for folks to want to consider these 3 actors without looking to Revelation. However, I will try once again.. and perhaps take each actor one at a time and see if and when things / interpretations might go in this or that direction. Daniel chapter 2 clearly identifies 4 separate kingdoms that will come upon the earth. The first 3 are identified for all to see and accept. There is no intermission or separations between any of the kingdoms shown in the metal man image. From our history books, we clearly see that the next kingdom after Greece is the beginning of the Roman Empire. I am sure everyone student of ancient history will agree that there are many cases where kingdoms, powers have come and gone without an immediate new mega power to follow..... And this can be seen after the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, and any of the major empires / powers during the past 1000 years. That is the same situation we find between the 3rd and 4th kingdom..... there are groups or factions that will attempt to fill the power vacuum as the 4 generals of Alexander attempted to do..... but they certainly were never a kingdom or empire. They were just the areas remaining "mafia family" - large remaining group of thugs wanting their own world kingdom - never happened. The next true kingdom and empire was pagan Rome. They certainly met all the physical characteristics of the metal man image - iron, legs that could and would travel anywhere and everywhere to conquer. These legs had NO concern for other people - they were nothing more than powerful legs stamping down and crushing anyone in their way. No heart, no minding of anyone - just an iron crushing force that traveled everywhere on the known earth. We also know that NO kingdom or people CAN EVER LAST FOREVER - NOT EVEN THE US WILL. But this will be the last kingdom on earth= this is not a contradiction since this "beast" as it will be identified in chapter 7 will now be shown as an animal that can not be represented by any animal on earth. It will be the final kingdom but it must have to change and alter its appearance throughout the next 2,ooo years. This "beast" will have all the evil / nasty characteristics of the previous 3 previous animals but it will be even more vicious and diverse than their combined ferocity. Personally, I can not see any other entity besides pagan Rome to represent this 4th kingdom which will continue for some 600 years. So, if we just discuss the 4th kingdom that must come AFTER Greece and not look any further than the verses in Daniel, does anyone wish to weigh in? PS. pagan Rome did come out oft he northern most territory of the post Alexander empire. Hope to hear from you folks - yea or nea! Charlie

Great point... really!!! But until and if one is willing to try another approach one can never get to that conclusion. As I mentioned, I came into Daniel without any understanding of it... I read the interpretations of the scholars who have provided the currently “accepted interpretations and meanings” of Daniel and came away with a very clear realization THEY had many differences even between themselves. I believed they all came to many of their conclusions because they looked to Revelation to support their interpretations. I did not want to study Revelation to understand Daniel when everyone told me to study Daniel first before I attempted to learn Revelation. If I had mirrored their approach I would certainly be forced to accept their interpretations... but why take that approach if I had already noticed their discrepancies and incomplete understandings in both books (currently)? Daniel is more than capable of speaking for itself without looking to a book written some 600 years later... but folks are simply content with reading and accepting what others have already written... and as you know, if you repeat something enough times, verbally or in writing and now certainly through today’s mediums, it is accepted as truth... But thanks for your thoughts, Charlie

Very well said and I agree! But we also should not ignore that there is information in Daniel that speaks to those living in different times. They would not need to rely or even have access to a book yet written. There would not be a reason for Paul to concern himself with the end times and Revelation (not yet written of course), but he would / should have been able to recognize pagan Rome as the 4th kingdom, the coming Messiah in Daniel 9:24 and so on... (but even someone as brilliant as Paul could not see His Messiah in the way that He arrived). I can assure you we would get a completely different understanding of Daniel if we ignored Revelation and all the already accepted interpretations of Daniel-even though there are more holes and discrepancies within their own interpretations between both books. But I do understand how difficult it is for any of us to let go of something we feel so strongly about... thanks, Charlie

Thanks dougg, I understand why you and so many others would not want this constraint placed on them in order to try and identify the 3 actors in Daniel without looking to Revelation.... it is because that is what EVERYONE (well maybe only 99%) of those interested in Daniel rely on Revelation and NOT Daniel ALONE. So I simply asked them to try and take this approach and see if there is a very different outcome ..... and there is...... Everyone is intellectually, emotionally and certainly in many cases financially invested in the "current interpretation" of Daniel. When I first started to read / learn / think about Daniel I read all the papers / interpretations / opinions, etc., of so many scholars and today's theologians, commentators, authors, TV personalities and evangelists, etc., and they essentially mirrored each other. There were / are one or two minor groups or folks who have some disagreements with them but even they do not stray too far from the "accepted view". Since I had NO previous understanding of Daniel and certainly Revelation, I came in cold and read their thoughts, compared them to others - even those within this "majority of opinion" and realized just how many contradictions THEY had between them! This then became an opportunity to ask why THEY had such disagreement among themselves and I had one advantage - I did not or have any reason to look to Revelation for the possible answers..... Why - EVERYONE INSTRUCTED ME THAT IF I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND REVELATION I SHOULD FIRST STUDY DANIEL.....and I did just that! Now I have found that everyone in the current majority relies on Revelation to understand Daniel. So, if you are willing to take this approach, which is not unreasonable, we can try and identify each actor by reading the verses in Daniel alone. Daniel speaks to 3 different periods - obviously the truly historical period from captivity to the Greek kingdom. Then it speaks to the coming Messiah / the 4th kingdom period and His Plan of Salvation (the time of Jesus beginning with pagan Rome and includes the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD), and then there is a 3rd period which is when the Word of God - His Gospel is to be spread to all the world - the Messiah had come, was crucified and rose from the dead. He sent His Holy Spirit to us who would be with us and never leave us. But it also contained ALL the events and actors that would soon come to power to corrupt this Word of God. This is the most important reading in Daniel - not concerned with another 100 or so wars or conflicts throughout the next 2,000 years -they will always take place - nothing knew to mankind and there is no real value for Daniel to write about them -whether it is a conflict some 200, 1000 or even 2,000 years after the crucifixion..... one was or conflict is no different than the other even if it is as horrible as the world wars in the 20th century. The verses in Daniel that speak to the conflicts after His crucifixion focus on a spiritual warfare - His Word, His sacrifice, His Plan of Salvation to both Jew and Gentile against those "beast" and the "little horn" who are only interested in THEIR comfort, their power, their way of life, their plan or identification of success, their worldly views and practices, anything other than what He preached. This is the final battle, not a China, Russia, Islam, EU, etc., they have been around for thousands of years -just in a different name or nationality, etc. Daniel is ONLY A HISTORY BOOK FOR THE FIRST 5 OR SO CHAPTERS, THEN IT BEGINS TO MOVE IN THIS DIRECTION - FOCUSING ON HIS PLAN OF SALVATION NOT ANOTHER HISTORY LESSON THAT FOR THE MOST PART WE HAVE MATCHED OR PARTIALLY MATCHED TO OUR HISTORY BOOKS. So, if you are interested in identifying these actors without Revelation .... fine, if not that is okay as well, Charlie

Well, I thank you for your thoughts..... Charlie

RM, thanks for your comments! I agree with you- the little horn is a man. This is the one who claims to be God on earth, the one who believes he has been given the “keys to the kingdom”. This is he who is the head of papal Rome. Pagan Rome is definitely the 4th kingdom but of course it does not remain as such over the next 2,000 years. It is, regardless of its form throughout the coming years, is still the “beast”. Before you jump to the end times maybe we can stay with the beginning of the 4th kingdom. This is that kingdom that comes after Greece. This is the last kingdom that will continue until the end times. Out from this kingdom or “beast” will arise the 10 horns. Then another “little horn” will also come out of the “beast”. This occurs after the 3rd kingdom of Greece. I don’t see how you can say that... the 4th kingdom is the “beast”, the horns arise or come out from this 4th kingdom and especially clear (to me), is this little horn attempts to be God on earth and as papal Rome replaces pagan / military Rome. The “little horn” continues on to the end times as does the “beast” (whatever form / power it takes on throughout the coming centuries). I can not comment on this ... however I can assure you that I have identified all 3 actors that are mentioned/spoken of in Daniel. ALL 3 came after the 3rd kingdom of Greece and the 4th kingdom is no different... each comes right after the previous kingdom. The only difference is the 4th kingdom remains until the end times where God will destroy it along with all who opposed Him. Now, if you (not you personally) can not accept or see the beast and the little horn is pagan Rome and the papacy (pope), respectively, there is absolutely NO reason to identify the 10 horns! I agree here.. as mentioned there are many messages, characteristics, patterns, etc., to extract from the 3 separate symbols / images identifying the 4 kingdoms. Each kingdom has its own progression from 2 to 7 to 8. And each image has their own progression from the 1st to the 4th kingdom.... the 4th kingdom is the most important and moves from the physical in 2 to the physical / spiritual in 8. And by spiritual I mean that the 3 actors are no longer a war between Unfortunately, we disagree on this, yet I can definitely agree that your opinion and other similar interpretations are the mainstream. But as I mentioned in my earlier posts, the focus in the 4th kingdom is no longer about man v man and the conflicts and wars between whatever group, region, religious affiliation, political powers that happen to be in power over the following 2,000 years. The focus of the 4th kingdom must be about God’s Plan of Salvation. How the powers of the “beast” (again, any worldly power), and the “little horn” (RCC/Pope), continues to corrupt God’s Word and His Plan for us. There are only two factors we should concern ourselves with in Daniel’s 4th kingdom: those powers that arise during the coming years that take man away from God- promotes gold, silver, power and control, warring and murder and everything worldly! This is the “beast” that can not be shown or compared to any earthly animal- it does represent all the 3 previous animals mentioned in Daniel and then some! But the little horn is the one who goes after God Himself! He professes to he God on earth, can forgive sins, changes God’s laws and times... this is the papacy and these are the two powers attempting to keep man from His Plan of Salvation. It is a spiritual war ... but this does not mean that man will not continue to have wars! But that is what man does... God wants us to focus on Him... the 4th kingdom and its 3 actors are involved in a spiritual conflict to either accept Jesus as our Savior And Messiah and keep His commandments or follow the world and all it offers.. Not only do we see a progression with the symbols and images in 2,7 & 8, but also from chapter 1 to 12.... both are moving from a purely physical world and all their concerns to the real issue or concern (spiritual) which is the saving of man through His Plan. Everyone tries to identify China, Russia, Islam or Syria, Iraq, the EU, etc., as the various actors in both Revelation AND then take them back to Daniel. This is so wrong! Without looking to Revelation we should interpret Daniel... THEN we will be able to carry it forward to Revelation. The reason folks look to Revelation to try and interpret Daniel is because they have completely given up on identifying these 3 actors AND other significant issues in Daniel- there are about 10 major misinterpretations in today’s understanding of Daniel especially chapter 11! Again, everyone looks to our history books to try and identify the actors and conflicts around the post Alexander period... but this is so wrong. It is ALL about what takes place in the 4th kingdom and that begins with pagan Rome. The focus is how we (the world) receives, accepts, corrupts, etc., His Plan of Salvation which of course is THE CROSS.

Dennis, here is my thought while I was studying Daniel - and specifically when I was trying to drill down on Belshazzar and the writing on the wall incident in chapter 5. In my opinion there were two components or factors that tied into the downfall of Babylon which occurred at the completion of the 70 year prophecy found in Jeremiah .... and God certainly knows how to pull everything together perfectly. It is up to us to try and interpret / find HIS meaning in all things. Without the Holy Spirit we would have no chance of succeeding! The two components of Belshazzar's demise are an internal and an external enemy or conflict. Externally, Belshazzar thought he had absolutely no worries if the walls of Babylon could possibly be breached. No one has had any success and everyone believed this city was impossible to conquer - whether by force or surrounding it with massive number of troops and try and starve them or prevent them from accessing their water requirements. But we all know through our history books that the Mede-Persians did have success in taking Babylon and probably without even shooting an arrow. But I am interested in the internal power or conquerer which is the reason I was asking for some assistance within this site to lock down the timing of the 70 year prophecy - both views; a Jewish calculation ending with Cyrus' decree and a Babylonian calculation. Here is the issue: As you are aware, despite all the evidence available and known to Belshazzar regarding the One True God (the God of the Israelites and the God his grandfather, Nebuchadnezzar who had to learn the hard way, if you will, he refused to accept and honor the God of the people taken from Judah. And here is where I believe the 70 year prophecy plays out for the Babylonians and specifically Belshazzar - I believe Belshazzar sealed his doom when he brought forward the Holy vessels held in storage from when Nebuchadnezzar brought them from Judah some 70 years earlier. But what Nebuchadnezzar failed to do was to dishonor those same Holy vessels. He may have simply placed them in storage during those many years where he tested and lost to God, but once he accepted the God of Israel, I am sure he kept them in place so as not to dishonor them. Now we see Belshazzar come to reign and he ignores the history and evidence of the One True God - he certainly is aware of all the stories as well as the 70 year prophecy when the Jews would return back to Judah. Consequently, I believe he had calculated the end of the 70 years but he used an incorrect starting date.... this is why I need the Jewish starting date since that is the correct starting period. We know for certain that one year after Belshazzar was killed and Cyrus took command, he gave the decree to allow the Jews to return. However, I believe Belshazzar was under the impression that the 70 year prophecy had just been met and since he was still in power and the Jews had no chance of being allowed to return under his reign, he completely discounted the Jewish God and felt quite comfortable ignoring their God and this prophecy in particular. Consequently, he would bring forth those sacred vessels and have everyone drink from them during his extremely large feast. This feast of his would now celebrate two things: that there was no one who could possibly conquer Babylon from the outside walls and also that he would indeed be the most powerful king on earth AND would no longer have to fear or concern himself with this false God of the Jews. I believe he was simply one year early in his calculations. As soon as he brought forth the sacred vessels we have the "handwriting on the wall" incident ensuring he would be destroyed. Within hours the Medes-Persians would enter into Babylon and conquer the city. I was asking folks to assist me with the verses in Daniel that reveal a "timing difference" - where in chapter 1 we learn that Daniel spent the first 3 years in the Babylonian college program where he learned everything Babylonian and the verse in chapter 2 where Nebuchadnezzar brought Daniel forth and mentioning it was his second year he reigned..... was this the error factor in the 70 year calculation used by Belshazzar and his astrologers resulting in a one year earlier error? Hope to hear back with your thoughts, Charlie

Yes, the 70 years back from the Cyrus decree will / should identify the date / event that took place. And once that is identified it will / should easily be able to look at how the Babylonians would have calculated the 70 years! Charlie

Dennis, thanks a lot! I think it is safe to say that the end period of the 70 years is when Cyrus delivered his decree to allow the Jews to return home. So, if we walk backwards 70 years what do we come to? Is this when Daniel is taken into captivity- first wave? Is it the last wave when Neb. destroyed the Temple some years later? Does the difference mentioned in Daniel (chapters 1 and 2) where Daniel had already been in Babylon for 3 years and where it tells us that in the 2nd year of Nebs. reign he called for Daniel? It is confusing but like William mentioned, this has been studied by many scholars over the years and someone might have a strong answer to this... Charlie

Thank you... obviously I never heard of this or other possible reconciliations between this discrepancy. So, are we able to determine the number of years from the beginning of Neb’s beginning reign to the decree by Cyrus? Does that tie into 70 years or 71 years? When do the Jews begin their 70 start date? Has anyone worked this back from Cyrus’s decree to an event - first wave or last wave Of Jews to Babylon? Thank you, Charlie

Great stuff William! So, if you agree the ending point is when Cyrus makes his decree to allow the Jews to return then if we count back 70 years what is that date - not a simple 70 minus some date (whether it is 537 or 536, etc.), but what event at that time? Was it at the first wave Neb had taken the Jews to Babylon? Was it when the land was truly desolate (I believe this may have been the last wave)? In Daniel chapter 2 it tells us that “in the second year of the reign of Neb..... “ BUT Daniel was already in Babylon at least 3 years???? So there seems to be some confusion here as to when the 70 years start! I think this “discrepancy” is purposeful! It is or maybe telling us there ARE TWO calculations for us to consider- a 70 year calculation for the Jews and another mistakingly made by the Babylonians. I believe these two 70 year periods are 1 year apart and I would like to try and confirm this through all the talent and knowledge within this site- so many have a clear and deep understanding of the timeline and events than myself and I am sure they are already quite familiar with this... Charlie

Ok and thanks but no more Revelation please... ?, Charlie

Thank you but I am not sure what question this addresses... Charlie

Thanks again PuP, but I believe you keep bringing Revelation into this ... (and as mentioned, everyone does this and this prevents us from identifying these 3 actors outside of Daniel). I agree with your understanding of Daniel 2:44 when Jesus will destroy the image and conquer all kingdoms. But let’s get back to the 4th kingdom- doesn’t pagan Rome follow the Greek kingdom? If not, who comes RIGHT AFTER Greece? Secondly, the 10 horns arises out from the “beast”. So isn’t this beast the 4th kingdom? I DO recognize how difficult it is to try and ignore Revelation here... I was able to do it because I was unfamiliar with both Daniel AND Revelation — when I trying to understand Daniel and asked questions, EVERYONE responded to verses in Revelation (only), which did not make sense to me (became a type of circular reasoning), and MY interpretations of some difficult verses in Daniel could not be reconciled with their responses from Revelation... So if we can keep Revelation out of this particular exercise we might be able to identify these 3 actors within Daniel. Thank you again Charlie

Thank you PuP... I am glad you are interested in responding! As mentioned, I do not want to bring in Revelation since we will “bend” our attempt to identify these actors in Daniel to meet their verses. Yes, there can not be any contradictions between the two but we must exclude Revelation. Having said that, agree there are 3 separate actors— so the beast can not be the 10 horns but to try and construct some constraints here .... Do you agree the 10 horns come out of the beast and is the beast begin as “pagan Rome”? Doesn’t pagan Rome come right after Greece as the 4th kingdom? If so, then we have one actor identified (pagan Rome) AND it’s timing- around 200 BC? Do you agree with this? Thank you Charlie

Thanks and I am looking forward to your response! Charlie

Thanks for responding and I hope you can / will offer your thoughts... (and please, no Revelation as proof or source), but looking at this as if you lived around 600 AD. Also, and I forgot to mention it in the original post... I believe just about most folks identified the little horn as the papacy PRIOR to the counter reformation efforts around 1500 AD by the Jesuits.... Thanks, Charlie

As everyone knows, Daniel provides us with interesting and changing symbols in these 3 chapters for the 4 kingdoms that will take place before the second coming. He uses a metal image in 2, and animals in both 7 and 8. There are progressions to be interpreted not only from the north to south (kingdoms), but also from east to west. So Daniel is providing us with 3 characteristics or features for each kingdom (east to west), and also 3 different means of conquering or changes to the next kingdom (north to south). This certainly provides or offers a lot of information for us to unpack and interpret. Specifically, it is the 4th kingdom that has everyone's attention and especially the 3 actors that are mentioned / identified, and like the 4th kingdom itself, these 3 actors are quite unusual and mysterious and extremely difficult to identify. And as a direct result, many or perhaps most have placed these 3 actors some 2,000 years after the crucifixion. So the purpose of this post is to try and identify these 3 actors and the period(s) they may be found. 1) Does everyone agree the 4th kingdom in Daniel (all 3 chapters) begins after the Greek empire as pagan Rome? And if so, can we also agree this kingdom REMAINS until the second coming? (certainly not as pagan or even papal Rome but it will morph into many diverse powers and appearances but because the symbol is a "beast" where there is no animal on earth to compare it to, it seems to have all the characteristics and more than the other 3 previous kingdoms combined! And I believe this is purposeful - it represents a composite of all mankind and its coming and even changing powers with an emphasis that it operates or comes to operate (regardless of borders) under the evils of man (even though we will never eliminate the "legal country borders", that is not important. The important take away is that all men, regardless of country and boundaries will act in an identical manner - greed, power, murder, all truly worldly ways. We always interpret Daniel and especially Revelation from man's viewpoint (a 6 foot level or a worldly or physical level). But I believe as we progress from Daniel 1 to 12, we should begin to interpret Daniel in a much more spiritual manner than trying to identify people and events that may seem to match those in our history books. So, is this 4th kingdom or the "beast" pagan Rome (beginning)? 2) Daniel 2's metal image shows the 4th kingdom coming after the belly / thighs of the Greek kingdom has having 2 strong iron legs and feet of iron and clay. It ends with 10 toes also of iron and clay. I think it is safe to say that most folks agree these 10 toes morph or are the same as the 10 horns that come out of the "beast" mentioned above (pagan Rome if y0u are in agreement). So this means (to me) they are / maybe in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the legs and feet! But because this 10 toes or horns are / have been impossible to identify as an entity or group some 2,000 years ago, we have thrown this actor into our still future. Since we can not find 10 powers or kingdoms in our history books, it does make sense to interpret their arrival later on but they still will come out of this "beast". And here we are 2,000 years later trying to determine what 10 powers or nations will make up these 10 horns.......Unfortunately, and as mentioned above, we continue to look at these verses in Daniel at a 6 foot level; trying to see a physical group or power that will come together. All our attention is focused on the future and not the past. As the symbols in Daniel for the 4th kingdom move both east to west and north to south, don't we begin to see the verses becoming less physical and worldly and more spiritual for us to interpret? The reason we have to throw these actors into the future is not because they belong there (better term is arise or reveal themselves then), but because we have tried to match these actors to our history books and failed to find them.... this is NOT because they did not arise or were there some 2.000 years ago, but we did not see that God was now telling us to see them as He sees them - not a physical power or kingdom (s), but how they relate to HIS kingdom and Plan of Salvation of man. He has already conquered evil, death and could have easily just made a thought and destroyed Rome or any enemy of the Jews.... but in these later chapters of Daniel (4th kingdom), He is speaking about"spiritual" powers and warfare - we still are looking for more physical powers and wars to match to these later verses. So, who or what are these 10 toes or horns that arise / come out of the 4th beast? They certainly MUST be present at the end times but when is their arrival or beginning? And here is a major issue (I believe), because they are so difficult to identify we look to Revelation to try and identify them way back in Daniel. I believe this is a significant error... yes they MUST NOT contradict each other, but Daniel teaches us Revelation and not the reverse (cart before the horse). 3) the final actor being the "little horn". Many believe they have properly identified the little horn as papal Rome or more specifically the Papacy (for me there is no doubt he is the little horn - whether you label it as the Catholic Church, the entire organization, the papacy, etc., but the little horn who has eyes like a man....... is the papacy). So if this is acceptable, and we understand they came to power after pagan Rome around 400 to 500 AD (in other words slowly but surely), that would indicate the 10 horns mentioned above must have "been on the scene" PRIOR to the little horn since they disposed of 3 of the horns rather quickly. Most have placed the little horn still into the future along with the beast and the 1o horns with the little horn destroying 3 of the 10 kingdoms that did not go along with the practices or thinking of the little horn - once again, a completely physical or worldly interpretation at a 6 foot level. So, is this little horn the papacy or papal Rome and continues until this day and meets all the criteria found in Daniel - corrupts the Word of God, contends they are God on earth, can forgive sins, change HIS times and laws. etc.? I believe he is the little horn and therefore places the 10 horns or toes before 500 AD. This means, if correct, that ALL 3 actors arrived or were on scene either at the time of the crucifixion or soon after (500 AD), AND most importantly, all 3 must and will continue until the second coming. Finally, there is ONE constraint here - you can NOT look to ANY verse in Revelation for the answers to the identity of these 3 actors!!!!!!!!!! You MUST look for them as though you around say 600 AD........ There you have the entire Tanakh at your disposal, you have the NT (but can not access Revelation UNTIL these 3 actors are identified), AND you have an understanding of the ACTUAL historical events up to 600 AD. NO CHEATING ALOUD - IGNORE REVELATION AS A POSSIBLE SOURCE OR EXPLANATION TO INTERPRET DANIEL. I hope there is some interest in this topic and will / can accept the manner it is presented.... there is a reason for everything. We can take each actor one at a time or not..... thank you, Charlie

Jeremiah prophesied the Jews (Israel) would be in captivity in Babylon for 70 years. I believe the end of this period was in the year after Cyrus conquered Babylon and Belshazzar was killed. Some identify this date between 535 to 539 BC. If the event causing the end of the 70 years is accurate / correct, when is the event that begins this period? There maybe a few interpretations based on whether the punishment or banishment is on the people (their captivity for 70 years), is on the land (the land must sit idle for 70 years), or a counting on the actual number of years in captivity (the must be in "Babylonian" captivity). From the perspective of the Jews and Jeremiah - So,the begin date or more importantly, the begin "event" is what I am trying to learn. If we travel 70 years back in time from the Cyrus decree, what is the "event"? Is it when Daniel along with the first wave are taken? Is it the 2nd or final wave of Jews taken away and where the Temple is completely destroyed (3rd wave)? From the perspective of the Babylonians (specifically Belshazzar) = And how would this beginning "event" be seen from their captors? If asked, what would they say is the beginning of the 70 years prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures (they certainly were aware of the prophecy and timing). I don't believe the starting points are the same for the two parties, and this could have significant consequences (or why else would God have Daniel draw our attention to Daniel 1:1? Hope you talented folks can offer some of your thoughts on this..... thanks in advance, Charlie

Joe, I don't want to start and take this post in a new direction but I would like to discuss with you the interpretations MOST COMMONLY FOUND / ACCEPTED in Daniel (which unfortunately I do not follow). Anyway, I think everyone would agree that there are many verses within Daniel that speak to our understanding of Revelation, consequently if we get Daniel wrong, we definitely will get Revelation wrong. Now regarding Daniel's prophecies in 7 & 8 there are 3 actors, if you will, that are identified; the beast, the 10 horns and the little horn, and they all arrive on the scene in that order. As mentioned above, I believe almost all contend these 3 actors arrive "on the scene" at the end times and NOT some 2,000 years ago. And if this is correct, then they have a significant impact on our interpretation of Revelation, If all 3 arrive some 2,000 years ago, then Revelation must be completely re-thought. 1) the beast is the 4th kingdom in Daniel's book and arrives after Greece, meaning it is pagan Rome. This beast will begin after Greece and continue on in many forms until the end times. 2) the 10 horns that come out of this beast are next and therefore come before the little horn. So, if the little horn is papal Rome and specifically the papacy and who will also continue to the end times, that would tell us the 10 horns must have also come onto the scene and prior to the little horn, 3) the 10 horns arrive prior to the little horn since he disposes of 3 of the 10 soon after he (papacy / papal Rome) comes to power. So, before this interpretation continues, and WITHOUT turning to Revelation (which is what everyone has done) to interpret these 3 actors in Daniel, can you / would you mind commenting on the above? Thanks, Charlie

OK... I would like to ask you folks a question regarding this "dilemma" issue..... First, can someone confirm for me the date when the 70 years in Babylon captivity ended? Is this in the first year after Belshazzar lost his reign? Secondly, can you confirm the start of this 70 year period? Thanks, Charlie

This is a great topic and there are no shortage of interesting comments; some focusing on the spiritual and others more physical - chips, other methods of identification and control measures. My initial ATTEMPT is to try and identify the specific pieces in this verse (try and break down the individual components and then hopefully put it all together). They might be: 1) Just who is this beast? 2) What might the verse mean by "free and bond, rich or poor....etc."? 3) Mark on the hand and forehead? IF I have identified these correctly, then what might be the answers? I believe this "beast" is the same entity identified in Daniel 7. This is the 4th kingdom which can not be compared to any animal on earth. It is a composite of all types of animals - leopards, tigers and bears, etc., and all kingdoms on earth. I do not believe God is interested in man's drawing of his legal boundaries or property lines. Man, whether he is physically in Germany, the US or China is not important or relevant to Him and the end time. This beast represents all mankind and its practices - militarily, economically, religiously, etc. We are ALL completely involved in the same WORLDLY exercise that more and more excludes God. This "beast" surfaced after Alexander and began as pagan Rome but has continued to grow and spread their worldly ways for the past 2,000 years. Names of countries, people and legal boundary lines are meaningless..... we are ALL quite wordly. Consequently, this "beast"is the same as in Daniel 7... which essentially means it all what the world has morphed into regardless of language, religion, economics and physical location on the planet. 2) Free or bond, rich or poor.... etc. Once again, these terms are putting all of this together. An individual's wealth, position, location, hierarchy, etc., are of no importance. This brings me to MY understanding of the parable of the 10 virgins. To me, this certainly does not mean the "buying and selling" process. It means at that time we will not have any time to acquire the Spirit needed to be saved - no second chances, and we can not obtain salvation with or through anyone - our choice of accepting Jesus as our Saviour has been made. Consequently, these terms in Revelation do not speak to a physical "buying and selling" as many contend, but regardless of our earthly position or situation, this "mark" speaks to our ability to be saved and not purchase goods or services. 3) Mark on hand or forehead (for me) does not mean a physical mark on either of the two places on man. I believe this is a spiritual marking. Going back to the identity of the "beast". It is my opinion this beast began as pagan Rome and as mentioned in Daniel there arose OUT OF THIS BEAST 10 horns AND THEN another "little horn". This little horn would gain power over the 10 and dispose of 3 of the 10. This same little horn in my opinion was the conversion of pagan Rome to papal Rome with the Papacy as the "little horn". This organization or power would definitely meet the prophecies in Daniel 11 - essentially he would not only take on God but claim to be God on earth. This power would corrupt the Word of God over the next 2,000 years. And one of their important beliefs is that it is NOT enough to be saved by faith alone but one must have WORKS. Therefore, for those who believe in "faith alone" they would have their "mark" on / in their foreheads (their spiritual beliefs). Should they follow the "beast" practices and beliefs which require faith AND works, they would be symbolically represented with a mark on their hands and forehead. Just some quick thoughts and look forward to anyone's response, Charlie

Once again my apologies! Right below is a cut/paste of Luigi's post requesting thoughts on the "dilemma" between the second year of Nebs. reign and the fact that Daniel has already been in captivity for 3 years. Why would God have Daniel include this is his book? He could have easily not mentioned this "timing dilemma" -so what is His purpose for drawing this to our attention? Thank you, Charlie Here now is the dilemma; How does Nebuchadnezzar in his second year of reign meet with Daniel whom he met after Daniel's three year internship, along with Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah?

What do YOU believe you should do in these situations or times you are near this individual?