Glory To God

We can make judgement but we have been given a Godly standard to live by. The standard you use will be used against you (Matthew 7:2)

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Sarcasm, seemed like the appropriate response at the time obviously I did not appreciate the post. And before you ask why I can't actually remember I just know something stood out that seemed to deminish the sovereignty of God. Not much more to say really. Carry on.

And while we are working all these miracles of faith and holiness within ourselves the creator of all things gets to stand back watch us make these decisions which may or may not include him. God just needs to wait and see what we do, then work his plan of salvation out based on the direction we lead him. Got it.

I reject your claim jesus loved the lost and I don't recall an instruction for his christian followers to specifically love the lost either or people of the world. In fact I remember Jesus praying for his disciples but Not for the lost.

I think a better formula is to love our brothers and sisters in Christ and have compasion for the lost.

I know you said you went to such churches and my reply is I think it is wrong to go to a corrupt church.

Hold on a second. When I say lost, I mean unsaved. Not a babe in Christ or diffenet in opinion to myself, I mean completely in the flesh and not born again. And the reason I say they will be unsaved in those places is because the way the "Church" lives is no different than the world. In fact, these apostate churches are now prioritising for the world/unsaved..... And you want to join them and call them brothers? Go ahead.

Well thanks for your opinion and I will add mine. Whole nations are under spitual darkness without the choice to assemble in a biblical sound church. Europe is a prime example of this. There are ten of thousands of protestant churches but nearly all have stripped out the holy things of god and are accepting sin. I would say it is much better to not go to churches of that position. If one lives in a country that has this as the standard...... Well we know what that means about assembling. What type of people do expect to find in a "church" that accepts homesexulity,casual drug and alcohol use,fornication,b*stard children or the family unit being unimportant,feminism etc? I tell you who the people are in the places, the lost. I want to meet Christians, you won't find them in these apostate churches.

I don't think you read my post properly. I never said that was doctrine,I said that was my opinion. So why you getting formal? And it doesn't even matter because different denominations take different view to soteriology. I agree doctrinely that a person needs to repent of their and be made right by the blood of Christ but here's the point-how do we know who those people are? Of course there is personal testimony but that is exactly the point of thread,is there evidence or a litmus to show who is a christian. I think there is and I stated it in the OP. This is the practicality of the faith not the technicality. Hope this helps and I repeat what I said at the beginning this is my opinion. As a matter of opinion,do you think a person professing to be a christian can not love god or not love Christians?

Since you imply a person is not sincere in their affection towards God and other believers, unless they go to church I want to ask you a question and these are the only two answer. Is it better to: 1)Go to a church where the church have abandoned the word of God and teach apostate Christianity. 2) Don't go to a corrupt church. Which one?

Quote from you ''In my 66 years of association with all things Biblical and Christian I have never met a non-Calvinist who believed they were the author of their salvation'' Of course you have Michael,they just don't use those words. In fact,every single Armenian thinking person who has ever professed to be a follower of Christ believe that even if it is temporary,and here is the reason: If it is not God alone that saves,free of any partnership with his creation than how are we saved? The answer is we save ourselves with the assistance of God. That is choosing your own destiny that is authoring your own salvation or lack of. That's the basic mechanics behind it,no other way really.

My heart open to Jesus? Not sure what you mean by. That's how evangelists speak about the lost. Doesn't sound good for me lol. See this is where I disagree,Jesus dying for everyone and you literally said everyone but what about those cast down into hell? Christ suffered so much,lived a sinless life had the glory of a miraculous unique birth and is now at the right hand of the father making intercessions,pleading to show us mercy.........for all those creatures in the pit of hell as well? Sorry I don't believe that. And I do think the great commission should be carried out indiscriminately,so there's no disagreement there.

Well by "free will" I assume you include the ability to choose salvation. Now it is going to very difficult to discuss this fairly with you David, because man's nature determines he capacity to choose God and if someone adds their own commentary into scripture, like this "they of their own free will dug themselves deep into a hole of extreme habitual trespasses" no counter-argument can be made because the scripture has been misrepresented. Man is dead in his sin says the Bible. So what are the chances of a dead man resuscitating himself and choosing God?

There are so many definitions and ideas that can be said and I would like to put a very firm criteria in place. In my opinion,if a person does not love God and does not love gods children,they are not a christian. This is the litmus test and I think all the scripture points to this. Jesus said this in the upper room at the last supper: John 15:9-12 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.'' Some points to be noted are Judas had been dismissed from the room before this point when this statement was made,only Christians were present. Jesus has a special kind of love for those he pulled out of the world and so we should follow his example,as instructed. If any person does not follow in words and actions these instructions from Christ I personal would not accept any profession to the faith,I would have to conclude the lack of love for God and his people expose the true nature of the individual. This is not a new Commandment,Gods people have always been commanded to love one another,it is old testament Lev 19:17-18 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord'' How many people are claiming to be a Christian and come short on these essential requirements? As the end time begin to close in,the light in you Christian will grow brighter and the darkness will become dimmer. Remember to love your Brothers and sisters and of course the holy God of all things. Praise the lord.

Well you are correct on the point about double predestination. God chooses who is saved and who is not. Several reasons for the objection,some being the sinner being able to accept or reject God is because it effectively degrades the sovereignty of God and falsely gives the spiritual dead man the impression he is the author of his own salvation when it is God alone who makes that call. When the sinful rebel thinks he is the one who decides he can write his name in gods book,this is not only false but it puts a low view on God and and high view of the corrupt creation. Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Thanks for sharing your belief David. Well it's fine you saying ''I believe that fallen mankind is capable of making free will choices to accept or reject the gospel message'' but the problem I would have in accepting that claim is the scripture makes such a strong case for mans inability to seek out the creator and be the author of his own salvation. When I look at verses like this I have no choice but to accept humanity is in a complete separated state from God and only reconciles by a saving grace: Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Well thanks for the serious question. I do want to make it clear that the reformers who put TULIP together are the authority on this biblical doctrine,so naturally I would defer to their seniority in any discrepancies that may have occurred,although I think my (amateur) five points are reasonable close to the real five points. Having said that let's focus in on the fourth point. I put my acronym together on the fly without notes but with sincerity,looking back I probably should have added more time and detail but what can you do. The Bible says man is dead not damaged in his trespasses and sins and obviously this a spiritual issue because we are psychically alive. However the human heart is in opposition with God and rebels against the creator as he always has done. Prophets,mediators and even God himself entering into creation via Christ has not turned humanity's view to god. So irresistible grace is lifeline from god that will save a person regardless of their rebellious heart. Two points to follow here,one is we have no ability to choose god because the spiritual death caused by the consequences of the fall and two is our flesh is in rebellion with god,seeking out our sinful desires. Also TULIP was designed in response to a group that believed gods grace can be resisted,a saved person can choose to reject god or that god will become fickle and allow the person to fall away into apostasy and man is not spiritual dead. The reformers objected adamantly to this claim and so do I also. My fourth point focused primarily on the fallen part of humanity and how we do not have the ability to choose god as there is no goodness in a corrupt lifeless husk. God has no spiritual fight with a dead man and there is no chance of losing the salvation that was never earned even partially by the undeserving lump. I did miss out the rebellious human heart that is at war with God to devise their own wicked devices that will eventually shown the glory of god. Man is natural in a state of enmity with god this is his default position. Now look here guys,I stated I was offering five points up,I never said they would be a decent five points did I?

Well I said my Glory post was a bit of fun but it was serious enough to unmask you hehe.

Just a bit of fun, i'm not a writer or theologian just thinking about the word like i usually do. So I made up my own five point acronym based off the TULIP and I call it glory. I will unpack it here side by side with the original five points. Godless state (Total depravity) Adams disobedience has thrown the human race into spiritually darkness and death,by being removed from our original environment and state of being,we no longer have the capacity to connect with God by our own agency (Rom 3:11). Memory of some sort should be present of the garden and our creator in the heart of humanity if we are beings truly inclined to spiritual good by nature. This complete lack of connection with the goodness of God implies the damage sustained by the fall was not just an injury but lethal and the utter ruin of the human will to have benevolence with God in our natural corrupted state. Lords selection (unconditional election) A title used for our higher power is Lord and he alone determines what is redeemable and what is cast away. The creator and owner of all things is bound by no contract or obligation (Psalm 115:3) to permit his corrupt rebellious creation into his kingdom after the day of judgement. No partnership or negotiations are offered to fallen man for the purpose of salvation to Gods kingdom other than his free divine grace and mercy. By free grace this is meant not as a cheap handout out to all who will come and take the sacred offer,rather the saving grace of god is free of any hindrance or conditions that conscribe the creators decision to righteously save who he choices and righteously damn who he choices. Organised salvation (limited atonement) From all eternity The triune god decided who the beloved son would suffer for and lay down his life for (Matthew 1:21) saving them from eternal separation when the books are opened and the names revealed. Reprobates and the miserable creatures in hell will not benefit one breath from the infallible work done by Jesus Christ and the precious holy blood that was shed on the cross for the selected group he chose to rescue. Saved solely by grace without merit or personal deservings. No other justification other than gods will to do so,for his will and pleasure. Resuscitation of the dead (irresistible grace) The irresistible grace of the TULIP has been deliberately subject to obscene language and accusations by mean spirited Armenians in modern day discussions. The spiritually dead man cannot resist gods saving Grace, because he is dead! This has been manipulated into a forceful unwanted act on Gods part against the believer and an undignified way of recovering fallen creation. Perverted terms like ''spiritually rape'' or love must be reciprocal are used by crude Armenian minded objectors of gods saving grace. Actually when observed closer a lifeless corpse can offer up no resistance,struggle or conflict against a loving merciful gift of spiritually birth. A complete ignorance of the goodness being granted on the part of the heavenly blinded means no fight is to be had only a free gift of redemption. (1 per 2:24) Yahwehs promise (Preservation of the saints) The name of the God in the bible is disputed but I'll take some liberty and go with Yayweh. Surely the god that holds the universe in the palm of his hand can deliver his ordained. The sovereign will of god overrides the perceived ability of man,many of which believe they are the ultimate authority of their destination. This cooperating god is an impotent passive character that is not found within the pages of scripture. The true god of the bible works all things for his glory and everything else is secondary. If God so chooses to deliver a person for salvation,he will not fail (John 10:29) and there is no offer to accept or reject,because god chooses you. So my five points are glory. Glory to our wonderful God.Praise the lord.

You say ''Still God loves us and gave His own son for us. We only have to believe and turn from our wicked ways'' and so much could be debated about this. Well it's going to be difficult,nah,impossible to choose God if we are corrupt and have no understanding of how to be friends with him. Only a saving act of grace can redeem the lost and spirtually dead. Romans 3:11 ''There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.'' Romans 8:7 ''Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.'' Only a saving act of grace can redeem the lost and spiritually dead.

Well these people who you condemn all used scripture to support their belief which is more than what you have done here Justin. Anyway,the topic is the nature of man let's no stray away from that.

And happy to be so ?. The copy paste job you did is full of errors. The Bible says by nature we are children of wrath, we do not need anyone else's sin imputed to us. Complete miss on total depravity.

We don't, inherit Adams guilt and I haven't claimed anyone does. Adam separated the human race from God and now we need to be reconciled to the creator. If you agree humanity has a sinful nature,then the question really should be an easy one to answer-humanity by nature is bad and corrupt. The reason we seem to be arguing passed each other is I don't think you know what total depravity of man is and also,there is no case from the scripture to prove that humanity is good by nature. Hope that is more helpful.

Justin, you say that but no-one in opposition to original sin,including you, has used a scripture based argument. So saying the view you are arguing for is "plain enough" without displaying any type of coherent Biblical text to support that view is invalid or not Christian. Observe my OP and how it puts together a very basic argument, from scripture, that we have a sin nature as a consequence of the fall from the Grace of God resulting from Adams sin. Could you do the Same to validate your belief?