endure4salvation

I think it is safe to say that neither extreme position is correct in God's eyes. Neither Calvinism or Armenism (or my spelling) are accurate. It has to be somewhere in between, because it seems that both sides ignore or twist Scriptures to continue believing in what they want. I believe in the soverignity of God and I also believe in the responsibility and free will of mankind in the salvatic process. This is an endurance race--not a done deal.

I get in trouble when I talk about the 'security in sin' false doctrine of eternal security and how it is the 'license to sin' that Judas was talking about, so I won't go there.... But I will ask what in the world was he talking about when he talked about the devil, Moses, and Michael? I don't think that this is in Scripture anywhere, so I don't know what to think about it.

If everything is predetermined, then why would God make us go through this horrible 'trial and error period'? Why not just make us perfect in heaven and avoid this mess? Predetermalism is uncompatible with a God of love, therefore, it is a false and dangerous doctrine. Predestination is about a plan of salvation because God knew that we would mess up--he had to provide a way before he allowed Adam the choice to either accept or reject him. A plan--not a person.

Yes, nothing can seperate us from the LOVE of God--but you overlook the fact that there are 2 seperate covenants. The first doesn't work anymore because the Jews became unfruitful and disobedient and were therefore CUT OFF FROM SALVATION!!! Try reading just 3 chapters later and see if there is anything that can seperate us from the SALVATION of God: Again, if we go into unbelief, we will be CUT OFF FROM GOD!!!! I have posted many many passages from Scripture that openly refute the OSAS position, but few are as obvious as this next one: Please note the following quotes from this passage: 1. If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark... 2. He will be tormented with burning sulfur... 3. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. So if a SAINT (Christian sealed with the Holy Spirit after the infinite sacrifice of Jesus and with God knowing everything about grace and nothing being able to seperate us from the LOVE of God) receives this Mark of the Beast he will go to hell. How much more clear does it need to be? Let he who has ears...............................

Jesus is Judas' judge and look at what He said about Judas: We are not judging Judas Iscariot because we read in Scripture that he is: doomed to destruction and it would have been better for him to have not been born. This doens't sound like a guy on his way to heaven, does it? :wow:

You may or may not be aware of this, but the Greek word translated 'believe in John 3:15 and John 3:16 is in the present active participle, which proves a continous tense belief is required. Here is Young's Literal: As you can clearly see, a literal translation renders John 3:16 as a continual tense--if one abandons the faith they no longer have a present tense belief and are no longer under the promise of those that shall not perish.

This is a true statement, because unbelief is a sin and if all sin was 'paid for' then even the unbelievers would be in heaven--people like Hitler, Darwin, Hussein, and all others who have done horrindous things (like not being able to spell for one!! ) Edit to include the following link: http://www16.brinkster.com/eternaldebate/payment.htm

Our inheritance is guarenteed, not our salvation!!!! Look at Matthew 25 to see that inheritance is revoakable and we can still be cast into hell: Here we clearly see that a servant of God (a Christian sealed with the Holy Spirit) ended up losing his inheritance and was cast into hell. I believe in the keeping power of God--and the keeping power of the individual as well: Also note that it is the salvation that is incorruptable, not our possesion of it. I believe in the positive promises of God--why don't you believe in the negative promises of God? Are you deceived to the point where you think that the wicked will inherit the kingdom of God? These verses are written to the believers who are following God! These verses aren't written to those who are being deceived by false doctrines--Paul addressed them in another letter: These clear verses say the following had happened to those at this church:

He wasn't born again. To be born again, one must accept Christ as Saviour and Lord. That could not happen until after He died and His blood was shed for our sins. Judas Iscariot was under the old dispensation of Law. So you are suggesting that no OT person (David, Noah, John the Baptist, etc...) was ever saved and all will go to hell? How far do you want to carry this? I posted clear verses that said Judas Iscariot was a close friend of God and had his name in the Book of Life and he ended up in hell. How much more clear does it need to be? Let he who has ears......

1 Corinthians 12:28 tells us that being an apostle is the highest position that a person can hold in the Church. Luke 6:12-16 tells us that Jesus Himself called all 12 apostles--including Judas Iscariot. In Matthew 10:6-8 it tells us that the apostles, including Judas Iscariot, had authority to preach, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, and drive out demons. In Mark 3:23-27, Jesus tells us that a demon cannot cast out a demon, so Judas Iscariot could not have had a demon when Jesus sent them out to do these works. Jesus is telling us that all 12 of His disciples are his brothers. This would include Judas Iscariot because no reference was made that indicates that he was any exception. In John 13:18, Jesus quotes an Old Testament verse concerning Judas Iscariot. This is a quote from Psalm 41. Here is Psalm 41:9 in its entirety: Jesus Christ Himself is calling Judas Iscariot a friend and says he is one whom He trust's and that he shared in his ministry. What does being a friend of God mean? To be called a friend of God is to be righteous. In other words, it means to have salvation. Judas was at one point called a close friend of God and thereby was one that had salvation. To be friends with Jesus is to be an enemy of the world. So we have established the fact that Judas Iscariot had salvation at the beginning of his venture with Jesus Christ. If you go back and start reading at Luke 10, you will see that this verse was spoken by Jesus as soon as the seventy-two disciples returned from their preaching, healing, and demon driving mission. This obviously includes Judas Iscariot and no where does it make an exception for him. According to Jesus, Judas Iscariot drove out demons and had his name written in heaven in the book of life. Please remember that Jesus would never grant supernatural powers to a lost person (or instrument of Satan) to do works in His name. By now here are the points about Judas Iscariot that we have found in Scripture:

How do you explain what happened to Judas Iscariot? He was an apostle, hand picked by God and yet he ended up in hell....

Please don't think that I am trying to call into question anybody's salvation or dedication to God. All I am saying is that we are in a race and it is possible to become disqualified (1 Cor. 9:27). Paul used the Greek word adokimos here and said that he could become as such. Here are the other places where this same word is used: Here the word 'adokimos' is translated reprobate. This is talking about homosexuals and we know that they are not going to heaven. Here again, the word 'adokimos' is translated reprobate and is not talking about someone on their way to heaven. It uses the terms defiled, nothing pure, abominable, and reprobate. Again, the word 'adokimos' that Paul used here is referring to someone who has a corrupt mind and is reprobate. These people are not on their way to heaven. This doesn't sound like the people described here are on their way to heaven and are competing for rewards upon arrival, does it? Here, the word 'adokimos' is used 3 times, each talking about reprobates. So every time that this word is used it is talking about those that have absolutely no chance of salvation in their current state of unrepentant sin. Out of all the times that the word 'adokimos' is used in Scripture, absolutely zero times is it referring to someone that is going to heaven. So when we take 1 Corinthians 9:16-27 in context, the whole text is talking about salvation, not extra rewards in heaven or even service for God while here on earth. Paul stressed that he preached to win some. He did it so that they might be saved! He became all things to all men so that he might win some. And then Paul clearly says that he is persevering in the faith so that he isn't disqualified from eternal salvation. He is not talking about winning some extra rewards for those in heaven, is he? No, he is not. And he isn't talking about winning a place of service for others while here on earth, is he? No, he is not. Also, note that Paul is saying that if he gives up, he will become as those that are not going to heaven! Homosexuals, reprobates, and the lost who have no hope of heaven because of unrepentant sin. It amazes me that Christians can read the Bible and come up with the idea that sin doesn't cause separation from God. To say that is to blatantly ignore the true meaning of the Gospel and to completely deny the entire reason the Bible was written. Paul said that he could become lost if he doesn't continue on with God's plan with perseverance. Please know that Paul had a present tense assurance of salvation, but not because of a past moment of faith or his conversition experience.

Teh...if you have ever gotten angry at someone, doesn't that qualify you as a murderer in your heart? We all are guilty of stealing, lying, cheating, and murder. We all have desired things that are not ours and so on and so forth. Here is a quote from you: You have the right to live your life any way you want. God has given you the will to choose what you want. But if you always live for yourself and what you want, after you die you get to be by yourself. And you will have seen what you missed out on (spending eternity with Jesus) and you will not be happy with your decision then. You will deeply regret it. I choose to live for Jesus and serve others, because that is the best way to live life.

Hi Catsmeow! It is good to see you post here! I love cats and am about to get one when my soon-to-be-bride and I get back from our honeymoon. We are getting married in only 7 days!!! But let us not stray too far off-topic here. Here is a quote from you: I must say I am disturbed by your comment here. I would like to request that you give further elaboration on what you are trying to say. It almost seems to me like you are admitting that our salvation is conditional upon our forsaking of our sins and continual adherance to God's commands, but you don't care if you do these things. That isn't what you are saying, is it? Yes, this is sad but true. I myself am bitter at times and even downright ugly to people. But we have to change and become humble and obedient like a little child in order to please God. I am trying... Here are a few more verses to ponder over:

DOES SIN BRING ABOUT SPIRITUAL DEATH ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? All of the UES proponents will openly declare that these verses are talking about a physical death. They will say that God will destroy the body and bring them to heaven for a glorious homecoming! In fact, the worse they behave, the sooner God will bring them home! See how this actually encourages sinful living in some people? There are some people that will think that because they are struggling with life (depression or abuse from family just to give two examples), that they would benefit by sinning as much as possible because it will cause God to kill them and bring them home! Or even worse, it may actually cause them to murder themselves! I understand that this is not true for the majority, but I have personally experienced deep depression and can say with complete certainty that the mindset of anybody in this state is unstable, at best. Suicide is only a bad day away for anyone in this condition. Desperate times call for desperate measures to someone who has no will or hope. Pay close attention here: some people will say that all the above verses do not mean spiritual death, and then these same people will then quote Romans 6:23 where it says, The wages of sin is death to a lost person and say that this is talking about spiritual death! How hypocritical!!! I sure wish these people would make up their minds! They always pick and choose which passages deal with physical and spiritual death according to how it can fit their preconceived theology, and they have to do this in order to continue believing in UES. That being said, look at the following passages: Some may say that this verse doesn't apply anymore because it is in the Old Testament. This claim is absurd because God cannot change, but let us look into the New Testament to see if there is a similar verse. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT SIN DOES LEAD TO SPIRITUAL DEATH!!!! DO NOT BE DECEIVED!!! This verse cannot be talking about a physical death! Because if it was talking about physical death instead of spiritual death, then the end result of this passage would say that if you stop sinning, your physical body will live forever! This is not the case, so it is obvious that a Christian can turn from God to a sinful lifestyle and will die spiritually.

Hi coolwaters! You made some good points here. Basically, I feel like heaven is for those who want to be with God and prove it by living a holy life. I feel like being under grace means that we strive to live by certain parts of the law. Not in the animal sacrifices and such, but along the lines of the heart condition we have. It is revealed through works and through our attitude and the way we carry ourselves (live our lives). I just try to be obedient and love other people. It sure helps me feel good to help others--that is the way we all should be living.

HELLO!!!! Thanks for your post here. I wish I could respond to your post, but you offered no Scripture for us to discuss. We can use human arguments all day long but these will do nothing but confuse and fustrate us all. If you want to discuss being 'unborn again' I would say you are trying to use the once a son-always a son arugument and then I will have to turn around and ask you a question: If you were a child of the devil before your initial salvation experience, then how did you get a new spiritual Father? It follows that we can have a new spiritual father again--this would be the devil. As for 'am I born again' I would say YES! I have dedicated my life to be a humble servant of the Lord Jesus. Remember, you will know a real Christian by his fruit! I hope that people see my life and say that I resemble a real Christian. But only me and God know the real truth. We can use a righteous judgment to determine if someone is living right or not. I am trying my best. We are told to make every effort to enter into the kingdom of God.

Oh, absolutely! We do have security in Jesus!!! Jesus keeps us and loves us and seals us with the Holy Spirit and works in us all the way to the end. But we still have the free will to reject Jesus and walk away from salvation, even after our initial salvation experience. Judas Iscariot did just this. It is sad. Be blessed and keep on living for Jesus!

BTW, you can all call me Jake! Please don't misunderstand me. I am NOT saying that everyone who believes in UES uses it for a license to sin. Some of the most humble and dedicated Christians I have ever met believe in UES. All I am saying is that we NEED to endure and obey God as part of our salvation. This is NOT a works salvation, but a saving faith that desires to please God.

This thread is meant with a spirit of Christian love :il: Please accept it as such, as I love you all. I have often spoke with people who believe that the doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security is the correct Biblical doctrine concerning salvation. I have told them that this teaching is exactly what Jude was talking about in his epistle. Here is Jude 3, 4: Clearly, Jude was saying to reject the teaching that allows for a license to sin and still remain saved. What do the UES teachers openly declare from the pulpits today? Please note that all the following quotes are from people who believe UES is the correct Biblical doctrine.

Bride=Church (Christians) Groom=Jesus (Christ) Only Jesus can allow or disallow someone entrance into heaven. But I must apologize for my off-topic posts. All I was trying to get at was we need to be ready when Jesus does come back because we don't know the hour or day. And I was using Matthew 25 to show that we need to be ready. So--are you ready? No problem! Take your time!

Sorry about the double post--I don't know what happened!

I must apologize, for I do not understand what you are saying. The parable is about 10 virgins (these are the bride of Christ) and the bridegroom is Jesus Christ. What do you mean by 'these bridegrooms might not be Christians?'

Hebrews 11:3 NASB By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the Word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Hi! Well, look at Matthew 25:1 where it says there were 10 virgins. A virgin is someone who belongs to the groom (a Christian) and is awaiting the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. But five of them were lazy and let their spiritual lamps run out of oil (see v. 2). When the groom came back, these same five were told by Jesus, "I don't know you." This is different from what was told to the false prophets when Jesus will say, "I NEVER knew you." There is the 50% and there is NO possible way to tell how many total Christians there are today or tomorrow. All we can do is tell others about the forgivness of sins we have by our faith in Jesus Christ. Thank you, Jesus!!!