Kelly2363

Believing in the resurrection of any man would be a supernatural happenstance if it were to come randomly and disconnected with Christ Himself. If someone came to me and did not confess faith in Christ' death - I would more than likely assume that they had not believed in His resurrection either. So if they did tell me that Christ was raised from the dead I would give them a place in the oak seat at the back of the church and wait to see what they did in fact believe. And so if after a while they came and asked why they were in the oak seat alone I would tell them that this was because they are the only person I know who believed n the resurrection of Christ from the dead - but did not believe in His death.

What have I to do with you?

How great thy works O Lord made full, Though men with spirits born again and heeding not, Find sudden unexpected loss, laid low with grief. So much a perfect work restrains this carnal flesh, Imprisons all, though inward shines. If not the garment torn by willing cross to bear, If all its purpose pressed conceive no blessing. The end to dust return, our wait as sons of God. In Christ, a child by faith cries, ‘Abba Father’ Awake! And fruitful make the time, a wait no more. This barren form conceived by purpose known. The summer heat, its flower scorched and lost. Treasure now present, cry out, cry hope! Let all the parts to cleave, if parts to form. Once again corruption set aside, eternal vessel. A faithful wait! The kingdom of our Lord.

Yes indeed. I came to the same position in large part because I was concerned by the way I was being treated by a pastor and not because of my lack of zeal. Nee gave me the best exposition of what our faith into Christ is - and rather than make me less inclined to serve the Lord it made me more grateful for what I had in Christ. That was the day I found the rest of the Lord.

Watchman Nee once ventured to offer his understanding of who is a Christian and who is not. The reason was simply because in a Christian culture many people say they believe and even do many things to uphold that claim - but then sometime they fall away and for decades in some cases. So he coined the phrase - Saved with an Everlasting Salvation to express what is intended by Once Saved Always Saved. He defined Salvation in more detail than any person I have ever read bar none - and then expressed that he judges who is saved by what it is they are able to believe. If you think about it - that really does separate out who is saved or not saved - fully saved or still being saved. The Lord knows.

I don't know if this will help myself or help others - but the one thing I have been concerned with for my entire walk is the sheep and not concerned with the reprobate. And that is a most difficult thing to even say - because reprobation is a dreadful doctrine that causes many to stumble even amongst those who are elect of God. It has been my time on a few forums that attract many brethren from churches in the USA that has given me a way to form a semblance of understanding of something I have witnessed in historical research of some of the most harmful and often truly wicked men and occasionally a few women also - that has it that they came out of the churches. In short these very harmful men and a few women grew up in strict brethren and strict Calvinist families and when they were children they were able to make a childish response to the notion of Christ as a good shepherd - but then at some point in their lives - usually in their late teens - they took an unimaginable turn and became so wicked that they were roundly condemned by every right minded person and eventually died in that same condition. So I am not speaking about that extremity of effects because it cannot be that such a person was ever truly saved or held to a living faith in their teenage years - if they then proved by a lifetime of hedonism and gross sin - to be reprobate. In short it seems likely that they were simply upheld as children in the cultural and parental effect of their lives - until they were responsible for their own choices. Then when that moment came they chose the flesh and the world and the devil because they did not have the power to choose Christ. What I am alluding to, and why I say for my own benefit or others benefit - is that same sense - but rather more in a way of a very definite paradox. Because when I have in the past corresponded with believers in the USA they more than any others have brought the paradox to the fore. But it is in simple parlance a sense of reading what is written and at times being frustrated with it - and at the same time believing that in some unfathomable way the USA is both childish and needs Christ and knows that it needs Christ - yet finds it almost impossible to remove from a love of the world if by world I mean self interest and prosperity of possessions. That is a little simplistic I realise and I can say that the same sense also occurs when I am ministering to brethren in the UK as well - yet in a much lesser degree of being pressed into trying to understand and answer that paradox. I simply cannot just write brethren off as false - simply to explain this paradox. I don't believe that is in the will of God and I can't see how it will bring glory to Christ. Though there must be a need to sense the time we live in and to see that the public square in the United States - and family life - is becoming increasingly humanistic and hostile to that childish need to need Christ and to hold Him up in the public space. I literally tremble with a sense of grief what will happen when that effect is gone too far. In that meaning there will be no need to cite doctrine - because the consequence will cause all those who gave their hearts to Christ as children to cry out and then Christ will answer. That will make the separation clear enough. Why would we want to press into that effect when we can walk in the Spirit and live a victorious life now - even if we are persecuted - than to be thrown into a fire of testing that will leave us with only that which remains because our works are burned up and we are left - saved as through fire.

That is perhaps one of the most astonishing things about the Lord - is when we find release and the courage to bear witness of the vile flesh by bearing witness of our way back into grace. Too often we find it impossible to tell others and so we think that we cannot tell the Lord also - even though we know that He knows. Yet one day He grants the release and we run back with hearts of gladness and then sense that we ought to tell our brethren who may be also struggling with the same vile flesh we have struggled with. How good is the Lord?

I mean what ought to be apparent in context of this OP. Denominational doctrines may be true but they are often applied in such a way that they cause schisms and in some instances they become heretical - being the over emphasis of a truth at the expense of another truth. Whereas The author of this OP fell away from walking in Christ for a period of years - as he testified to himself in this forum in the last week. If, for example, he had come to a pastor and tried to explain his direction in faith and was told that a dog returns to the vomit and a pig to the mire how would that have helped - especially when the one who falls away is stumbling in some measure because of a legalistic application of Scripture. For the purposes of clarification David spoke of a diamond and when asked if that meaning was a qualifier he replied yes. When I asked about the outer darkness I was not given an answer other than to say that the darkness is the place for unbelievers. I was given the Scripture citing the dog to the vomit and the pig to the mire. In context of having spoken about what condition I have found some of the sheep whilst preaching on the streets - that is dead doctrine. A diamond doesn't come out of the ground polished and refined. Neither do believers come into life polished and refined. Try cutting a glass with an uncut and unpolished diamond. The best you will achieve is to scratch the glass. And this is equal to bearing witness of Christ when you are first saved. All these stones scratch glass: lbite, Beryllonite, Boracite, Corundum, Danburite, Elbaite, Euclase, Grossular, Marialite. Oligoclase, Orthoclase, Petalite, Phenakite, Pollucite, Quartz, Sanidine, Sillimanite, Spodumene, Topaz, Zircon, Zoisite - so even that test can be proven false if we intend to apply it legalistically and doctrinally to mean cutting glass with a refined diamond is the proof of a saint - where the saint is a diamond. I quoted 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and that speaks of gold, silver and precious stones as being refined by fire and producing a reward. So in that meaning just as the stones in the above list all scratch glass so we ought to recognise that a saint is not one who is zealous to every effect of upholding doctrines in their walk that can be used to harm - but rather according to their measure of faith. And that will have it that the church is filled with many assorted precious stones in their outworking of good works. So to answer my own words as David did is unlikely to produce any semblance of agreement from me when I know that many brethren are in a terrible condition because dead legalistic doctrine was applied to them when the cause of their stumbling was a loveless church.

Ok David. Have it the way of being hurt if you must do that. But all I said to you brother was that doctrine no matter how exemplary it may be does not do a shred for the real condition of the churches in many places and when it is applied as a measure to address sin in the lives of believers and especially those who have fallen away (sometimes for very long seasons) doctrine will do little to bring them back when it did nothing to preserve them in the first place. I made my responses to your comments on my own words. That is the measure brother and nothing more. And just to say it plainly - I am not wounded and if you are then forgive me.

Well yes you are very careful with your words. But I am inclined to be much more careful with the elect of God. Every believer I have known that has fallen from their faithful walk has fallen because of the harm they received in the churches. It never came from the world. And almost their entire pain was their falling away and their inner contradiction - whilst their sin was their flesh and the means to destroy themselves because they could not fathom the love of God when those in their sight could not love them. So whilst you are careful with your doctrines that are in truth disconnected meanings - I am careful with the sheep. The only brethren I have no mercy for is those who cause stumbling. There are by now more sheep that have fallen away than are presently in the fold. You are either disconnected from the real world or else you much favour theologies that are dead when you cannot see the reality of the churches and the effects that have been measured by pastors and elders who have little regard for the real needs of the brethren and rather favour their pocket books. But we are done David. If for no more reason than what we have said already.

That is utterly condemnatory - it lacks compassion and is of course worthless to addressing anything that is likely to bring any sheep back into the fold that has wandered away. But I would invite you to prove your first claim from the Scripture. Not a worthless peddling of disconnected meanings but a connected meaning that has more to say than that the dog returns to the vomit and the sow to the mire. I have met some of these sheep that have wandered away when I have been preaching in city centres and so I know what the difference is between a dog to the vomit and a sheep that has wandered away. Perhaps more pertinently I have their witness as to why they fell. It's never a good account and neither does it bear a good witness for those legalistic men who caused them to stumble by their lack of compassion and their weighty claims. Just saying David. And I am a Calvinist.

Yes they are - but then tell me brother where is outer darkness - and what is its measure? Moreover, the Lord is not evil that He should forget our good works. So how will YOU measure any mans good works if all you see is dead doctrine and cannot fathom why men walk away when they once confessed Christ and bore witness of Him?

At the risk of seeming critical the opening comment is not the same in meaning as the one that was posted and speaks of a marriage between a man and a woman. That latter one ends in the marriage feast of the Lamb and the former has to do with walking away from the Lord. They both share one sense of meaning - walking away. So what is it that we need to be dressed in readiness for the Lord. A white garment. And where will we get that from? From the righteous works of the saints. Therein is the Corinthian verse. It may very well be possible to refuse to dress in readiness and not to be included in the marriage feast of the Lamb - but it is impossible to separate yourself from Christ - regardless as to the outward appearance.

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? And he answered and said unto them, Unto you, it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them, it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.” Mathew 13:10-17 We know that the meaning of the parable of the sower is how the hearer received the Gospel of the kingdom, as well as the outcome (Mark 4:3-8). So when Jesus says to the disciples that “to him who has, much more will be given, and from him that has not, even that which he has will be taken away,” He is talking about a heart that hears and receives the gospel of the kingdom. It has to be recognised that the Gospel of the Resurrection was not yet revealed, and would not be comprehended until after the resurrection itself. More fully the gospel of the grace of God through Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, was not yet fully comprehended until Paul (2 Timothy 2:8). It was to Paul that the Gospel of grace was delivered, out of season, both for the Jew first and then to the Gentile also. Israel received through Christ Himself, both forgiveness of sins, where it was sought, as well as all the benefits of having Messiah present with them. This included raising the dead, casting out unclean spirits, healing the sick and forgiveness of sin. Yet this was the Gospel of the kingdom and was not yet the Gospel of Grace as preached by the apostle Paul. It was that which came through The Law and the Prophets, even Christ. It has to be said that the gospel of the kingdom does speak of the grace of God through Christ Jesus, because Christ was crucified from before the foundation of the world as far as the eternal knowledge of God is concerned. Yet the gospel of the kingdom was first preached while Christ was yet in the flesh. It is only after the Lord’s death and resurrection that Christ became a life-giving spirit. We see this in the Scripture which speaks, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45). It is only after the Lord’s death and resurrection that there would be a new covenant written in Christ’s own blood, and this would herald the Gospel of Grace. This parable of the sower has been presented as pertaining to the Gospel of Grace, yet this contradicts the very words of the Lord Himself and the reason why He began to speak in parables at this time. The gospel of the kingdom which John the baptist proclaimed, could not fully become the gospel of grace until Christ Himself had fulfilled all the righteous demands of the Law. In strict adherence to the circumstance in which the Lord began to speak in parables, it is necessary to understand both the parable as well as the explanation in its context first. If we cannot comprehend this, we may never truly understand the Scriptures. Moreover, we will never understand the coming kingdom. “But when he [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” Matthew 3:7 One could scarcely imagine using these words in an evangelical crusade today. Under the New Covenant, there is no possibility that Jesus will remove from anyone the opportunity or power to believe in Him if they turn to Him with a repentant heart. Even though a veil still remains over Israel, many of Israel believed in Christ after the resurrection, beginning on the day of Pentecost. After the resurrection of Christ from the dead, the Gospel of Grace would never be hidden from anyone fully and would be preached unto the ends of the earth. Whereas in Israel, the Gospel of the kingdom was hidden fully at a certain point in time in fulfillment of a prophecy of Isaiah. Matthew 13:10-17 is the explanation why Jesus began to speak in parables to the people of Israel. The explanation is from verse twelve, and then from verse thirteen to verse seventeen. “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them, it is not given.” This same reality is revealed in another place with the Lord’s words, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” (John 15:16). There is another Scripture which cannot be of any less importance to this understanding, and corresponds to the moment Jesus rode into Jerusalem from the mount of Olives on an asses colt, saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.” (Luke 19:42) These words were expressly spoken in response to a few Pharisees who said to the Lord, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” To make the point emphatic, Jesus said, “if you had known this day, even you [Israel] the things which make for peace, But now they have been hidden from your eyes.” The Pharisees had already been cut off, and Israel could only comprehend as it was given to individuals, by reason of the Father. Now the Lord is saying to Israel directly, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.” (Luke 19:42) In Mark 3:22 we read of the moment when the Pharisees, now on the Mount of Olives, blasphemed the Holy Spirit, by saying, “He hath Beelzebub, and, By the prince of the demons casteth he out the demons.” It is directly after this blasphemy that Jesus stopped speaking plainly and began to speak in parables. The first of which parables’ was the parable of the sower, according to Mark 4:3-8. This parable is delivered to a multitude who are gathered by the sea of Galilee and is therefore in an open place where anyone could have come to listen freely. This included those few Pharisees, now cut off from life. In this context, Jesus says, when asked about why he had begun to speak in parables, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.” (v11-14) Returning in this sense is both personal to the Pharisees, who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, as well, as can be seen in many other instances of the leading Jews, and even the people more generally. As previously stated, this saying, “that they may see and not perceive, and while hearing they may not hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven” is a prophecy of Isaiah. “He said, “Go, and tell this people: Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’ “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise, they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.” Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered, “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, “The Lord has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.” Isaiah 6:9-12 Also, we see that the words spoken in Luke chapter nineteen conclude with this same prophecy, including the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora of Israel in 70AD. It is evident therefore that the whole of the prophecy, which is given in part by Christ to the disciples in private, is delivered to Israel in full, in public, and concerns both the Pharisees as well as Israel itself. From the point when the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit, Jesus spoke only in parables in public. And the condition necessary to an ability to understand the Lord, from this point onwards, became “let him who has an ear, hear, or eyes to see.” Now on the mount of Olives, as Jesus rides into Jerusalem, He hides from all. Even the disciples are told that they must not reveal that Jesus is the Christ once they enter Jerusalem. In John Chapter ten, although Jesus speech is not said to be a parable, nevertheless it is hidden from the jews who were gathered to listen to Him. In verse six it is written that Jesus spoke in a figure of speech and in verse twenty-four the Jews asked the Lord to talk to them plainly. The Lord’s speech gave rise to a schism; some saying that Jesus had a demon and others bearing witness of the Lords works. Here in this verse alone is the proof of the outworking of what it means to have eyes to see or ears to hear. Jesus is asked while standing in Solomon’s Portico to come right out with it and to say whether He was the Christ or not. To which Jesus says, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “the Father and I are one.” (John 10:25-30) The meaning of Isaiah’s prophecy is that it had to do with both the Pharisees blasphemy as well as the blasphemy of other Jews of no rank, and in generality, it had to do with Israel. It is visible in everything the Lord spoke after the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled to its fullness in the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel in 70AD. Extract

Saved yet as through fire.

In the darkness there was a light. Sudden moment of despair, comprehending all. Father! Father! I cried, and in an instant saved. Great Mercy laid hold of me, and bore me up. At once was I giddy, rising high upon His train. I laughed, and shouted His name to the heavens. He did with all joy carry me to His fold. My feet He set upon the Rock, and understanding gave. I saw Him. He bore the wounds to tell of it. I wept of Him. Forgive me Lord? I asked. Forgiveness all He spake

So to this - because herein lies your other comment on another thread telling that you were going to ask me if I had received the Holy Spirit. And you have told me that you were taken by your mother to a Baptist Church as a child - that you then received the Holy Spirit according to Luke 11:13 and have been to Assemblies of God, Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. Then you ask "what about you?" I don't look for the label on the door to find believers and to serve the Lord. And I look where the Lord takes me and not as a child looks for sweets in a sweet shop only to be pursaided by an impatient shop keeper to buy ruined sweets when I need honey. So when I go into the charismatic churches I only listen to so much babble and then I pray myself. After that I know who is in the Spirit and who is yet in the flesh because it can be measured by the sudden sober reality of acquiring the honey out of a nest of hornets. Shalom brother.

Thats very doubtful if I am to speak of myself as you have asked me to. It's all about what God thinks is false. And that can be measured in the parade that has it that a man walks ahead declaring the glory of God with a rapist and a liar and a thief and a child pressed into sexual harm and a woman drunk with false prophecy as his captains. It must also be self evident that were it possible to arrive at that by simply reading the Scripture - then we would all be better to take a vow of silence and start reading the Scripture. True or false is not whether someone is a believer or not. Anymore - than true or false is a matter of whether a prophet of God is become a fake because he speaks falsely. True or false are measured in the effect of the scroll we eat. Not in a theoretical scale that simply winks at harm and pretends to be innocent by speaking innocently when in truth the actor is guilty of upholding a Babylonian whore who's countenance is such that it had the Apostle John wonder with a great wonder at the sight of her parading as God.

This element of my original post needs explanation because whilst it may seem as though this is in the narrative diction - what it represents is an actual reality in a church and its effect. My personal experience for the entirety of my walk has been that the Lord draws to my attention a spiritual effect in a church and He does that by discernment - but always by sight of a member who is being harmed by a spiritual effect. This description of a sister being in eldership, being the lead pastor, being worship leader, and also being one who directs the vision of the church is not made up. One time I was driving through a town in the north of England, and I saw a group of young lads standing in the quadrant of a large impressive Baptist Church straight ahead of me. As I approached I was immediately quickened in my spirit and one of these lads turned and looked straight at me with no reason to even know I was there because I was screened by the car. It was as though he was asking for help. His expression consisted of a sense of not knowing who he was in Christ. It was as if he could see me and was searching and yet he could not see me at all. He was the only lad who turned and he was more than likely the oldest in this group of eleven or so lads - he was likely just 15 years old. Some hours later when I got back to the mission station I asked a friend who I worked with if he knew who the church was and what he made of my discernment. This brother told me that the church wasn't a Baptist Church anymore but was a Pentecostal church and that the church had three elders - with two of them being pastors. In fact this young co-worker I spoke with had fellowshipped there for several months whilst he was waiting for our own building to be renovated. He also explained that the church pastorate had changed since he left. He also described his concerns, which were pastoral, in terms that made perfect sense to me given what I had been led of the Spirit to see in that young man in the church quadrant. So I researched the church and looked back at their history over a ten year period - I listened to ministry tapes and looked into the governing body in considerable detail. I also went through their current website and traced the historical sites and tried to give some meaning to what I knew was true in that lad - but could not explain in any material way beyond his visible witness and the testimony of my co-worker. What I discovered was precisely what I have said in the now red quote above. I eventually drilled down into their website on line and to a post that gave that precise detail as the detail of the lead pastor who was the wife of the co-lead pastor. The church was exemplary in its safeguarding as defined by the 2014 Care Act and exemplary in its application of the 2010 Equality Act Section 149 (PSED) precept. It had in place Data Subject Access Request (DSAR) information and numerous other pieces of legislation to protect members and uphold the Laws of England & Wales. In fact their litigant knowledge was impressive. That caught my attention as did the direction of the preaching and the way in which the women of the church were being prepared for a work that was described as a prophetic requirement to take the whole area for Christ - a requirement specifically put as a command and expressed as a charge of God on the women who were told that this had been the will of the Lord from the beginning. You would think that almost none of this could be in itself a concern seeing as this was not my church and I had no authority to speak into the situation or even speak to the lad. Yet I have never been able to forget him - And I still feel a burden for him because I knew even those years ago that he did not know how to express his desire to serve the Lord due to the nonsense that the young men and older men were encouraged to practise as a means of supposed spiritual growth amounting to little more than natural and practical things. And where the women attend conferences dedicated to empowering them by upholding politically correct sentiments and laws to the letter of the law even beyond what the law actually required - And all to cover a spiritual ambition to empower women to take the land and finally come into their anointing - being crowned of God. And all this is set into a precept of evangelising the lost. This incident and the research that I put into trying to understand why the Spirit had burdened me with that lad in the quadrant of the former Baptist Church building first opened my eyes to something that I had seen in a spiritual reality of a misuse of the gift of prophecy many times and even to the extent that several wives of pastors had exercised a Jezebelic spirit of abuse in my own hearing and sight that had me asking the Lord who the person was, who was being harmed. The Lord showed me and I spoke with him afterwards. He confirmed the effect on him that I discerned coming out of two pastors’ wives. But what I realised about this church in the North of England was that there was a characteristically different effect by brethren in the gifts of the Holy Spirit where the gift of prophecy wasn't a misused part - rather the Law of the land was shaping and reinforcing what the men were already experiencing in the school and the college and the work place - yet pressed into a dead but clearly prophetic claim to an army of women taking an entire region of the UK by right of passage because they were crowned for that glory. The young men were by that means being defrauded because they were essentially set aside. So what then is the deep issue beyond the effect on the male youth of this church? In the entire ministry that was convened over years to these sisters in this church to encourage them to prepare for a regional mission to win others for Christ - not once in the entire process was the Cross mentioned. By contrast the entire process was in truth psychological and natural. It contained not a shred of spiritual worth because even if these sisters could have laid hold of some of its better portions - they would have had no means to ground that benefit in the only remedy the Father has given us to walk by faith. The Cross of Christ unto death, buried and raised from the dead in Christ, ascended with Christ in Him. “There is a charge of God for womankind to go and do what God has called her to do.” So the original post in this thread has to do with this effect. And the slogan above is its meaning. This slogan was taken from their teaching ministry that spanned several years and came to a halt in 2019 due to matters arising out of the Coronavirus Act 2020. It remains to be seen what will happen next year when convention season comes round again. What I did discover was various other ministries grounded in very lively and seemingly healthy churches that had taken this precept to an even more spiritually harmful level of effects amounting to a true Jezebelic spirit. I can also state factually that I went back and re listened to every session of this ministry again and did so simply to write this last post. Whilst I knew what I had discerned at the time - And was fully persuaded of the need to say it - as I did at the time in my own church - I felt obliged to re look at the evidence itself before making such a clear statement here where this has little seeming purpose. Yet I am also convicted that we all need to begin to draw the threads that have been woven into a false garment and which increasing numbers of churches are now clothing themselves in.

“Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. “But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. “But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” Matthew 13:24-30 (NASB) “And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” Matthew 13:37-43 (NASB) Beginning If we read these two passages of Scripture, the first thing we need an answer to is how it became possible for wheat and tares to be side by side drawing on the same nutrient? We also need to know what that nutrient is. As believers, we tend to look for the spiritual sense of things, and so we may miss the fact that everything we have in life, begins in the physical realm as far as our own experience is concerned. We need the wisdom of God to know that this physical realm of the earth is both our womb (Psalm 139:15), and our sustenance. We cannot set aside physical reality in favour of spiritual reality. The wisdom of God includes an understanding of both physical life and spiritual life. They are distinct and unified. Because of sin and death, they are to be separated eternally when this heavens and this earth pass away. Even as they are presently separated through the Cross, for the one who would walk in the Spirit. The physical cosmos is subject to futility because of sin and death, even as our own bodies are presently set at variance with spiritual ambitions. As it is written, “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please..” Gal 5:17 (NASB) An understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven, which does not include a knowledge of physical and spiritual realities, is flawed.

I couldn't agree more.

Well dear Sister your post is lucid and full of compassion and so I am confident that what I am about to share will be tested and then with the grace of God - applied to your thinking as the Spirit gives you direction and utterance. The power of God that - is unto Salvation - is the Gospel of Christ. How simple a matter is that in truth? - And yet we could easily miss the spiritual reality that is implied in these words and begin to pursued people to accept Christ. That persuasion may not be at all sinful but it is always the flesh - and to be clear - in modern parlance it almost always means psychological persuasion. That term psychological persuasion has another way of being expressed - And that is empathetic intelligence. Empathetic intelligence simply means an ability to identify with the other persons position when speaking with them - And so the term empathetic intelligence gets translated as compassion - whereas compassion is a fruit of the Spirit for a believer and not a natural fact of the mind. Almost anyone can be empathetic - whereas only the born again believer can be truly compassionate when compassion means to love as Christ loves. You are in reality sensing that already because that is implied in your post. But it has to be remembered - and the reason why it needs to be remembered is because: The power of God that - is unto Salvation - is the Gospel of Christ crucified for sin - all else follows on. It is never you - not even your experiences (empathetic intelligence) - but rather it is the power of God that comes when He sovereignly chooses to save a person. We can only bear witness of Christ and we need to remember - that must mean Christ crucified for sin - And that must include your sister coming to the certain knowledge that her sin is included in why Christ died. Not only a justified sin that happened because someone did a bad thing and we stumbled - but sin as a heart condition - even when we try to be the best we can be. How you go about bearing witness must of course be compassionate - but it must be the plain Gospel and nothing less than the plain Gospel if you want your sister to have deep soil to grow in when she gives her heart to God. May the Lord grant your sister the conviction of sin and renew in her heart the memory of that childish hope that once satisfied but now is not sufficient. Amen

Well it would be easy to understand your intention in those words if I took your words from another post where I spoke about asking the Lord a question when I was first saved and then I said what the Spirit answered me. So you replied, I like this answer, Lord. The implied meaning in voice therefore would be the Lord speaking to us. Whereas, it isn't possible to visualise joy. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit and not a thing to visualise. I just wanted to understand how you are using your words.

Can you explain those meanings please?