FreeGrace

Do you really think anyone could provide a reasonable response to such a very long post? Please, already. And as for all of the verses you quoted, none of them describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So just accept that fact. If there were going to be a glorified trip to heaven, there would be at least one verse that would describe it. And in ALL of the verses about resurrection and the "gathering" or being "caught up together", NONE of them mention Jesus taking them to heaven. So there is zero evidence for a "rapture" that includes Jesus taking believers to heaven after receiving a glorified body. And you have not provided any evidence for multiple resurrections. You can only speculate that there are, by trying to force the Second Advent in various passages to represent different resurrections. But again, the Bible is quite clear that there will be just ONE resurrection, which will be for "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) and it will occur "WHEN He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) which is a reference to the Second Advent, just as 2 Thess 2:1 is. The Bible speaks of resurrection ONLY in the singular, both for the saved and for the unsaved. And they are 1,000 years apart, as Rev 20:5 very plainly says.

How come there are no verses at all about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? And how come 1 Cor 15:23 tells us specifically WHEN the singular resurrection occurs, which is "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent. Also, 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing. "The dead in Christ rise first at the coming of Jesus. Then Jesus comes again for the alive Church. At that point part of the Jews eyes are opened as the fullness of the Gentiles has come. " Please prove from Scripture that the dead are resurrected at one point in time and the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of the eye" at another point. Rather, 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the living believers will be "caught up TOGETHER with the ones from heaven" . So this proves that both the dead saints from heaven and the living believers from earth all receive their glorified bodies at the SAME EVENT. "Then Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. After that Jesus returns for this harvest, his second bride, the chosen bride at the 6th seal." Please explain who exactly will be in this "next harvest". And then WHEN is "this harvest, His second bride"? How do you know when the 6th seal will be broken? "Jesus also returns at the end of wrath and there is a resurrection. So the point is the righteous are raised more than once. When He comes, those that are His at His coming are raised." Here is a "summary" of all these supposed resurrections: 1. the dead in Christ in the first resurrection. You haven't explained if that is just "the church" who have already died or includes all OT saints as well. 2. the living believers will be in a second resurrection, in spite of 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4. 3. A third resurrection will include the 144K of the "next harvest". No mention of exactly when that will be. 4. A fourth resurrection will be for "this harvest, the second bride at the 6th seal". Yet there is no evidence from Scripture about this. 5. A fifth resurrection will occur at the "end of wrath". But no explanation of who will be in that resurrection. Your claim about "the righteous are raised more than once" is absurd. No saved person will be resurrected more than once. And you haven't proven from Scripture with clear verses about all these supposed resurrections, or who is in some of them. 1 Cor 15:23 refutes all of this. "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." This verse is crystal clear. After the resurrection of Christ, as firstfruits, THEN, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people from Adam on, will be resurrected, WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent. So, as 1 Thess 4 shows, all believers will be glorified at the same event. And 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing. And Rev 20:4-6 plainly says that the tribulational martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection, and the only resurrection left is going to be 1,000 years later, which is the singular resurrection of the unbelievers. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I'm still not sure what his position or point is yet. His last few posts were simply requotes of the verses I have quoted. Maybe he'll answer your post.

My point is that there are only 2 resurrections of humans; one for the saved and one for the unsaved. The one for the saved includes all the living believers who will be "changed" in the air. The resurrection of the saved will occur at the Second Advent, which will be 1,000 years before the resurrection of the unsaved.

I don't understand your post. All you did was requote the verses I quoted, which prove that there will be A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved. And you gave no explanation or anything. So, do you have a point of disagreement or not? You only asked this one question regarding Dan 12, not 2: Why does it not say ALL that sleep in the ground shall be raised? It does qualify that some are raised to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. So, I'll ask you a very obvious question: why would anyone think that the Bible SHOULD say "all that sleep in the ground"? Since we know from several other NT verses that there will be believers ALIVE at the resurrection of the saved, they AREN'T sleeping in the ground. So that would explain why the author wrote "many of them". Because not ALL OF THEM will be sleeping in the ground. Certainly, most will be.

I have already quoted the verses about the single resurrection of the saved. Didn't you read my post?? Here they are again: Dan 12:2, John 5:29, Acts 24:15. All speak of resurrection in the singular. Can you quote any verse that speaks of the resurrection of the saved in the plural? The phrase about "sleeping in the ground" is simply a reference to DEAD BODIES, which will raise up at the resurrection, both of the saved and the unsaved. However, the souls of the saved are in heaven and the souls of the unsaved are in Hades, awaiting their resurrection.

The resurrection of the saved is not referred to as a "harvest". There is only one resurrection. It will occur at the Second Advent, as already shown from Scripture.

The Bible is very clear about there being only ONE resurrection of the saved, and one of the unsaved. Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15. The Bible is also very clear about WHEN that single resurrection occurs: "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1. So, one would have to argue that Rev 14 is about the Second Advent., if there is a "rapture" there. And, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected glorified saints to heaven. My view about Rev 14 is firm; it's about the battle of Armageddon. Just before Jesus comes back to earth to reign for 1,000 years.

There is no connection between any of the OT harvests and the resurrection. And all of Rev 14:14-20 is about the Tribulation. "Revelation 14 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. Here are the righteous of the 12 tribes that are harvested in Revelation 14." The subject here is the produce "of the vine of the EARTH". The following explains what the sharp sickle is for: 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. This is all part of the context for v.14-16. It is all about the same thing. There is no resurrection, much less a "rapture". Again, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven.

Please explain what you mean by "the harvest". I don't believe that the resurrection is ever referred to as a "harvest". And please add the verse/passage where you see the righteous of the 12 tribes going anywhere. Thanks.

First, the very concept of the word "rapture" isn't found in the Bible. So it's an unbiblical idea. Jesus does not take glorified believers to heaven. Or the Bible would have said so. And again, there is no mention of anyone being taken to heaven in Rev 14. From v.14-20, it's all about the winepress of God's wrath on EARTH. Since there is only 1 resurrection of believers, where do you place it on the timeline of history?

All 3 of the verses you cited (1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:23, and Matt 24) refer to the same event, which is the second advent of Christ. That's when the single resurrection of the saints will occur. Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 plainly say that there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved. The 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart, according to Rev 20:4-6. What is missing from every resurrection is any mention of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. I think your comment about "the clouds of heaven" is part of the problem. None of the verses that reference the resurrection say anything about "of heaven". That is an addition that isn't in the text. What seems so obvious is that when Jesus returns to earth with all the saints of heaven and gathers up the living believers, they meet "in the air", as 1 Thess 4 actually says. So the "clouds" would obviously be "in the air". Consider Jesus' ascension in Acts 1. As Jesus left, His 11 disciples could see Him "in the clouds". And the angel told them that He would return "in the same way". So, all references of believers being gathered "in the clouds" would be in earth's atmosphere. And, no description of glorified believers being taken to heaven in any verse.

please do read all from v.14 to v.20. Why would Jesus be sitting on a cloud with a sharp sickle, just like the angel who also has a sharp sickle who uses it to create lots and lots of blood and there is the winepress of God's wrath. There is no rapture in Rev 14. No words that even come close to a "rapture". Just as there are no words in John 14:1-4 that come close to a "rapture".

There will be many martyrs who will "come out of the great Tribulation". All saints who die go to heaven immediately. This is no mystery. What I am talking about is the claim about a "rapture" where those who "are alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM in the air" per 1 Thess 4:17 and THEN are taken to heaven in glorified bodies. Regarding Rom 8:23, do you know WHEN the "redemption of our body" will occur? At the Second Advent when Jesus returns with all the saints that are already in heaven, and everyone (all the saved) will receive their glorified body.

Certainly not in Rev 14:14. I proved from the whole context what the subject was about. 1. sharp sickles 2. lots and lots of blood 3. winepress of God's wrath. Why would anyone think all this would be involved in the resurrection of believers?

In fact, there will be NO "rapture", if by that word one means a trip to heaven in a glorified body. There is no mention of such a trip to heaven anywhere in the Bible. Further, the Bible teaches plainly that there be just one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15. 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 tell us when the singular resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will be: "when He comes". Every reference to the "coming of the Lord" is a reference to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesies about the Messiah's TWO advents. First advent as a baby to become the Suffering Servant and second advent as King of kings and Lord of lords. That's it; just two advents. Rev 20:4-6 tells us plainly that the first resurrection (of the saved at the Second Advent) will be 1,000 years before the second resurrection (of the unsaved).

Rev 14:14-20 The entire context for v.14 Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress 14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. v.14 cannot be about any resurrection or gathering of those who are alive and remain on the earth. v.15 tells us the purpose of the "sharp sickle" in v.14. To "harvest the EARTH". There is nothing about believers, saints, etc. It's about the earth. Then in v.17 we have an angel also with a sharp sickle, and v.18 has an angel telling this armed angel to gather the clusters of grapes from the EARTH. v.19 is most telling: the grapes that were harvested are thrown into "the great winepress of God's WRATH!" And v.20 tells us the results of reaping the EARTH: blood, blood, and more blood. This passage is about what will take place at the battle of Armageddon. There is nothing here about a "rapture".

I said this: "But that's not the issue. The common view of "rapture" means a glorified trip to heaven. But the Bible never describes such a trip." Rev 7- 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. No mention of a trip to heaven in a glorified body. v.9 describes people in heaven. All saints who die go to heaven. v.10-12 describe these saints as worshiping God. v.13-14 explains that these saints "have come out of the tribulation". It doesn't say they were resurrected into glorified bodies. Heb 12- 18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, Could you point out which verse(s) that describe Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven? I'm not seeing it. Thanks.

I don't have an opinion. I have very clearly written literal verses in Rev 20. It is YOU with the opinion that the literal words, which don't need interpreting, are only metaphors for something else. I just can't imagine believers who discredit the King's LITERAL rule over the nations. It couldn't be any more clear. When the Tribulation ends, Jesus returns to RULE over the nations, with a rod of iron. In fact, Jesus indicated this in Matt 5. What you've done with your opinion is to spiritualize Rev 20, which can't be proven. However, the normal literal reading speaks for itself. Doesn't need to be interpreted. And your opinion about " day being 1,000 years" from 2 Peter is simply indefensible. The contexts are different. There is no way to link the 2 passages. Peter was indicating that Genesis 1 is parallel to the whole of human history, or 7,000 years, the last 1K being the MK, which exactly parallels God's 7th day rest. Scholars have calculated that there has beeen approx 6,000 years of human history so far, and it appears that we are about (or already IN) the last 7 years before the MK. But you are free to your own opinions. I will comfortably stay with the literal reading of Rev 20. Which doesn't need any interpreting.

I don't need to have anything, other than just the truth. And I can fully support my views from Scripture. You said: "Notice the destiny of those who are being separated. 41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Verse 46a goats eternal punishment, 46b sheep, righteous eternal life" The destiny is obvious, of course. But there is no clear statement that both the saved and the unsaved are being judged at the same event. We know from Rev 20:4-6 that the 2 resurrections (1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved) are 1,000 years apart, and the GWT will occur at the end of the MK. While the Bible doesn't specifically state when the Bema occurs, and we know that all the saved will be glorified at the Second Advent, it only makes sense that the saved will receive their reward then. I have no problem with the saved being present at the GWT. They will be there in service to the King and/or ruling with Him. But their judgment (Bema) will be at the beginning of the MK, which only makes sense.

Remember, in the context of ch 10, Jesus speaks of the "sheep pen" in v.1. Who's sheep are in a pen? All the shepherds who use the pen. So the sheep in the pen aren't just one shepherd's sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Notice "his own sheep" in v.3, so clearly there are OTHER sheep there as well. And v.4 continues the idea with "all his own". Meaning, there are sheep in the pen that are Not "his own". So when Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, He was referring to the whole pen, which refers to the whole human race. This is affirmed by ALL the verses that say that He died for "all", "everyone". And the fact that there are no verses that say that Jesus died for "ONLY" a group from the human race.

No, I wasn't. v.16 refers to Gentile believers. I had in mind v.26 - but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. Jesus didn't call them "goats", but "sheep" that were not His. So in the whole context of John 10, Jesus noted sheep that are HIS and sheep that are NOT HIS, and makes the point that He will die for THE sheep. Obviously meaning all the sheep (humans).

The problem is that I never said Matt 25 "only" represents the unsaved. It is clear that "those on the right" are saved. Give me a break. And I explained how the saved will be at the GWT judgment: not to be judged, since they will have already been to the Bema at the 2nd Advent, but to assist the King as He judges the unsaved.

I had said: "OK, I asked where you got your opinion about Rev 20:1-6 not being literal, and you won't answer. " So do I and neither the Holy Spirit nor Scripture told me Rev 20 isn't literal. So, basically, you don't have any evidence for your opinion about Rev 20. That's the problem with taking passages non literally. You can pretty much say anything and who can refute what you say? But taking the passage literally, AS IT WAS OBVIOUSLY WRITTEN, removes all doubt about what it means.

OK, this is what I said: "When I read about the sheep and goats in Matt 25, it seems clear to me that this occurs at the GWT judgment, which is for the unsaved. So, where are all the glorified believers at this point? Probably serving the King at this judgment. So there will be "sheep" at the "goat" judgment, obviously." In John 10, there ARE unsaved sheep. Jesus spoke of both HIS sheep and those (sheep) who were NOT HIS. Together, they make up THE sheep, for which Jesus said He would die for. This is elementary. Context is key here. I never said Matt 25 had unsaved sheep.