FreeGrace

Yes, I agree. But we know that man has a soul and spirit, both of which are immaterial. When else would God have put a spirit other than when He breathed into Adam's nose the "breath of life"? I think it's obvious. I agree. And the very words "RE-generation", "born AGAIN", and "made alive" are literal words that mean something literal. The only thing that fits is the human spirit, which did die on the day Adam ate the fruit and then hid from the Lord. Therefore, every human being is born spiritually dead, which refers to the human spirit, and is why everyone needs to be born again, or RE-generated, in order to worship God. Jn 4:24 I don't understand this nor how it might refer to the 3 parts of man. The human spirit doesn't just disappear at death. It stays with man until it is born again, if the person believes in the Savior. I don't believe God breathed the Holy Spirit into Adam. We know from 1 Thess 5:23 that man has 3 parts; body, soul and spirit. And Heb 4:12 indicates that the soul and spirit are related but separate. These are the things that convince me. Oh, btw, the literal Hebrew of Gen 2:17, which is the warning against eating the fruit, is "on the day you eat of it, DYING you shall surely die." Two mentions of death iin the original. The first one, dying, is a process word. One dies of old age, or various serious illnesses. I believe Gen 5:5 records Adam's age from the day he ate the fruit and he began to age. We have no information about how long Adam lived before he ate the fruit. The second mention, die, occurred on the day he ate. That was immediate, and refers to the human spirit literally dying when he ate. And this is spiritual death.

Gen 1:26 says God created man "in His image". God (Elohim) is plural, meaning more than one. The Bible describes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, that makes 3, so God is Triune. 1 Thess 5:23 describes the 3 parts of man: body, soul and spirit. Heb 4:12 says the Word of God divides soul and spirit. That means there are 2 immaterial parts of man, both of which were breathed into Adam, which then made him "a living being". And not until then. All of this clearly supports the understanding that when Adam ate the fruit, he became spiritually dead. So naturally, that would refer to the human spirit. Can't be the soul, since the soul includes the conscious, intellect, emotions, etc. The human spirit, according to Jesus is necessary for worshiping God. John 4:24.

God breathed it into man, so it involves a human. What I have to deal with are the clear words: RE-generation, born AGAIN, made ALIVE. These are literal things. And 1 Thess 5:23 speaks of 3 things involved in humans; body, soul and spirit. And they are literal as well. So the only thing that makes sense to me regarding what died "on the day" Adam ate the fruit would be the human spirit. Souls don't die, and Adam didn't die until 930 years later (Gen 5:5). And being born with a dead human spirit explains the words "spiritually dead". Yes, we are separated from God, because our human spirit is dead at birth. Which is why we MUST be born again. In order to be able to worship God, per John 4:24. Heb 4:12 indicates the soul and spirit can be separated. They are related but separate. Just as bone and marrow are related but separate.

After A & E, every human is pro-created, from God's plan. God created A & E in His image. That means the first 2 humas were created tripartite, to reflect the Triune God. There is no other way to define "image". 1 Thess 5:23 - body, soul and spirit. When Adam sinned, what died "on the day" was his human spirit. That is why every human is born with a dead human spirit, which is described as being "spiritually dead". And the reason everyone needs to be born AGAIN. When a person believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for salvation, they are RE-generated, meaning their dead human spirit is "made alive", per Eph 2:5.

There is no mention of condemnation in these verses, but v.10 is clear that all of our works/deeds/etc will be evaluated (judged). v.11 focuses on the fact that bad deeds, even quite morally good deeds, though done in the power of the sinful nature, will result in loss of reward. Yes, at both judgments, the Bema and GWT, the King will evaluate all the deeds done by each person, the saved and the unsaved. As John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say, condemnation is only for those who "have not believed", meaning have NEVER believed.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. The red words are clear to me. Which reminds me of 2 verses that say that condemnation is only for those who have never believed, John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. The phrase "have not believed" means "have never believed". Those are who will be condemned.

It appears Rom 8:1 is referring to the ultimate condemnation, or the LOF, which won't be an issue for believers.

Thanks for pointing out Gen 9:6, which is further evidence that even though man now has a sin nature, he is still in the image of God, which points to body, soul and spirit as to what the "image" is; namely, man is tripartite and God is Triune. So even unbelievers have a human spirit, but is dead, which we call spiritual death. And with faith in Christ, the human spirit is "made alive" (Eph 2:5) or RE-generated, and man becomes a 'new creation' (2 Cor 5:17).

Yes, based on how the Bible describes humans, which links to how God created man. Well, this I disagree with. What evidence is there for animals having both a soul and spirit? But you did. 😁 Ruach and its other forms has a broad usage, from God Himself to the wind. The obvious given that the brain of both man and animal is the 'computer' that runs the body, that may be the meaning in Eccl 3:21 and similar verses. Again, I disagree that animals have both a body and spirit. Gen 2:17 is a clear warning about death from eating the fruit. In the actual Hebrew, there are 2 deaths. English translations: in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. Literal Hebrew: in the day that you eat of it, DYING you shall surely DIE. This is easily verified by googling "literal Hebrew of Gen 2:17". Some sites will acknowledge the fact and then say it isn't significant, while others will note the significance. I, for one, see great significance in the warning. We know that both A & E died on that day. But it wasn't physical, obviously. So what else could have died? If the soul, then they would be vegetables, basically. So the only other logical and reasonable option is the spirit. That is where "spiritual death" comes from. Adam's spirit died, rendering his relationship with God severed, which is why he and the woman hid when the Lord came calling. Jesus told the woman at the well in John 4:24 that one "must worship God in spirit and in truth". On biblehub.com the "spirit" is capitalized, but the other 32 translations isn't capitalized. I believe Jesus was telling the woman that in order to worship God one must possess a functional (living) human spirit and worship according to God's plan (truth). This is why everyone needs to be born AGAIN, or RE-generated or "made alive". These words specifically indicate a change in the person, which I am convinced is the regeneration of the dead human spirit. That is what makes the believer a "new creation" per 2 Cor 5:17. While you are defining the 'soul', include a definition of 'spirit' which you believe animals have as well. As for me (and my household) lol, I believe animals have brain function similar (parallel?) to man's, but lack any conscience, which differentiates animals from humans. Animals were created with instinct. They do what they were created to do, unlike humans. That's why some humans act like animals. But we never see any animals acting like humans. 😁

I thought we were. What am I missing? Believers are to be in awe of the King's justice and afraid of what we'll miss out on reward.

All summed up in the tripartite man: body, soul and human spirit. 1 Thess 5:23

Exactly! No, but all humans possess a body, a soul and a human spirit, which is dead at birth but "made alive" (Eph 2:5) through faith in Christ. (Eph 2:8) Correct. But all humans having a body, soul and spirit does exactly fit the definition of God's image. The animal, plant, fish, and bug kingdoms don't have a soul, where the intellect, emotions, conscience etc resides. I think what makes us "human" is our tripartite existence; body, soul and spirit. I know I sound like a broken recotrd, but it is very important in order to understand about spiritual death and life.

So, God creating man "in OUR image" with body, soul and human spirit" fulfills the requirement for "everyone to equally share it". Everyone is born with a body, soul, but dead human spirit. That is why everyone needs to be born again, or "made alive" (Eph 2:5). Right. Body, soul and spirit. Man was created tripartite just as God is Triune.

As I pointed out, the Greek word is used in two ways: phobos: Fear, terror, reverence, respect Original Word: φόβος Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: phobos Pronunciation: FOH-bos Phonetic Spelling: (fob'-os) Definition: Fear, terror, reverence, respect Meaning: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect. Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H3374 (yirah): Fear, reverence, piety - H3373 (yare): Fearful, afraid, reverent Usage: In the New Testament, "phobos" primarily denotes a sense of fear or terror, often in response to the divine or supernatural. It can also imply reverence or awe, particularly in the context of the fear of the Lord, which is a profound respect and recognition of God's power and holiness. The term is used both in a negative sense, as in fear of danger or judgment, and in a positive sense, as in reverence for God. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, "phobos" was commonly associated with fear of the gods, natural phenomena, or military threats. In Jewish thought, the fear of the Lord was a central theme, emphasizing a relationship with God characterized by awe, obedience, and worship. This dual aspect of fear—both as terror and reverence—reflects the broader cultural understanding of the divine as both protector and judge. Seems to me that believers should and will respect and revere the King's judgment on our lives on earth, whether they have been "good or bad", as v.10 says. The terror part would refer to our bad behavior, and how much reward we'll lose/miss out on. But also, respect and awe for the King's perfect judgment regarding our lives. We know from the fact that there will be a resurrection for both the saved and unsaved, and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly shows that "those who belong to Him" (all saved people) will be resurrected "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent. Then, Rev 20:5 shows the "first" resurrection (of believers) will be 1,000 years before the second resurrection (of unbelievers), followed immediately by the GWT judgment, which will be for unbelievers only. So the Bema is for believers and the GWT is for unbelievers. Since all believers will already have been resurrected and glorified 1,000 years before the GWT judgment, this can only be for all unbelievers.

It seems clear to me that 3 verses teach that there will be a (singular) resurrection for the saved and a (singular) resurrection for the unsaved: Dan 12:2, Joh n 5:29 and Acts 24:15. Rev 20:5 clearly shows them being 1,000 years apart. We know that the Bema will not end in being cast into the LOF since the Bible teaches eternal security. 2 Cor 5:11 is "terror" in the KJV, but "fear for the Lord" in most others. That word refers to respect, not being afraid.

Seems Paul is trying to encourage believers to strive for rewards, rather than face the "terror (wrath) of the Lord", over the "bad things" that will be evaluated at the Bema. It seems real clear to me that the Bema and GWT judgment will be 1,000 years apart, based on Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Context from v.4 is the resurrection of believers at the Second Advent, even though it only mentions trib martyrs. 1 Cor 15:23 clearly says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".

Context explains the "casting of crowns". 9 - And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne who lives forever and ever, 10 - the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying: v.9 shows that "whenever" the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks, THEN the 24 elders fall down and cast their crown before the throne. So the "casting of crowns" is an on-going activity, not a one time event. That implies that they cast their crowns over and over, which will be "whenever" the living creatures give glory to the King.

Great question! Both 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:11-15 mention a throne. And Jesus will reign on both of them. The difference is that the JSC will occur at the Second Advent, and the GWT judgment will occur at the end of the Millennial reign. Rev 20:5 So, same throne, same Judge, different attendees. 😁

Technically, no. All humans after A&E come from procreation. But the process involves what God did create. And thanks for starting this thread, because the issue is far more important than many understand. And it explains a number of NT words that need to be understood. Granted, understanding the phrase "in the image of God" isn't required for salvation, it is important to understand exactly what it does mean and why it is so important. All believers will be literally supernatural when we receive our resurrection bodies, that will be imperishable, and just like the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus. In the meantime, God the Holy Spirit dwells in each believer's body, and what is accomplished through His power is supernatural. Close. Yes, there is a restoration, so to speak. Which explains exactly what it means to be created in the image of God. I think Paul beat you to the charge. Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Eph 5:18 - Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, These 2 verses are essentially saying the same thing. Believers must be under the influence of the Spirit in order to produce the righteousness that God desires and commands of us. Even unbelievers can live moral lives, be good citizens, etc. However, all of this is nothing more than human "good", which still comes from the flesh. Paul noted that even the Gentiles have a conscience with which to understand right from wrong, so that is common among all mankind. However, Isa 64:6 gives proper focus on how God views (smells) mankind's moral good (our righteousnesses). "For we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Horrifically, the red words refer to the literal Hebrew; used menstral rags!! And it is referring to the BEST our flesh can produce! So, a quick history lesson. Gen 1:1 "God" is in the plural in the Hebrew, 'Elohim'. Gen 1:26 - Then God (Elohim) said, “Let US make mankind in OUR image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” It is clear that 'God' is more than One Person here. We know from the rest of Scripture that 'God' means the Triune God, unless specifically identified as the Son of God or God the Holy Spirit, or Father God. The only reasonable understanding of being created "in OUR image" refers to the Triune God. So Elohim created man as tripartite: body, soul and spirit. And this is affirmed in the NT. 1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Heb 4:12 shows the soul and spirit are related but separate, just as the "joints and marrow" are related but separate. "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." OK, back to Genesis. This time the warning in 2:17 - but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. However, the literal Hebrew reads: "in the day that you eat of it, DYING, you shall surely DIE." This can easily be proved by googling the Hebrew of Gen 2:17. So, what do we do with what Moses actually wrote? We know that "dying" is a process, such as aging. iow, old age can kill us. And the verse is very clear; IN the DAY that you eat... you shall surely die. So, clearly something did DIE on the day they ate. But it wasn't physical. It was spiritual, and specifically the human spirit died. Now, does that mean the spirit goes away? No. And we can understand that by the very words of the NT: RE-generated, born AGAIN, NEW birth, "made alive". All these words refer to what happens to a person who expresses saving faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. For these words to be literal, which they are, there MUST be a dead human spirit present. If Adam's spiritual death when he ate the fruit meant that the human spirit went away, then how can these words be literal? "made alive" clearly indicates that something that was not alive has been MADE alive. This shows that humans are born with a living soul and body but a dead human spirit. And we call that state "spiritual death" because the human spirit is literally dead, but present, just as a physically dead body is still present, when the soul/spirit leaves the body. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well: God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the spirit and in truth.” John 4:24 Granted, various translations capitalize the second 'spirit', but it makes sense that in order to worship God according to His plan, man must have a living human spirit and worship in the truth of the written Word. So, because of being born with a dead human spirit, everyone NEEDS to be born AGAIN. Only with a functional (living) human spirit can anyone have a proper relationship with God. The best man can do apart from RE-generation is his own moral efforts (filthy rags), which stink to God. So, the only time believers please God is by living in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1:9), by faith (Heb 11:6) and being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18). Everything less is merely human good (filthy rags), and may explain why so many believers struggle so much. Given the RE-generation of the human spirit, and knowing that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer, it should be clear or at least logical that He would reside IN the RE-generated human spirit. That thinking helps us to understand 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. While this verse suggests one can achieve sinlessness, it is referring to the human spirit "born of God" and "God's seed". Rather, the verse teaches that when the believer is functioning from the human spirit (filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18, Gal 5:16) they can't sin. Too many verses prove that believers continue to sin, so the verse cannot be about achieving sinlessness. The only time a believer isn't sinning is when they are in fellowship through confession (1 John 1:9) and acting from their human spirit (Eph 5:18, Gal 5:18).

So true!! But sadly, there are those who did believe in Christ, and then, like the second soil of Luke 8:13, fell away from their faith. The world class evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham, Charles Templeton, is one such example.

If this were all true, then the Bible is horribly internally contradicted and cannot be trusted as God's Word. The best way to determine the veracity and validity of what someone claims is to compare with Scripture, like the Bereans did in Acts 17:11. OSAS is easily biblically proven. Loss of salvation comes by lots of presuppositions, since there are no clearly worded verses that say it is. And on and on. It seems the real issue is that believers aren't actually paying attention to what they are being taught in many cases. They just "drink it all in" as if from God's Word. The Bereans knew the Scriptures, so when Paul came preaching, they could easily compare what he said with what Scripture said. I began reading through the NT monthly about 25 years ago and it has served me very well in spotting false teaching. This is the key, obviously. Unless believers actually study the Word of Truth, they can't possibly compare with others say with what the Bible says. But that seems to be where we are today. Sad.

No problem.

My understanding of the Bible is of course not 100%. I don't believe anyone's is. To say "God always gets what He wants" is applicable when one realizes that God wants His creatures the freedom to to believe or not. There are verses that say "men refused to believe" twice in Acts. This alone proves that mankind as the ability to believe, since a refusal is a choice, and every choice has at least 2 options to choose from. If there are no options, there are no choices.

Ok, here is the original post: FreeGrace said: 1 Tim 2:4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Your response: Do you believe that God gets what God wants? Is that clear enough?

Well, it seems you forgot to recall Satan's original sin, per Isa 14:12-14. 12 - How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 - 14 - You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14 - I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” Pride was the original sin. Are you serious?? If that were true, then God actually creates EVIL. I reject that as strongly as possible. What God creates is freedom for His creatures. And then holds them accountable for their choices. Isn't that obvious?