sagz4Christ

A Story...... A group of the world's top scientists got together and decided to try and prove the beginning of life in the "primordial soup" thought to be present in the early years of the earth's formation. After years and years of research and development...the experiment was ready. In a labratory...deep beneath the earth...in a highly sterile environment...under the close...scrutinized watch of these many world renowned men and women...the stage was set. They had created the conditions in an observation container filled with the elemets gathered throughout earth's atmosphere...crust...water...and plants. In the heat...and environmental conditions set by the scientists...(I forget what it is called...)some kind of protien started forming. They were exstatic! This was wonderful news!!! In the joy of the moment...one of the scientists called out to God and said, "TAKE THAT!!! WE CAN DO IT TOO!!" In a booming voice that seemed to come from every direction....the people in that room were stopped dead in their tracts when they heard the words, "Oh yeah? Next time...get your own chemicals." hehehehe

Jake and GodsLove26, I echo your sentiments. My tummy actually turned while reading. Yod....I agree that civil discussion might not be possible. In fact...it more than likely is impossible. It seems to me to be the trend is that as soon as someone disagrees with what a Catholic says....we are labled ignorant....childish...and unable to see the truth. To be fair...we don't react to that in the best of Christian spirit either. We say the same thing to them...they are blind , ignorant and childish. It is a never-ending cycle. I have stopped giving my lend to arguments like this. I will only post small replys to posts I think are God-filled so as to encourage and strengthen my brothers and sisters. I see no love.....and this is something that also sickens me. Jake....I used to say I don't have a problem with Catholics. And for the most part...I can still say I don't. Most are loving and tolerant of other people. Even if they don't agree. I always thought Catholics were a people defined by great love for humans...I always thought they were mindfull of peoples feelings and was completely unaware that they were quick to label "un"believers as childish and stupid. I have to admit to everyone that my taste for Catholics have started to go sour. I am prying about this and don't doubt that the Lord will work on me concerning this trial in my life. Until then though...I think it best not to say anything to our Catholic friends here on this forum. I applaude our moderators for their wisdom and patience. I know if it were me...there would be three people banned....but then again....I am emotional right now...and not thinking with the Spirit given me by our Father. I would ask that my brothers and sisters that read this pray for me. Thank you and everyone.....have a good day.... ~a servant in Christ

I think that if we are not careful, this thread could be highjacked!!! I am seeing a shift in focus here....and feel it important to remind all parties involved that we are dealing with the age of our chuch/denominations as a way to verify the authenticity of it. (Not my idea of a subject...but that isn't for me to decide!!) Anyway...I wonder if we have gone too far off course to be able to get back on the subject at hand? Just a thought.

Amen, Mike!! You go , brother!!!

And He didn't follow the Jewish organised religion. He followed the Law of God. Two different things. Judaism added to the Law of God...making it utterly impossible to fullfill the requirements set forth by God. Not to say that those requirements would have been any easier....but the priests had added to (and taken away from) parts of the law to suit them. Basically, the leaders of the Jewish community had made their religion nothing more than an external "white-washing." Look at the Sermon on the Mount. In Matthew Chapter 5, Jesus took the six most popular topics and offers quotes wither from the Law or from the traditional teachings of the day; then with each one He gives insight on how to model a righteousness that surpasses all the external stuff. Subject: So you see...He did anything BUT follow the traditional customs of His time. He came to teach the TRUE worship of God and do away with tradition for the most part.

Wow. nice. thanks. Goes for your above quote brother. RIght back atcha! Seems to me you have said this before.... Wow! You REALLY need to take your own advice!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!! I USED to be Protestant I KNOW OF WHAT I SPEAK! So it feels just fine thanks! Have you ever been Catholic? I am not stabbing in the dark on issues of Protestanism - I LIVED THEM FOR CLOSE TO TEN YEARS! You don't have a leg to stand on! Right. I told him I would give him DETAILED responses and HE REFUSED! He DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW AT ALL! Go back and RE-READ friend! Is flamming the same as flaming? SAINT Matthew 5:15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house. No one here is home I suppose. I DON'T HAVE TO "LEARN" IT - I LIVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! No thank you. an excellent example of straw-man tactics.

Uncalled for and utterly un-Christian. He is simply asking for Biblical documentation for what you believe. I ask the same thing. Replies such as this make me think that you don't have any references and are hiding it by (flamming) another poster. I can really see your attempt at learning what we believe and why we believe it. How old are you again?

I remember asking you to show love. Just as you think my brother in Christ is "biased and not interested in Truth," so we too think the same thing. As we both know this cannot be so, why not start trying to find an agreeable "common ground." I asked you not to post some article showing that everyone not in the RCC is not saved. That flies in the face of every believer here. And millions all over the world. It offends me when you...who does not even know me, OR my walk with the Lord....(which is personal by the way)...when you come here and tell me I am going to hell because I am not Catholic. I could really care less about your background, or how you came to be in the RCC to begin with. The fact of the matter is you ARE in the RCC, and you are in a CHRISTIAN forum board telling us we are "lost!!" Are you so pious that you can really KNOW us?? Can you honestly see right thorugh us?? I thought that was only for the LORD to do!! Are you HIM?!? You will forgive my tone, I am offended by you and this incredulous post. While I appreciate your concern for our souls, I would simply ask again that you keep things civil. As I am sure, on your board, if I were to say things as you are here, I would be banned before you could say the word. Are you showing love in this remark? No. Are we....probably not...but consider the reasons we are irritated.... 1. You come here and ask to have discussion on the difference of Catholicism(sp) and Protestantism. You (along with a few others) then proceed to bash, belittle, and harrass anyone that gives contrary opinion to you! You don't even concider any Scripture references that seem to speak against what you are teaching!!! This does not boad well for you and your insistence of friendly and loving debate! If the dates set forth are phoney...PROVE IT!! Show us where we are wrong reather than just SAY it!! Show forth your EVIDENCE (something very important to any good apologist as you claim to be). As for this paragraph: It would help to keep things in context, if you wish to get the truth behind any Scripture. Matthew 5:25-26 In this passage, our Lord is talking about PRISON. JAIL. JUDGES. AND CRIMES! He is exhorting us to settle matters as much as possible outside of court. The NIV renders v 25 this way: Quite obviously, our Lord does not want us to take each other to court and have a judge settle our personal disputes. He would rather we handle our own problems. Verse 26 comes directly out of that; If we don't settle matters, our punishment will be to make FULL restitution to our adversary. This cannot be used to teach purgatory. When we die...it is either glory with Christ....or eternal damnation. Black...or white. No second chances...remembe the rich young ruler who never helped poor Lazarus? Don't you think that if there were second chances...he would have taken it?? As a matter of fact, he asked for a chance. He asked for a drop of water from heaven!! No, my friend....he had his chance in this life. He choose "poorly" (Indiana Jones and the last Crusade...couldn't help it!). The next one....1 Corinthians 3:15... Again...I must stress CONTEXT Let's have a look: 1 Cor 3:10-15 Alright...the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians is laying the foundation of salvation by faith through CHRIST! Now he is getting into talking about works...and rewards... Building on the foundation (Christ) with "gold, silver, precious stone," is building for reward in heaven, because as verse 13 says, every man's work will be tried by fire. None of these three examples are destroyed in fire, so the one who builds with them is like the man in verse14...he will receive a reward. On the other hand, if someone builds with wood, hay and stubble, these get burned up in fire and nothing remains but charred ruins...sometimes only ash....the one who builds with these in his life is like the man in verse 15 (whom you quoted); he will suffer loss...but will still be SAVED!! but only as through fire...(it hurts tremendously to be burned). Have you ever been burned? Next....Revelation 21:27 Hmm....intereseting thing you left out of the verse....BUT ONLY THOSE WHOSE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE!! Those are the ones who are pure...don't do anything shameful or deceitful. Who are the ones whose names are written in this Book?? LEt's find out, shall we? Rev 3:5 Speaking to His disciples, Jesus said the following: Luke 10:20 Ok...we have the picture now. The righteous will be the ones with their names written in heaven (book of life). These are the ones refered to in your verse (Rev 21:27). The righteous are the ones that confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead. We rejoice that our names are written in heaven. And at that time when we get there, we will be resurected into our perfect bodies able to "enter in" the gates of heaven. Again...no grounds for teaching about purgatory...or even praying for the dead. That may have been in the OT...but when Christ came...He made perfect the law given in the OT and freed us from the bondage of that law. And He also abolished some OT practices. If we were still to pray for the dead....it would be taught in the NEW TESTAMENT (COVENANT), The truth is...it isn't taught. Plain and simple. I know you will reject this...and I pray you don't...but I will not be lookiing at this thread again as this issue will never end. Much like another topic I deabte with a dear brother.....(Jake)......lol You would do well to study how to debate properly. You are making alot of mistakes and I may be impelled to call you on them. I already have with two of your mistakes....there are yet a few more. good day ~sagz P.S. How does that feel?

It sounds like support for Bush is dwindling fast. If this keeps up, he won't be president next election. I wonder if people know the consequences if that happens. I wonder if people realize what the Democrates are up to. I wonder if people know what the other runners (all nine of them I think) have on Thier agenda(s). I find it hard to understand what the president is doing these days as well. Some of the things don't make very much sense to me, but I am not a fan of politics. I try hard not to bash him though. He is openly Christian, and that requires that I pray or him. I wonder how many of us are praying for him instead of being disgruntled. ~your servant in Christ

thank you sooo much RGR! I can deal with disagreement...and even a rebuke if needed when it is done out of love. I know for me, Gary is hard to understand sometimes...but..well...I said my piece. I am studying this topic right now and am finding some pretty interesting things out. I will come back and post again when I am done with my study. Thank you again for the honesty and love in your post. ~your servant in Christ

you know, I was in the middle of a long post dealing with each part of your reply, Gary. Halfway through I gave up and decided to only point this one sentence out. you have offended me. deeply. I will assume you did not mean to, and will forgive you even if you don't ask for it. In the future, I ask that you refrain from talking like that to me. I understand maybe...and that is a BIG maybe that I might have needed a talking to....but, friend, you had no right to come down on me like that. super spiritualist!? I thought you knew me better than that. I am not saying...nor have I EVER said I was perfect, and in full knowledge of the mysteries of God. How dare you insinuate that I even came CLOSE to implying that. I am shocked....and hurt by those words, Gary. oh, and by the way, what goes on between me and the Holy Spirit is OUR business. He lets me know when I mess up, and the rebuke I got from you...at least for now, has not been godly, for I have not been convicted yet for what I said. I have been abused for giving my opinion, and even hurt deeply, but conviction is not yet come. I will let you know when and if it does. ~sagz

It must have been overlooked that I never intended to make the gift of tongues sound like babble. I simply stated what the Bible said about the gift, and that I felt uncomfortable when grown people talked in such a way as to have noone understand what they are saying. Picture this: We are in a time of prayer....intense prayer.....the Spirit of God is really moving through us....all of a sudden, someone starts yelling "asd;lfjkvw eoif a;lsdkf asdlkfjalsiuuyhvadsiuh skjb ajdf a;s fdfhdsaufhiu ajkdf lvcjbv c dskjska aksjd jdjdwe89kjd!!" I'm sorry...what was that? No translation...no witness...nothing but incoherrant words..if you can call them that. To be honest....I personally am not a fan of this gift...but Scripture does in fact say that the specific gift of tongues of for unbelievers. Not believers. Please understand, Gary, I am not trying to take anything away from the Spirit of God. I am only trying to understand more fully what Scripture says. The gift of tongues does not automatically assume you will talk in some strange, never heard of language. It actually refers to literal "tongues", or the various languages of men. Yes...I know the Spirit makes groanings that we cannot understand...but this does not automatically assume those groanings are some incoherant talk. Have you ever heard someone groaning under thier breath? You can only catch a word or two...so you ask..."What was that? I didn't understand you." Well, what they were saying was not necessarily for you to understand. It has been my experience that this is the groaning the Spirit makes on my behalf. I will be able to catch a word or two, but the Spirit is talking, not me. (I know this sounds awful weird, but I can't explain it any other way). In my study of Scripture, I have not seen evidence that the gift of tongues involves the type of talk that I described in my last post. If unknowingly, I made it sound like I was making fun of the Spirit and His gifts, then I most humbly apologize. It was not my intention to portray that thought. I hold the gifts of God in the highest reguard. They are important, and they are incredible beyond meassure. But when the use of said gifts are laid out for specific reasons and or specified people groups, we should not deviate from that. I love you Gary, and feel bad that I offended you. I hope this helped clear things up a bit. If there is Scripture support for the other, (what I called babble due to lack of a thesaurus) I will gladly study it and adjust my view according to what Scripture says. ~your servant in Christ

Tell you what, Jake..... You live by obidience, I will live by faith and love. We can talk more when we see each other in glory..... I don't know if you saw my last post. I don't even know if you cared too much for it. It wouldn't bother me either way. My question for you is this...something I have never been able to answer by way of your train of thought. If we happen to sin....if we happen to disobey God, what happens? Are we allowed back in? If one sin will cut off salvation for us, and you say we are allowed back in through asking forgiveness, then what about Hebrews 6? It states that (whoever it is refering to) it is impossible to bring him back to repentence. If you say that we only get one shot, then none of us are going to heaven. 1 John says if any man says he is without sin, he is a lier (sp). If sin keeps us from heaven, ..........???????????????????? I hope you see where I am coming from. My last post said that obedience will flow naturally out of our love for God. I believe the greatest command given men was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, all your strength. And the second was to love your neighbor as yourself. Is not the whole of the Law and the Prophets summed up in these two verses? By the way, love is not an emotion that can change like the breeze. Love is not a verb. Love is a noun. Love is a mental, physical and total commitment to it's benefactor. God does not love us with an emotion. He is committed to loving us unconditionally. It is the sriving of the Christian to learn to love Him back in the same mannor. We need to love as a noun...a commitment. We need to love with every thing we have. God doesn't want robots.....He also doesn't want forced obedience. He wants....desires us to be obedient out of LOVE....not fear. We are to have a healthy fear of God because of His awsome power. We fear God out of reverence to the fact that He can divide soul and spirit. Not that He is holding it over our heads, mind you...But He has the power to do that. Dang....I lost my train of thought. But I did want to comment on your last few posts between you and godrulz. I admire and appreciate you shucking all lables of denomination and practices of worship. I do not consider myself to be anything other than Christian. I am not Baptist, Methodist, Pentacostal, Evangelical, Armenian (go figure!) or Calvanist. I walk by faith...not by sight. I am a Christian...a child of the living God. There are those that would consider me conservative....even hyper-conservative, but this doesn't bother me. I live by the Biblical standards set forth in Scripture. But I am worried, Jake, that in your quest to dodge all man-made labels of religion and doctrines of belief, you may have inadvertantly ctummbled upon yet another *denomination*...if you don't mind me using the only word I can think of right now. I think you called it the restoration movement. Admittedly, I haven't read through the links you gave, or done a search on the net for this movement, but my heart is strained slightly at the thought of this being yet another denomination...(I am sorry for using this word, I can't think of a better one that sounds reasonable and not cultish). I know you are not one to be lead haphazardly into things like this so I know you prayed and researched it for a long time, but dear brother, the evil one is soo deceptive....he can be soo crafty...I just worry for you is all.... And I may not have anything to worry about seeing as I didn't read the links provided, I just had to get that off my chest. I am only concerned. ~your brother in Christ

oh, a thought occured to me, nicholas..... Are you learned in the tactics for debate? I see that you and Douay use two tactics almost exclusively in your posts. One is called "begging the question" This refers to asking a question in such a way as to leave the responder without a viable answer. Any answer he gives will make him seem like a fool, and his stance/side of the debate/opinion will be easily refuted upon receipt of the answer...whatever it is. The second one is called "Straw-Man Tactics." This speaks of taking someones arguement, and twisting it in such a way as to make it easily knowcked down. You last post was the second one dealing with the Scripture references Dr. Luke gave. By refusing to accept Scripture plainly obvious, and casting your interpretation on it, you twisted his words and then had no problem refuting them as irrelevant...easily dismissed. This, my friend, does not boad well for you. If you stand on the side of Biblical Truth, then there should be no need for such slight of hand tactics as these. In the presentation of your arguement, there should be no room for anyone to counter you. Of course, since we don't all agree on the authority of Scripture, we have a long way to go before we find common ground to stand on. So until we can find something agreeable between the opposing sides, I am afraid this discussion will continue in much the same way as it has these last few days. If you are unwilling to see things in a different light (ie Scriptural), and since we don't agree with tradition being placed above the Word of God, I am sure you can see the problem created in trying to talk about our views. to say that we are nothing short of pharasees is spiteful, shameful, and not in keeping with the Spirit of Christ, which is ruled by Love. Unconditoinal, I might add. To label us as heretics is to close our ears to whatever you have to say. As you REQUIRE in your forums, (no flaming), we simply ask the same respect be shown here. You are not on home turf. You need to play by our rules now. And I am sure there is an equal rule for Worthy Boards...I just don't have it in front of me. farewell ~your servant in Christ P.S. Nicholas, one final question..... Are you willing to play by the rules?

is religion more important than God? Could religion become an idol? Is tradition more important than Scripture? Is Mary more important that Jesus? Is there any man infallible other than Christ our Lord? Has God bestowed infallibility upon any man alive.....ever? Are you willing to search these answers out relying only on Scripture? Are you willing to listen to us present our thoughts, or are you here only to bash us? (Something which is violently discouraged in your forum) Are you able to see us (trying to) reach out to you in love? Trying to find a common denominator, so we can gain headway in this talk? Are you going to ignore these honest questions? Will you answer them in your own words? Or will you use the words of a long dead priest, father, bishope(sp) or anything else?

Jake, I tend to agree with you, though I would say that this particular gift, though is not in as much use as it was in the NT times, or even during the formation of the church. Just my conservative background. Here is the verse you spoke of. GodsLove, I ask that you read this as it deals with your last post about tongues being for the church. ::EDIT:: to include Scripture reference 1 Corinthians 14:21-25 Biblical tongues is meant for unbelievers. Though even Biblical tongues, as Jake said in Acts refers to actual languages spoken by people. I think of of it this way: I am talking to a group of English speaking friends. All of a sudden, some Frech, German and a tribesman from Africa come walking by our group. They hear what I am saying as if I am speaking in their own language. I think I am talking in English, but the Gernam is hearing me speak Gernam, the Frenchman is hearing me speak French and the African is hearing me in his native "tongue." This is the essence of Biblical tongues. My understanding (limited?) as it is. There was a time when I spoke the babble commonly refered to as tongues. Shortly after I was saved, I started attending some Pentacostal Church where it was a common experience to hear someone talk like that. I always felt uncomfortable, and forever wondered if they knew how silly they sounded. I had no idea what they were saying. It sounded like grown people talking baby talk to me. This (again in my opinion) is not Biblical tongues. ~IMMHO ~~your servant in Christ

Well, I am not a woman, so I don't have too much to say I suppose, but if you are really searching this out, you would do well to read Proverbs 31. It deals exclusively with what a godly woman looks like. Though the proverb deals with a married woman, I believe there are tremendous principles to learn as a single woman in that proverb. My fiancee' would probably be able to answer you better, but she doesn't post on these things. (she is like me in that she gets frustrated and is prone to lose her temper when people post silly things like what has been going around lately!) I love her with all my strength (as I love Christ, and He loves the church). Though I have to admit that I don't always know the best, most loving way to show her. I suspect that is what growing together is all about though. I commend you in your quest to better reflect Christ in your life. I pray that He will bless your search. ~your servant in Christ

well said brother........ Very well said......

lol...thanks godrulz! I owe ya one!

well, since Scripture is God-Breathed, then anything from Genesis to Revelation is included. That is infallible. That is what is needed...and consequently, ALL that is needed for life and godliness. Read the thread on Catholisism(sp). ~a servant in Christ P.S. I never said I reject the Bible. I said I reject infallible teaching APART from the Bible. Try to not put words in my mouth please

I am sorry.... I don't have ANY time for people that teach with any type of aire of infallibility, cpmlicated definitions or not. Unless His name is God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, or the Holy Spirit. Sorry.....just wthe way it is. Romans 3:4 "let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"

Amen. This is what I have been trying to say ALL this time! *hoots and hollars for joy* This is my question too!! wonderful question, godrulz.... It is the trouble one gets into when they mix the two concepts, I think anyway... ---------------------------------------------------------- The law of righteousness is born out of love. It is the desire to do the will of God that is called obedience. It is utter devotion to the Lord that comples us to endure. For the Christian who wants to "live on the edge," and try to test the boundries of God (get away with as much as he can), I would have to ask that Christian to search his heart and see if he really has the Spirit in him...for if he did, then he would not want to live on the edge. Our works jusify us before men...and ourselves...and we need to look at them as a gauge in our growth/walk with Christ. If we don't have them...where is our heart? Genuine faith does not seek the boundries of God's will, tolerance, or ability to keep us "in the faith." Genuine faith seeks to hold on to the promises of Christ with all the strength in our feeble states as we have. In that sense, eternal life is secure, and unconditional. We will not always succeed in our endeavor to live a completely obedient life. In fact, we WILL fail more often than we would care to think about. Does this mean we have to keep asking Christ into our hearts and "re"-save us? No...it means we learn from our mistakes and "push on toward the upward call of Christ" (paraphrased). With the unconditional love of God as our backbone, the love in our hearts TOWARD the same needs to work to the goal of being unconditional as well. If we find we are not willing, or able to work for that goal, we need to check the devotion in our hearts...is it in the right place? Is it resting the the strength and joy and assurance of our Lord? Or is it resting in our ability to do or not to do good works? If it is the later...we may not have genuine faith...we may not be on of His sheep. We may get to heaven and hear those fatal words "Depart from Me, I never knew you!" If however, we find the opposite to be true, we need not fear our failures at "keeping the law," because our heart, and the Spirit in us will enevitably PUSH us that way. Even if we are unwilling to go, the Spirit will prick us and prod us until we have no choice BUT to obey. As godrulz said...genuine faith WILL involve obedience and good works. They are a natural result/effect of the love being poured out of us directed to the One who put the hope in us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness. I am getting tired now and losing my train of thought. I will continue when I am better able to think clearly! Good night all..and God bless!! ~your humble servant in Christ

I had heard that he was struck TWICE!!! In two different places!!

A warm welcome to you, Nicks Girl, from all of us at Worthy Boards! You will definately find some interesting discussions here about doctrine, life, and controversial issues! We all look forward to your input and growing with you in our Lord! ~your servant in Christ