Indentured Servant

I thank you for your response. You've touched on something interesting... I suppose that when one does see truth more clearly, it may make them either more sensitive to, or more aware of, things that are not truth. So, it may not be an increase in "wrong things," and of unscriptural doctrines that someone may be encountering- all of that has existed for centuries. Such a person may simply have a heightened awareness of how saturated the Christian narrative is with untruths. However, my experience (and disappointment) is primarily with those who pose as preachers and teachers of prophecy. One concern I have with these "experts" is their refusal to acknowledge the very Scripture passages that explain their out-of-context verse, (or word). Another concern is the using of prophetic verses as a segue to current events and popular culture. But, the thing that really concerns me is when these "expert teachers" choose to make up things that are obviously pure whack-a-doodle nonsense. I really have no difficulty with people who are at a less mature level than others. They're typically more willing to read Scripture to understand it better.

(sometimes I feel like I'm going to be the next on that list, haha.)

The English word for money is used in translating at least five different Greek words, depending on which translation is being used. The etymology of the word used in the verse I quoted literally means "silver." While it's easy to assume that means "money," the word was primarily used to describe the covering of columns of important buildings, places that represent nobility in that culture. Greed is greed, whether for money, power, prestige, or the largest portion of ice cream... Simplified, the context could allow us to reasonably understand this as nothing more intriguing than "coveting." I may be juggling semantics, but I see envy and spite are both depicted in this word translated as "envy." All said, my choice would be to translate it "spite." (Who knows, it may be best rendered as "envious spite.")

"Stars" is a metaphor for fallen angels...

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"91" Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day, nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday. A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked if you say, “The LORD is my refuge,” and you make the Most High your dwelling, no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation.”

Since Christianity has the unique truth of a risen Savior, I would submit Romans 10:9, "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." The word 'believe' has an underlying meaning of confidence and commitment to something, and is derived from the Greek word translated "faith." Hebrew 11:1 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." It is through faith that God counts us as "righteous." Good starting point!

If they didn't envy what he had, why want it so bad that it led to murder? They killed him for the purpose of claiming the inheritance for themselves. Greed, envy, hatred, killing out of spite are all involved in this. A word was chosen to label the emotion in question. The Greek word that appears in scripture has a layered meaning, and can be, and most often is, translated as 'envy.' I submitted that the word has a fuller meaning that was likely intended when using a word that is normally understood as 'envy.' I do see that word as having a richer meaning than just 'envy,' but since it cannot be encapsulated in a single English word, so translators selected the most common meaning of the word and based the translation on that more frequently used meaning. Is 'envy' the "best" translation? I don't think so, but it doesn't academically violate a word-for-word translation. On the other hand, a translation based on a fuller understanding of that word would likely result in the translator being accused of making a "personal translation." I've experienced this firsthand... I had posted a translation of a verse that included the Greek word for "in," but it was translated as "for." I displayed that verse with the actual meaning of that word, "in." A very sensitive, former JW accused me of attempting to deceive people with a personal translation and compared me to her arch nemesis, the Watchtower. That was 9 months ago, and my sister has completely shut me out of her life since then. (Perhaps she was envious of my knowledge of Greek language, leading her to spite me enough to get rid of me. 😳) While I do hold accurate translation in high regard, I decided to learn the language enough to know what the English words mean in the original language.

If your selection of verses are sufficient for you to believe as you do, I am in no place to challenge that, or ask you to consider another I should have backed off at the point you stated this. I can't, in good conscience, build on the foundation of another teaching. Please forgive the verbal sparring, I withdraw from further interaction on this thread due to my failure to make a positive connection and conversation. Thank you for your patience.

I don't take advantage of people, and I didn't detect a light-hearted nature. I attempted to connect on scriptural context, and you seemed very reluctant to read scripture, and then when you did, you stopped before you found what I was trying to show you. But it doesn't matter. Forgive my frustration. There were a few individuals previously that outright refused to consider reading Scripture because it might contradict their unscriptural biblical interpretation. I'm sorry, but it is extremely difficult to understand why these people, who claim to be a student of God's Word, would not immediately consider scripture to possibly get a clearer understanding of God's Word in context of statements they've made that have/had no scriptural foundation. I must be just an old Christian trying to communicate with people that belong to a new Christian culture... A culture that feels at liberty to find new ways to link biblical prophecy to topics that suit them. Using current events, social issues, and wild-hair agendas to define the "true" meaning of scriptural prophecies has become too commonplace. I feel like I'm offending people by asking them to at least read, and comment on, actual scripture. It's a Hebrew word that means "peace." It's common to use a greeting, or to end a conversation. "Shalom bro'" makes it casual, a little "light-hearted, " but that obviously didn't go over well... (It be used similarly to "Take it easy, man," or "Cool runnings, mon.")

"Love of money is the root of all evil." Envy begins here, and does certainly escalate. I am pondering what the state of mind is, and are there conscious thoughts, that lead an envious person/s to hate and decide to kill someone for their money. There has to be hatred to bridge the gap between greed and murder... because envy by itself doesn't justify murder, (psychologically). But hatred can be used to justify going so far as to murder. So, hate has to justify the killing, so that the killing can psychologically cover the greed, and envy. Maybe that's also why Jesus told us not to hate, because is is a trigger for murder. Oh well, there's my wondering mind at work. Haha.

That's why I only interpret scripture using what God has clearly stated through His Word. I don't follow a denomination, nor any doctrine that is clearly presented in Scripture.

All I was doing was commenting on my own experiences of hearing or reading, preachers making up odd interpretations of prophetic Scripture; and, that it seems to have become common on Christian social forums, and even in conversation, radio, etc. My observation is that people have become more dependent on learning the wrong interpretations of prophecy that they refuse to even read the scripture that provides the fuller context to what they may have misinterpreted. As well, I believe that people should take God at His Word and ask Him to help them with the proper interpretation of parables and prophetic imagery. But, I suppose there are who see me as odd because I don't link biblical prophecy to every current headline and conspiracy: nuclear bombs, the "chip," the LBGTQ movement, UFOs, politics, etc. What my only goal was to attempt to point people back to learning to interpret prophecy via God's Word and not the imagination of preachers (who should never attempt to interpret prophetic Scripture). But whenever I ever mention that scripture teaches one how to interpret biblical symbology, visions, etc., I get called a heretic, false teacher, or I get compared to notorious founders of cults... Just by some of the responses I gotten, I'm beginning to think of all that as the new face of Christianity... "Always believe what a preacher says, spread their personal prophetic interpretations, argue if anyone tries to show you scripture." Ha, I even had someone tell me that the Bible is about the plight and the militant return of (a specific race) and when I attempted to offer Scripture to help them understand they'd been taught incorrectly, I had to endure angry racial insults and had my life threatened, also. I guess I complained to the wrong group... Forgive me, all. Thank you for enduring my 'scriptural purity.'

I'm not counting out the word envy, but pointing out a deeper meaning of the greek word. As in the parable, when the Jewish leaders insisted he be crucified, they did it out of want of His inheritance... Envy. But, in that envy, spitefully had him crucified. 'preciate your response.

I started this thread, if anyone is disagreeing with others, it's not me. Is it laughable that your little "judge not that yet be judged" comment assumes I'm the one in the wrong. I agree people ask for wisdom, guidance, etc... no one has ever given any indication that God directly answered them... when people refuse to open their Bibles when I attempt to show them Scripture, I consider them to be unconcerned about anything but their personal doctrinal stance. Case in point: A nice gentleman says that Zechariah's vision of a scroll with specific writing on it, is actually an atomic bomb, I offered insight that a scroll,(regardless of its size), is a pronouncement of God that the prophet is required to deliver to His people. Every contextual information about this vision could not be explained in light of nuclear weaponry, so it was all ignored by this individual who insisted that all the prophet saw was a large cylinder that was going to track down bad people, kill them, and destroy their houses. This scroll, or nuclear bomb, was commissioned by God, and was being sent by God. A basket (woven, obviously), that contained a women called iniquity (symbol of the House of Judah) was being prepared to be taken to Babylonia but yet, he can only see references to nuclear power. I don't ignore Scripture. My sole priority is to point people to scripture, and not to what I personally believe. This topic is about how people pull verses out of context, assign some new or unusual meaning to it, and claim it's truth. Please read Zechariah 5 and tell me that it is about nothing but nuclear weaponry. As well, using one of my other examples, I've never asserted, (in a church and over the radio), that "Mystery Babylon" is a current city in the world that is the source of the LBGTQ movement. THAT'S what I'm talking about, people just making stuff up at the refusal to consider context of the passage. If those people who come up with these ideas are getting them from God, then scripture is rendered ineffective, as many things that people assert are asserting are opposite of what Scripture presents. I've judged no one, but I do have the Spirit given responsibility to evaluate things that are said and direct people back to God's Word, not to current events.

The Greek word for teaching/doctrine has more to do with "instruction" in practice rather than just sharing of knowledge. I don't interpret scripture. I read scripture, have questions, ask Him for guidance, understanding, insight, and wisdom. God interprets scripture. I used to attempt to interpret scripture via "teachings" from the pulpit, man-made doctrines, but it left me feeling distant from God. My comments regarding "doctrine" are solely in relation to stuff that men say in addition to, or in contrast to, God's sufficient word. True, there are some things that are more easily understood about ancient cultures and such, but for preachers, and theologians, to speak or draft an interpretation of scripture that was borne by their educational and self-appointed status as "expert," (or from their imagination) and not the actual words of Scripture and the Holy Spirit, is a sorry excuse for biblical teaching. I have taught more by just reading one of Paul's letters, without my, (or anyone else's), personal interpretation. God's word is, or should be, simple to read and speak, without trying to define it constantly.

Ok, so you're saying that you refuse to consult scripture (inspired by the Holy Spirit) and written by prophets commissioned by God, to maintain what you already believe. Gee, if you are satisfied with your own perspective without actually reading scripture, why read scripture at all? Please forgive me for making this statement... You are afraid of God's Word. I've never seen anyone so satisfied with their own statements that they would outright refuse to find scripture that might make them think... even a little. I found myself in a similar position many years ago... I am a writer and researcher. I was excited to write a book to support what is considered an essential doctrine. I planned it to be an apologetic exegesis that could not be refuted. I intentionally wrote it to be strictly scripture with no doctrinal or theological influence. I wanted it to be presented so that no one could accuse me of bias. I prepared it like a legal document, point/counterpoint analysis. I failed. Scripture, as I found, though thoroughly and honestly documented, did not support this "essential doctrine." I was affected emotionally, and mentally, by this- I lost friends, family, and acceptance into churches. I became a "heretic" for simply understanding scripture outside of the mandates of doctrinal rule. What resulted was three studies that actually refuted this errant doctrine, which became a draft for a new book. My publisher only wanted it due to its controversial perspective... (Not my style) The point is, I had to shift my focus to scripture, even scripture that spoke against what I'd learned in churches. It's a lonely world, to be one who sits with God, at the sacrifice of the respect of those who once called me "brother." I don't expect anyone else to make the same sacrifices to have the truth. I do want to thank you for respectfulness in your comments. It is not necessary for us to continue with this, as we individually have determined our source of knowledge, though I do value your interaction. Shalom, bro.

This is certainly a good example of something that people misunderstand... and misteach... Gosh, there are even people who believe they are eating the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. Where did this teaching originate? Nowhere else but the pulpit, theology, doctrine, religion without the Holy Spirit as teacher. Are we to accept what is said from the pulpit, as most do, or do consult personally with God for the true meaning of this? It is no man's call to reinterpret scripture by just fabricating from their imagination.

The Creator and the land He chose to call His home.

You found what you wanted to find, yet completely avoided what I was referring to. It's a short book, brother. Keep reading, then read it again. Read it until you see what I was pointing out. Ask God to show you, seriously. He offered for us to ask Him personally for wisdom, knowledge, insight. It's there. You have to trust scripture, and not stop when you're satisfied with that which agrees with you.

I do thank you for your response. I don't weigh Scripture against "settled essential doctrine." No man has the right to claim a doctrine to explain scripture... Scripture is my doctrine, (if it's expected for me to claim an essential doctrine.) My issue is with the many teachers that Christianity has heaped up for themselves to tickle their itching ears. Christianity, at least in western culture, prefers human teachers over the Holy Spirit. I can't comprehend this... It should be obvious, but there is so much focus on being told, "what you should believe," so many miss what they should really believe. I am not concerned about innocent error of an individual believer, nor of those falling short of the glory of God, .. I speak of the pulpit, which establishes the doctrinal narrative of its followers . I am issuing an indictment against those who have manipulated scripture with made-up stuff to impress others with a false persona of wisdom. Heresy is more common from the pulpit, and causes greater damage the message of God. Differences in non-essentials don't bother me... manipulation and willful ignorance- that's the problem. Thank you for responding.

When you said, "I disagree" in response to my overview of a specific scriptural text, I realized you hadn't even given any thoughts to actually reading scripture before telling me that I am wrong. I accept your right to make such a decision before consulting God/God's Word. I've only been studying scripture, specifically prophecy, for only 37 years. I, too, am born again- June 5, 1997 at the age of 23. For the first 25-30 years, I lived by what the pulpit and the theologians told me what the Bible said. It became a traffic jam of everybody who thinks they have the right-of-way... It wasn't until I abandoned the ever-changing theological narratives that I humbled myself enough to ask God Himself, to teach me, guide me through Scripture, interpret parables, visions, and dreams. Joel contains a mere 3 chapters... I regularly read the entirety of Isaiah 2-3 times a month; the other Prophets, more often. I hope you can manage to find it without the help of someone you disagree with....

Why, in claiming to know Scripture, do Christians use [man-made] doctrinal interpretations instead of God's Word? Is there no one that believes what Scripture actually says? I've seen prominent preachers make statements like: "Apostasy doesn't mean apostasy." (this appears in a book , so it's verifiable) [J.MacArthur] "Mystery (Babylon the great whore) is a real city that, if we knew it's exact location, we could go there today." [FBC Fernandina Beach, 2023]; "God is unsafe!" (Using a fictional fantasy story to prove God character) [R.Jeffress, FBC Dallas]; There seems to be a movement among theologically inept experts to make proclamations that nothing in scripture is what it says, but means something that isn't said... Despite [contextual] Scripture to the contrary. I've noticed an increased 'trickle down' to churches, individual followers, and I've seen a tremendous increase on social media, even here, on WCF. I've read many different posts whereas people, with different viewpoints, make such comments as, "numbers mean nothing in scripture," "Israel is no longer Israel," that the symbol of a scroll is really a nuclear bomb," "don't trust the ancient texts, trust English," and a plethora of odd statements... Why are so many drawn to redefining Scripture? This creates conflict among believers. It's not so much differing denominations, or doctrines, that make us different... We now push to make "new" interpretations of scripture, and demanding that others use only those scriptures that can be used to assert a specific belief. My personal observation shows me that people believe everything they hear from the pulpit, whether scriptural or not. Many have set aside scriptural references to use only to verify their narrative; never have I seem people who developed their under of God's Word in the way God has encouraged us to pursue... Which is, relying on the Holy Spirit to teach, to answer specific questions, and to provide wisdom to understand prophecy, parables, visions, etc. I have this little "testing of the spirits" that I practice... It is this, I quote Scripture without telling someone it is Scripture verbatim... Too many times, they respond by calling me a heretic, or "preaching a foreign doctrine." I'm just the last two days, I've had people tell me I was wrong about scripture... Why? Because I believe what Scripture says, above what someone's preacher taught them to believe. This breaks my heart...

Scripture, Scripture, Scripture. You dismiss scripture very quickly to preserve your narrative. This was not a promise to Israel; it is for those who are not Israel. God said He would allow in gentiles in order to make Israel jealous. Israel was never eliminated or changed. My statements are Scripture, not part of modern theology. You're fine with make your choice as to what to believe; He's made my choice for me, I rely on His words from Scripture, not what someone has told me His words say. You've actually helped my point that Christians today depend more on theological, doctrinal, and denominational interpretations for their understanding, than actually reading God's Word... (You haven't read Joel's prophet, have you?)

The word envy can also denote "spite," or "ill will." I find this parallels with the parable (book of Luke) about the hired hands killing the son of the owner of the vineyard, not because they mistook him for someone else, but they knew he was the heir, and they spitefully killed him because of that in an attempt to have his inheritance. "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours." The killing of Jesus and the parable are the same event.