Katie Rose Müller

@farouk Everyone has to make their own judgments on a manner, but my decisions certainly aren't based off what 75% of the population think or believe.

If you wouldn't take spray paint and go to the Temple in Jerusalem and graffiti it, why would make marks on your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit? I hate tattoos and faith-based ones seem even more vile to me because it's a slap in the face to God to take His temple, mar it, but claim you're doing it for Him. I have rather strong feelings about this one and would probably offend others, so . . . to put succinctly, I view this topic negatively and that's how I will conclude my post.

@farouk I don't find this helpful; can you explain how it's helpful regarding my original post? How does this correlate to what is sorrowful: being in the world, conception, or childbirth.

But I have seen even animals in hard labor; why would God punish female animals as well when this is against women, so Eve didn't impart this to cattle or cats or anything else according to the law of kinds. I'm still not convinced of the traditional view; I'd like for the grammar to be explained. Sorrow in conception would happen during sexual intercourse, not the childbirth. And there's little sorrow in conception.

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children" - Genesis 3:16 As I read that I wondered: Is conception tied to sorrow or is conception merely multiplied? Example: I will greatly multiply your sorrow [but] I will multiply your conception In pain you shall bring forth children Would the multiplication of conception be redemptive to the sorrow? Because conception and bringing forth children are two separate acts. One is pregnancy; one is full-term labor. John 16:21-22 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. So, the multiplication of children would be a joyful thing, even if labor is awful. See, I'm just not convinced at the traditional idea that Eve's punishment was painful labor and that all women suffer hard labor pains because of her. The more I think about, this view point makes God look like a sadist, which we all know He isn't. I don't see how a woman can not have labor pains because, well. . .biology. A lot of contractions and dilations are going on to give birth to an 8 or 9lb baby. I also believe the fall was necessary or at least foreseen, and so no matter what, sin or no sin, childbirth would have been and will continue to be painful. God states "I" claiming He will do a specific thing: "I will multiply your sorrow"; "I will multiple your conception"; but I does not seem to be connected to painful labor: this reads more like a statement. It doesn't read, "I will give you painful labor" it reads more like a heads up, childbirth is going to hurt. Additionally, though I didn't quote it I is not connected with man ruling over woman: this also reads like a statement. Seems to me that painful childbirth and the male-female hierarchy were already formerly established and are natural law, not punishments. Is the only real punishment (or consequence) here the fact that Eve now has multiplied sorrow? John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you. Jesus Christ is the 2nd Adam and the Church is, by implication therefore, the 2nd Eve. Before Christ's crucifixion He tells His disciples (the first-fruits of the church) that they have sorrow, and why, because Christ was departing the world to go to the Father. Likewise we see, not so much God departing Eve, but Eve departing God and being cast from Eden. A literary-poetic juxtaposition, so to speak. Either way, Eve was without God in the world, and the Church is waiting for Christ to return and because He is not in the world and we are not Eden, we have sorrow. So if God actively multiplied sorrow, the only thing God actively did in Genesis 3 was cast them from Eden and cut them off from God. You now have sorrow, BUT I will see you again God further then multiples Eve's conception: multiplying her ability to bear children and it is by Woman that Christ would come. Eve was cast from Eden, but through childbearing and the promise of a savior, God is saying, You will see me again. So, is the only punishment the multiplication of sorrow by being in the world and not a multiplication of sorrow by conception; childbirth; or martial hierarchy, just simply, not being in Eden. (And yes, I'm aware that by not being in Eden were are subjected to high-risk pregnancies, but death by childbearing doesn't seems like any more of a curse then death by disease, persecution, etc. which are not gender discriminatory.)

I never took to C.S. Lewis either. Supposedly Tolkien's work had Christian elements too, but it was subconscious at first and then upon rewrites, more consciously put forth (or so I read)

This sounds like the behavior of the Gnostics and to say God willing you will get food somehow, sounds like tempting God. To go off into a forest to be closer to God and then test Him to bring you food, is wrong. Be careful of this type of fanaticism.

I never personally cared for Harry Potter. I've seen like 5ish of the movies, but I couldn't sit through the 1st, 4th or 5th. The Prisoner of Azkaban was pretty good with the time travel but beyond that, I didn't like the series. My sister read the books as well as my dad and they thought the writing was poor as the story progressed. As far as whether they should be read by children, it seems like Harry Potter has become more of a cultural thing now and children will inevitably pick up the books if they're curious enough. Guiding them prior or during their reading of it is what's important. Everyone has free will and I don't believe in micromanaging people, especially children, but bringing awareness to what God says about witchcraft and witches will help them make decisions on whether to read the book or not or read it with discernment. God calls people at different times or not at all. If a child isn't called, forcing and micromanaging them will just push them further away from God. If a child is going to rebel they will do it over something their parents make a big deal about: look at kids who turn 21 and can finally drink and go head-over-heels drunk, versus parents who let kids take a sip of wine here or there, those kids, see that alcohol is no big deal. Would I read Harry Potter to my kids? No. But that's because I just don't like the story in general. If they begged me to read it to them because all their friends are reading it in the book-club, then yeah, I would, but I'd be making some pretty big critiques all the way through.

I didn't pay shipping on anything I order, and depending on what you're ordering, viewing it in person isn't an issue: clothing, bedding things like that are preferable for in store purchases, but cat toys and books are different. Just thought I'd have a nice conversation, don't know why you have to be negative and cynical.

Yeah, well, there is something called online shopping.

Anyone do Black Friday Shopping? Get any good deals? I got - ESV Hardcover, Spiral Bound Journaling Bible - MacArthur Bible Commentary (Single Volume) - McGee Bible Commentary 6 Vol. - Moody Bible Commentary (Single Volume) - Warren Wiersbe Bible Commentary 6 Vol. - Dead Sea Scroll Translation - Trees and Kings by the Bulletin for Biblical Research - Kitty Toys: squeak mouse; chirping bird; 10 pack play mice - Cat Condo - Washi Tape - Stickers - Transparent Sticky Notes I got to say, I am thrilled over the ESV journaling Bible. Has anyone ordered from the Daily Grace Co they have a black Friday sale, and I'd like to get some of their workbooks, but I'm on the fence about it. They tend to have deals a lot so I'm going to sit this sale out, but I'm looking at this product in particular. Anyone have this? If so, what's your opinion of it?

My Dad and I were actually discussing the other day, that from what we can tell about the resurrection of the dead, is that God gives people as much time as they need to repent and change into His spiritual likeness. Isaiah 65:20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. This seems to imply that in the resurrection, someone who is 100 years old is still considered a child. Looks like mankind will live a long time: Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. There are trees known to be over 1000 years old. So don't beat yourself up; or bring yourself down. God knows how hard it is for some people to overcome, especially if they're dealing with any form of mental illness, esp. if that mental illness has been brought on by trauma. As long as you're sincere that you want to walk with God, but are struggling, God's not going to write you off. He is going to give you time. Unlike what some Christians try to portray, now is not the only day of salvation. The resurrection is not an immediate judgement of eternal life or hellfire; judgement looks like it'll be at least 100 years, and up to even 1000. Use whatever avenues you need to, to get the help you need: medication, therapy just don't give up or let go. God has given us our whole lives to overcome, and may gives us another life in the resurrection to pick up where we left off. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. As long as you don't give up, neither will He. Being a Christian and overcoming the world is a hard thing. Perhaps also seek spiritual counsel, maybe there is a lot of demonic activity bringing you down? I was undergoing OCD/Intrusive thoughts as well and it took about 2 years to settle it out, but I know demons were antagonizing me at the same time because they perceived my weakness. So I had to tackle that issue as well. Have you also had a physical check-up, I was dealing with chronic anemia and I think the anemia, iron infusions and just stress of the illness was also exacerbating my symptoms. Maybe make sure that you don't have an underlying physical problem that's causing you to struggle. God knows we're physical and if a piece of us is worn down, it affects the whole system. Ask God to lead you to the right diagnoses; right medication; right therapy; the right tools to help you. He won't ignore you if you're sincere about the help, as I know you are sincere because if you weren't you wouldn't be here posting. You'll get through this. I'll be praying for you. And to add: when I was having it really hard, I actually wrote affirmations on myself (on my thigh) it was a hidden place that no one could see but me, but every time I saw it, I reminded myself that if we ask anything in His name He will do it. Maybe write an affirmation for yourself and read it every day, multiple times a day?

Nothing wrong with seeking help. I hope the medication and therapy helps! Perhaps God is pointing you in that direction?

I've got like 10+ different commentaries that are multi volume and I can confirm I haven't read them all cover to cover. That's over 100 books and I got them all starting March of this year. Lol. But I'm working on it hahaha

I think ours cost about $45 for 6 people. We're hosting ours tomorrow, but we're having Turkey sandwiches. 3, 16 inch Sub Rolls with buttered garlic, toasted, then mayo, oil, lettuce, tomato, onion, cheese, turkey and Lebanon Bologna. We'll get 12 Servings total, so that's like $3.75 per serving. We didn't feel like doing a whole big meal this year; we just didn't have the energy, but turkey subs is easy. My brother invited us to his place for Thanksgiving, but I didn't want to go anywhere this year.

This is indeed an issue. That's one reason why after I read something, if I am particularly taken with an idea, I discuss it with my family to get their insight on whether it's a valid view or just fanciful imaginings.

Agreed that deception and rebellion are linked, but there's conscious rebellion, knowing exactly what you're doing and going against it with intent. But Eve seems to have a naivety similar to a child being told no cookies before dinner or you'll get in trouble and then another child comes along and says, did Dad really say no cookies before dinner? You're not going to get in trouble, he just knows if you eat the cookies beforehand you'll figure out how to bake your own. Meanwhile there's crumbs on the other kids shirt, obvious he ate cookies and well, he didn't get in trouble and wouldn't it be great to know how to make cookies oneself?! It's shortsighted thinking. Yes rebellious and disobedient, but not in a malevolent way. When one is posed with two contradicting statements then one can second guess and even wonder if rules changed. To uneducated people, they can even be swayed by a persuasive argument and agree with the last thing they heard; ignoring the first thing they learned--look at academia for example. Eve's behavior seems more childlike, why would anyone lie to me? Eve speaking with the serpent reminds me more of a curious child that's inspecting and exploring the world around them. Matthew Poole makes an interesting point: The idea that Eve saw a serpent suddenly gain verbal abilities would definitely provoke curiosity and awe. Without the Holy Spirit, she wouldn't have had the conviction and control to say no, or to cast down high thoughts and wicked imaginations. All she saw was a pretty fruit and she could become wise. Wisdom is good. @AdHoc You make a good point about the serpent already being present in the garden and that Adam had failed to keep it out. He may not have known the serpent was a danger, but once it started speaking against the law of God, Adam should have driven the snake out but he didn't. To keep and dress the garden was to hedge about (as with thorns) and to cultivate. He was instated as guardian. Ironic that he was to hedge the garden with thorns just for thorns and briers to grow up and push him. out.

I have been angry with God. It took a bit to diagnose that because we all know it's wrong to be angry with Him. I have been through a lot of stuff medically with little relief and I was getting frustrated and angry. Had a lot of issues mentally for about a year or two until I finally confessed my sin. And I went before God and was just honest and said, "I know it's wrong, but I'm angry and frustrated with you." And I told Him I needed help; I couldn't do this anymore. I had to come to terms that sin from past generations had caused my problems, not Him. He wasn't just torturing me for the sake of torture. I was in the world and I would suffer in the world just like every one else. I wasn't immune from it, just because I was a Christian. The Church at Smyrna was told be faithful unto death, that they would suffer persecution. They didn't escape and neither can any of us. Once I confessed my true emotions, asked to help navigate through those emotions and came to terms that this was the world, things improved dramatically. You have to change the way you think of and towards God; you have to confess your own sins; you have to accept the reality of your situation that it is what is because we are in the world and not immune from the effects of sin. If someone is foolish and starts a fire and it catches the whole neighborhood on fire, the neighbors did nothing sinful or wrong, but suffered loss because of one person's incompetence. And we too, get burned, not because we did anything inherently bad, but because other people made mistakes. Forgiveness, confession, and retraining your thoughts on how you think of God is the only way to overcome.

Happy Thanksgiving ^.^ I read that America is this first country to designate a single day to Give Thanks to God. I have a lot to be thankful for this year. After years of struggling with chronic anemia and years of praying for healing: I think my recent surgery has finally given me a new start on life and I'm so grateful to God for being able to have that type of surgery, in a safe environment by skilled surgeons. This year is a bit different for us, we're not hosting nor having a whole turkey dinner. My brother and sister-in-law are coming tomorrow, and we're cheating and having Turkey Subs. How is every one else celebrating?

I appreciate this input because as a girl, I do the same thing. Ha ha. And have a Happy Thanksgiving as well!

@tatwo Paul is discussing the issue of deception when regarding Eve, not rebellion which would have been Adam's sin. So I think there is a stark difference between the two. Also I'm not saying that she was without transgression: to be blameless doesn't mean to be sinless. Merely that while she was being ruled by her husband, he had the opportunity to acquit her before the Lord, so judgment on her was pending so to speak. But once Adam took and ate, it was finalized. Also when it comes to the punishment of Eve, I think a lot of those were reminder statements. The woman was always to be ruled by the husband, but now that she had been deceived, God is clearly marking out that women are not to subvert or usurp their husbands. Even if Eve had pressured, or acted as a naggy wife, to get Adam to eat the fruit, God was also reminding Adam, that he was suppose to be the man and take authority. So Paul's perspective is fair, in that, where Adam listened to his wife, Paul is being the man God intended all men to be: true leaders, not swayed, nor bribed, nor tempted, or persuaded whether by a single word or by continuous pressure. And not to be deceived by other doctrines that come from outside the realm of God's word. But touching on Eve's punishment this was another thing which I had considered: did Eve die in childbirth? We see the serpent is to be crushed by the Messiah, i.e., he receives the death penalty for sin 3:15; Adam is said to labor and toil til he returns to the ground 3:19 emphasizing his own physical death that will await him. But to Eve we have in pain she'll bring forth children. Not remark on a death penalty, or her impending physical demise. If we take a literary or poetic approach, one would assume, all three of them would be sharing the same fate: their deaths being foretold. So was Eve's pain, hard labor unto death? She sort of just disappears in scripture after Chapter 5 (I think) If she didn't die in childbirth, then I think it is worth noting that God doesn't touch on her impending physical death, which might be because she was deceived.

NKJV Genesis 3:6-7 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. So my question is this: did Eve eat of the fruit first and then give to her husband who then ate, or did she take the fruit, give to her husband and they ate together? The reason I find this an important detail to uncover is that if Eve ate first and then gave to her husband who ate afterwards, Eve's eyes were not opened until Adam ate. As it's written by one man sin entered into the world Romans 5:12. I've been study Genesis 1-3 and have come to the conclusion that Adam was acting High Priest, and the test of the trees was on Adam not on Eve. If Eve's eyes weren't open until he ate, this would strengthen my theory. Adam could have, as husband and priest, made atonement for his wife and disavowed her transgression (Numbers 30:8) Exodus 32:21 And Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you that you have brought so great a sin upon them?” Even in Exodus, though the people asked for the Golden Calf (forbidden fruit, so to speak) the sin was put on Aaron first and foremost: what did these people do that you brought so great a sin upon them Likewise, Adam brought sin upon Eve and the whole world. Eve, though having eaten, was under his headship. Was she blameless of sin because of the deception; blameless while she had her husband as High Priest and Mediator? So, did they eat together or did Eve eat first,

Just saving this link for later to print or copy into my notebook Messianic Apocalypse - 4Q521 @Dennis1209 I did not know about that particular fragment in the Dead Sea Scrolls, so I appreciate you sharing that with me. I hope the book I ordered contains that, I'll be disappointed otherwise.

I like reading the older works as well, though never heard of Cornelius a Lapide before, I will most definitely be looking into his works. I'm not Catholic, but I do find the Catholic of old had far more understanding than present day. Seems Catholics are in a Dark Age compared to the 1500-1700s. Perhaps that's a false perspective on my end, but that's the general vibe I get to the modern Catholic Church. Ah, yes, New Cambridge. I too found it disrespectful. I have Exodus and Joshua only of New Cambridge and was not impressed, so never pursued the whole set. I like the Cambridge from the late 1800s early 1900s, but you can't get them in print anymore really. I printed off the whole thing for less than $150 with my own printer. A complete set on Ebay was $950 O.O Ink, paper, and binders cost way less. Thankfully I have an economical printer. Lol.

Interesting. Where in the Dead Sea Scrolls would it point to the Messiah raising the dead specifically? Ezekiel 37 and Isaiah 26:19 of course discuss a resurrection, but ties it to the Lord, which is the only technicality. We know the Messiah and the Lord are one, but I suppose 1st Century peoples wouldn't have necessarily made that connection?