Sir W Dakotah

I know exactly what you mean Gerioke. My heart is deeply grieved at the state of the western church. I rebuked JVI to his face for preaching that muslims were looking for Jesus to come back too. I couldn't believe my ears. He did repent after the rebuke, but my God what would make an evangelical christian minister preach such a gospel?

Your correct Sue That is a western teaching of pretrib rapture. I was always taught that in the church where I was saved some 46 years ago. I never questioned the doctrine, and thought that no one else did, until about 1975 when I was studying the book of Thessalonians. Suddenly the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. Over the years, I have tried to prove him wrong, because my flesh wants to believe we will not suffer in this life. However, so far nothing has been able to convince me that He is wrong..sad to say. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth..to teach the church. Lets pray the church are wise students.Instead of those who will not abide sound doctrine but have itching ears. Or as James said hearer's of the word and not doers who deceive themselves. Great deception has come into the church that I thought I would never live to see and it causes me great grief.

If we die to self we live to Christ, he despised the cross but looked to the glory that lay before him. It was not easy what he did, even he dreaded what was going to come upon him. However, look at the glory set before us. Life is a precious thing, yet eternity is even more precious. I always looked at it like this, I might save my physical body, for a while, but lose my soul for eternity. That brings it into sharper contrast. In the past the body of Christ have died for the word of God. The early christians in Rome, the reformers in the dark, and middle ages. And the christians in muslim lands throughout the muslim world. And now in our own country. I know a christian family personally who was martyred in New Jersey America for their faith and their witness. It is coming and we must decide where do we stand, do we stand for the Lord and save our lives for eternity. I am currently becoming involved with Voice of the Martyrs. People all over the world are suffering for the Word.

I see people are having fun with this topic and that's good. Yet it is a serious topic, taken with the day and the hour and the "state" of the body of Christ here, and the body of Christ in the rest of the world. More than 85% of the worlds population lives in Anti christian areas. They can tell you that suffering and persecution is very real. Yet with persecution and even death they overcome with the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. We must all ask Would we be as brave as they are, when our ideal of persecution is someone calling us a bad name, or thinking that we are weird? Things to think about especially in this day and hour. Scripture says there are many anti christ's already in the world. And it does say that before that day comes that the anti christ will be revealed to believers. You may know that very few of the churchs outside the west believe in a fly away rapture, they believe in scripture alone, which says I would not have you deceived. THAT day shall not come until the son of perdition be revealed. Thessalonians will also tell you that there is not going to be a revival and swelling numbers added to the church, but many falling away. That is subtraction not addition. We need to get back to what Scriptures say. Not what we surmise, or someone elses pet interpretation. IF the bible says it it is true if man says it it is false. Simple as that.

Democracy is not what the US is about, we are a democratic Republic. Democracy is anarchy at its best, and tyranny at its worse..

Your kidding right! Have you ever read John Foxes book of martyrs? It has spilled more blood of the saints in the past than any other religion, and will in the future when we all don't fall sway to the lure of Rome, in the ecumenical brotherhood.

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, my internet was down. Why so Blind, and Dad Ernie I want to thank you for your replies as you know I am a post trib rapturist too. This is helpful. Thank you.

I have been trying to find a case for rapture ever since I found that there is a first ressurrection, and a last trumpet. I have been reading through Revelation again and remembered this verse. What does this verse mean to you? Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Leonard I too am an old person, I have seen in my life time, 4 popes come to power. However, the signs of the times point to a closer day to the coming of our Lord.

Some say the next pope will be the false prophet of Revelation. I also pray that this pope was born again before he died. Eternity is a long time to be seperated from God. I did hear there were two Cardinals being considered, one was the bishop of Vienna, who recently made a tour of Israel, and said that Israels return to the land was ordained of God and fulfillment of prophecy. The other is a jewish man who was given to a catholic family by his parents during the war, to avoid persecution of the nazis. They loved him and gave him up for adoption to save him.

Islam itself speaks vile words about Jesus. First that allah has no son, so Jesus is not god according to them. Second that he did not die on the cross, so we are all lost and without hope in their eyes. If muslims are allowed to ruin this board as it has so many others. I will not come in here to post. Their vile "profit" makes me ill.

Leonard, Yes I understand about Revelation, I have heard Chuck Missler and others go off on the same thing Thank you for the scripture references Zechriah is one of my favorites I will go back and take a fresh look at that.

Dad Ernie, and Rollin Thunder, I want to thank you both for adding to this conversation. It is very helpful. Rollin Thunder didn't Jesus say that John the Baptist was that prophet Elijah? Does it actually say that Elijah will have to appear before his second coming too. The San Hedrin is looking for that prophet. If there is a prophet Elijah pointing to any other Messiah besides Jesus, then we know that it is a false Elijah. Thereby a false prophet.

Going back through the book of Revelations, and remembering some of mans teachings. Where does it say the Two witnesses will be anything but Two Witnesses? Where does it say that it will be Elijah, and Moses? Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah who was sent before him crying in the wilderness Repent for the Day of the Lord is at hand. I went back and reread Revelations, and I don't see anything in there about these being prophets who come back to earth. Are we adding to the book of Revelations?

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. John was not told to measure the whole temple area, that was part of the 1st and 2nd temple. The court of the gentiles was not measured in Revelations. The San Hedrin said that they believed the temple stood north of the dome of the rock. Meaning they could share the temple mount. And if the road map to peace is that treaty that will eventually be signed. You can find it in the book of Daniel. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate One interesting note here is that Daniel was writen in Aramaic, and (the many) here translates into todays Hebrew Rabin..I thought that was so interesting when Rabin was trying to negotiate peace.

Israel became a nation in one hour in May 1948. In 1967 they won back the city of Jerusalem during the 6th day war. Recently the San Hedrin met to decide where the temple stood, and to make plans to rebuild the temple to welcome the Messiah. Recent events, is that they have decided that the temple stood a little north of the dome of the rock (leaving out the court of the gentiles) just as it said in Revelations. Recent events is Israel giving back lands because of the "Road Map" which is a treaty with the World and Isreal. Sound familiar?

I would say the most important fulfillment was that Israel became a nation again. As Ezekiel said it would. After the Land was settled, that Jerusalem once again became its capitol again as the prophets said it would. And now with the renewed San Hedrin, the rebuilding of the temple will be the next step in prophecy.

I define revival as turning away from sin and to God. I don't believe that much of the revival going on in these countries are through prosperity doctrine. I see people daily laying down their lives and freedom for the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not a prosperity doctrine.

This is the underlying message of Revelations. The numbers are staggering and we have to try and reach these people before it is to late.

*sigh* These places have been having an underground revival now for about 5 (some date back even 10) years. God is prophesying what is already happening? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are right, these places have been having revival, while the United States if going into spiritual darkness. Should we sit back and watch without raising a call to repentance in our own country? Are the souls of Americans any less precious than the souls of the rest of this world? My call is for this country to come back to repentance judgment is coming.

We have hurricanes that have been the hurricanes of recorded history. And we know that God controls the weather, Jesus proved that when he calmed the storms, "even the winds and waves obey him". I don't know if it is so much a natural disaster that will happen, or if it is the man made disaster of nuclear exchange. When in the past there has been major wars in this country, there has also been major revivals. The great awakening before the revolutionary war. The laymans revival before the civil war, the Finney revivals, the tent and brush arbor revivals during the early part of the 20th century. People wept before the Lord in true repentance for sin. Where is those revivals today? We don't have that in what we are facing today! That is the call to righteousness that we all should be concerned about. Our society is sick and lost, millions "think" they are saved, yet have no personal holiness, because they think God has changed and now winks at sin. If we get in a major nuclear exchange, how many of those who die, will spend eternity seperated from God. There is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

Do we really lose???

Good job in explaining away the unexplainable, you have more patience than I do. I usually go by what the scriptures say, and will not belabor the point! I believe that God will open the eyes of the elect, so they won't be decieved. Jesus said many in that day will say lo here is Christ, or He is in the desert. Believe them not, for as the lightning shines even from the east to the west so shall the coming of the son of man be. What is he saying, to me he is saying there is no secret coming. Lightning cannot be hidden. Add to that the many other scriptures of the deception of his "secret" coming. Paul said I would not have you decieved brethern for that day shall not come until there be a falling away and the son of perdition is revealed. I could never understand why people could not just take what the bible says.