Fiosh

Exactly. Well, not "exactly." You still hold to the unbiblical premise that a person can still live in aberrant sin and still be a Christian; a position which in the course of this debate you have never been able to support with one passage from the Bible. The fact that you cannot turn to the Bible to find corroboration for your position is both glaringly conspiciuous but is the chief indicator of the weakness and indefensible nature of your assertions. Scriptural evidence has been provided to show God's mercy on those who sin in ignorance. You continue to create your own paradigm and debate within it. I already stated at least twice that, given your qualifiers, I agree with you. But that's not what I'm trying to defend. As long as you continue to view this with tunnel vision, we are having 2 different arguments. Hope you have a pleasant day, Shiloh. Peace, Fiosh The problem Fiosh is that you have a skewed view about what consitutes "ignorance." I have already demonstrated that once a person is faced with what the Scriptures say about homosexuality, they are no longer in ignorance. It doesn't matter how they "interpret" it, it is still not "ignorance," but rebellion. Again, the Bible does not agree with you and you have been heretofore, unable to produce any biblical defense for your position. Your position amounts to emotional tactics and does not reflect true Christian teaching given to us by the apostles or Jesus Himself. Shiloh, Yet again you resort to straw men and ad hominem attacks. You demand Scripture support for a stance that I do not take. I've already provided Scripture support for the mercy of God shown to those ignorant of His precepts. And, you insist on claiming that my position is "emotional", when I am using reason, not emotion to make my case. Sorry, buddy, you're grasping at straws now. Peace, Fiosh

Summary Question: Is it possible for an individual be a Christian while living as a practicing homosexual? Shiloh states (correct me if I'm wrong, Shiloh): Once an individual is confronted with the verses in Scripture that apply to homosexuality, he must repent of his sin and stop participating in his homosexual relationship, or he is not a Christian. If an individual has not ever heard these passages (and Shiloh contends if that is the case he must have been living under a rock) there's a scant possiblity he may still be able to claim to be a Christian. Shiloh contends that making a case that the verses do not apply to homosexuality but rather to some other form of immorality is not a matter of interpretation but is an attempt to discredit Scripture. ************************************************************** Fiosh states: An individual who is a practicing homosexual may still be a Christian if he is truly convinced that Scripture does not call it sin. She asserts that it is possible to interpret those verses that we understand pertain to homosexuality as referring rather to some other form of immorality, such as male prostitution. If an individual loves the Lord, truly wants to live a life acceptable to God, accepts the Bible as the inspired word of God, but is ignorant of the fact that Scripture calls homosexuality an abomination and sin, it is possible for that individual to be a Christian. God's mercy is boundless: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Exactly. Well, not "exactly." You still hold to the unbiblical premise that a person can still live in aberrant sin and still be a Christian; a position which in the course of this debate you have never been able to support with one passage from the Bible. The fact that you cannot turn to the Bible to find corroboration for your position is both glaringly conspiciuous but is the chief indicator of the weakness and indefensible nature of your assertions. Scriptural evidence has been provided to show God's mercy on those who sin in ignorance. You continue to create your own paradigm and debate within it. I already stated at least twice that, given your qualifiers, I agree with you. But that's not what I'm trying to defend. As long as you continue to view this with tunnel vision, we are having 2 different arguments. Hope you have a pleasant day, Shiloh. Peace, Fiosh

The pot has got to go. #1. It's illegal.....and it has a distinctive odor. All you need is for one of your neighbors to call the police. You'd all be on the street. #2. It's an awful example for the kids. In fact, it's corrupting the morals of a minor---that's illegal too. #3. That money would be better spent helping to put gas in your car or pay the electric bill. It makes no sense to say it's ok because they're on hard times. That would be like me saying, "I lost my job and have no place to stay. Gee, I think I'll go out and buy $30 worth of really expensive chocolate every week and sponge off my friend." Sit them down and have a talk. Use notes so you don't forget anything. Even give them a list in writing of things that need to change. Or if you really can't face them, write them a letter. You've more than met your obligations of Christian hospitality. Now it's time for some Christian tough love. Would you treat them the way they are treating you???? We're all behind you, DNW! Peace, Fiosh

this is just a thought................ is it possible that God allows us to live long enough to get as close to Him as we are ever going to get---and then we die? From God's perspective, for a believer to die is a glorious reward. It is only those of us who are left behind who grieve and mourn.

I totally agree with you, yod. Last month, I was spending the weekend with some friends and they wanted to go see it, so I went. I figured I may as well see at least one so I can discuss Potter intelligently. What a disappointment. It was sooooo boring. I actually fell asleep twice. My friend woke me up and told me I was snoring. It seemed like the same scene was playing over and over with different background and costumes---the good guys and bad guys wave their wands and throw each other across the room or whatever. There was very little meaningful or clever dialogue. And the movie didn't draw me in and/or make me care about the characters at all.

Exactly.

RE: "Every homosexual that I have talked to who ever spoke of the Bible, deined its inerrancy and inspiration. They deny that is nothing more than a archaic, outdated religious book written thousands of years ago, and while it does contain some good teachings to which they will assent, they categorically reject it as the word of God. They seek to discredit the Bible's authority in the area of homosexuality by denying its reliability entirely. " As you are basing your opinion on your own personal experience, it is easy to see why you think as you do. Once again, if this is the attitude of the homosexual you refer to, than I agree with you. I specifically stated that I am only referring to those who love the Lord and try to follow His word. I know several homosexuals who accept the Bible as the inspired word of God and strive to live Godly lives within a monogamous relationship. They just don't accept the interpretation of those verses that we see as stating that homosexuality is an abomination. As another poster pointed out, some will make a case that they refer to male prostitutes, etc. (the "Sigh" was unnecessary---just wanted to point that out to help you grow. )

Shiloh, so that I can clearly understand how you are using the terms: interpret and discredit, answer me this please--- If some Christians believe that Jesus forbade divorce except on the grounds of unchastity; and others allow divorce for other reasons---are they interpreting differently or is one discrediting? And if one denom takes Jesus literally when He says, "This is my Body"; and another denom takes Him figuratively, are they interpreting differently or is one denom discrediting? Thanks, Fiosh

It is clear to you and it is clear to me. But it is not clear to some. It is clear to them, which is why they have to fight what it says. If they didn't understand the explicit nature in which homosexuality was condemned they would not have to work so hard to discredit it. If you don't think they understand you are sorely misinformed. The Bible is written in 5th grade English. It is not at all ambiguous. So you are asserting that people do not disagree on the interpretaion of Scripture? You're kidding, right? No, what I am asserting is that their method of discrediting the Bible does not fall within the definition of "interpretation." Interpretation is what we use when we want to understand the intent of the author. Attempting to discredit the author is not "interperetation." That is your perspective. No it is not my perspective. Words mean things Fiosh. Interpretation is not the same things as discrediting. For you to hold up their rejection of the Word of God as being a valid form of "intrepretation" proves that you do not have a good grasp on the issue.(haughty) You are simply in a state of denial. (haughty) Nope, I'm not in denial. Just trying to understand it from another's point of view without demonizing. Never said it was "valid". But if a man feels an attraction for another man, and figures God made him that way, and if he loves the Lord and believed His word, I would imagine he'd look to the Bible for answers. And I also imagine he'd find it difficult to agree with the interpretation that his inclinations were called an abomination. So I suppose he'd try to make sense of it and try to understand what those verses could possibly mean. It's not really all that hard to understand. People are people.

Tough Talking Tony could run for office here in the U.S....and win! He is quite popular here. And handsome too! Not to mention that great accent!

Don't give up on living. I was in your position of wanting to die and had a plan but God stopped me in an amazing way just keep your heart and mind open to the small miracles there each day. like the people who care here from around the world. I was told this (by a complete stranger who did not know what I was thinking) "God has a plan for you, your life is longer than this moment, don't do anything" Remember that your life is important to all in heaven and earth walk in the moment in the knowledge there is love for all and ask Jesus to come and remove the lie that has been put in your heart and begin to live again. Welcome to Worthy, oamarudave. Wonderful encouragement! (btw...in case you haven't read thru the thread, Afal is going away for a few days, so if she doesn't respond...)

It is clear to you and it is clear to me. But it is not clear to some. It is clear to them, which is why they have to fight what it says. If they didn't understand the explicit nature in which homosexuality was condemned they would not have to work so hard to discredit it. If you don't think they understand you are sorely misinformed. The Bible is written in 5th grade English. It is not at all ambiguous. So you are asserting that people do not disagree on the interpretaion of Scripture? You're kidding, right? No, what I am asserting is that their method of discrediting the Bible does not fall within the definition of "interpretation." Interpretation is what we use when we want to understand the intent of the author. Attempting to discredit the author is not "interperetation." That is your perspective.

It is clear to you and it is clear to me. But it is not clear to some. It is clear to them, which is why they have to fight what it says. If they didn't understand the explicit nature in which homosexuality was condemned they would not have to work so hard to discredit it. If you don't think they understand you are sorely misinformed. The Bible is written in 5th grade English. It is not at all ambiguous. So you are asserting that people do not disagree on the interpretaion of Scripture? You're kidding, right?

I know that without a moments hesitation my husband would lay down his life for me. I appreciate friends who are honest and will tell me the truth....even when it's painful to hear.

I am a fan of Paul. Whatever is not from faith is sin. Apparently Kierkegaard was too.

RE: " the only thing not of sin that we do is faith" sw, are you a Kierkegaard fan? In A Sickness Unto Death he writes: "the opposite of sin is faith". Just curious.

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail. The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?" Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life? Hello, Just thought i would add my 2 cents for what it's worth, hope you don't mind? When I was saved by Christ I became perfect in Christs righteousness by faith, when I sin(lack of faith in truth) i'm not less perfect I just i'm not in communion with Christ(growing by faith in maturing, or being more like Him) so i must confess and repent to get back in communion with Him(thats when i'm maturing by faith, co-crucifiction,co-burial-co-death,co-resurrection, learning to live the life of Christ by faith in dependence upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten and inable me to do so. Your 2 cents are always welcome, Eddie B. And, it was worth much more than 2 pennies.

I'll miss you, Afal. We'll be waiting to hear all about your trip.

You are again misunderstanding what I am saying. We will struggle with our sin nature until the day we die. However, I do tire of people saying such as, "I sin all the time," yet when asked how they sinned, they are clueless. So, how do you know you have sinned? So, if you don't know - ask the Holy Spirit to reveal your sin to you. "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting." (Psalm 139:23,24) That being said, here is another verse I'd like to hear your understanding of: Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV) Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV) Therefore you re to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NASB) (Yup, every translation I have looked at, and I did check others, uses the word "perfect".) I was thinking of that very verse, Nebula. Was Jesus commanding the impossible? Also, how can one commit a sin and not know it? Sin is by definition a "deliberate" act. Sorry Fiosh, but sin is more than just deliberate acts. Once again that is the heresy of Pelagianism in my view. The reality is the only thing not of sin that we do is faith. All of our acts are tainted with sin in one way or another because in spite of our justification we retain the old sinner in our nature and will do so until either we die or Jesus returns. Striving against sin is one thing, but saying perfection is possible by acts of morality is entirely different. sw I see what you're saying, sw. All of my "righteousness is like filthy rags" before a pure and holy God. And I am not trying to even hint that I could achieve perfection by "acts of morality". We agree that our only hope of righteousness is in Christ. I'm referring to personal sin...sins of commisson and omission. In order for me to commit sin--to be held accountable, it must be a deliberate act. It is possible to commit acts that are sinful w/o knowledge of it, but God does not hold us accountable for true ignorance that is out of our control.

You are again misunderstanding what I am saying. We will struggle with our sin nature until the day we die. However, I do tire of people saying such as, "I sin all the time," yet when asked how they sinned, they are clueless. So, how do you know you have sinned? So, if you don't know - ask the Holy Spirit to reveal your sin to you. "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting." (Psalm 139:23,24) That being said, here is another verse I'd like to hear your understanding of: Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV) Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV) Therefore you re to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NASB) (Yup, every translation I have looked at, and I did check others, uses the word "perfect".) I was thinking of that very verse, Nebula. Was Jesus commanding the impossible? Also, how can one commit a sin and not know it? Sin is by definition a "deliberate" act.

It is clear to you and it is clear to me. But it is not clear to some.

fyi... Here's two of my earlier posts: Yes, anyone living in open rebellion to God's word cannot be filled with the Spirit. But if we are weak, or confused, or led astray........God is full of gentleness and compassion. There are also plenty of church leaders who condone sin, and deny the Scripture teachings, who cannot call themselves Christian.

If you want to add these qualifiers to your argument: They say... * I don't care what the Bible says about homosexuality * I don't believe a lot of what the Bible says anyway * It was just written by a bunch of men anyway * no one is certain about how much of it is true anyway * They try to make King David and Johnathan into homosexual lovers. * They believe that Jesus might have had homosexual tendencies * They challenge the inspiration and innerrancy of the Bible and its credibility in a host of other areas as well. Then we are having a different debate, and I would tend to agree that an individual with this attitude is not surrendered to Christ. Well everyone of the supposed gay "Chrsitians" that has ever tried to justify their homosexuality to me, makes those or similar arguments, and no it does not mean we are having a different debate. Those are not qualifiers. It is what a number of these so-called gay "Christians" beleive. Maybe not all of them, as I am not qualified to make that assessment, but my town has a substantial gay community and I have had to work with gay people in nearly every job I have had. You were the one who brought up their interpretation of the Bible and the way they try to skirt around and ratioanlize away the Scriptures judgment of their lifestyle. All I did was put the maginfying glass up to their argument to indicate exactly what this "rationalization" actually entails. I understand that this is your experience with the homosexual individuals you know. It is not mine. I specifically referred to homosexuals who do not interpret the Bible to prohibit homosexual relationships. I said nothing about rejecting the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture....or that say Jesus was homosexual....or...etc. Those are your qualifiers. So, we do have a different debate. And, given all these qualifiers I would tend to agree with you. Now I can see why you feel as you do, given the type of persons you come in contact with. Again, these are not the people I refer to. I specifically stated at the beginning, that I refer to those who truly love the Lord. God bless, Fiosh