Jedi4Yahweh

All the covenants are extentions of the former covenant. I agree some of the covenants you mentined are redundant. The mosaic and davidic covenant are essential the coveant given to Abraham and is discendants. So you see the main covenants like this: 1. Adam covenant (promised dominion over God's creation) 2. Noah covenant (promised to never to distroy the world by flood) 3. Abraham covenant (promised his desendants would inherit to the land of Israel and his seed would become blessing to all the nations.) a. Moses covenant is God fulfilling the Abraham promise. 4. David covenant (promised one of his discendants would bring about an eternal Kingdom/this is still falls under the Abraham covenant) 7. New covenant (eternal covenant/eternal life/eternal kingdom) This is essential the fullfilling of all the covenants.

Technically Christianity is a religion: Christianity is a system of beleifs, doctrines based on spirital teachings about God and that is the very definition of a religion. No one can deny that Christianity has doctrines, beleifs, values and teachings about God. A better way to to say it is that Christianity is the true religion and all other religions are false religions. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. [Jas 1:26-27 KJV]

Its sad that people get trapped into false doctrine and if they question their teachings they are labeled as committing an unforgiveable sin aka heretic. This is how most cults and false religions operate. Messiah warned us repeatedly about false prophets and teaches that appear as sheep but are actually wolves. Also, Messiah warned us about the leaven of the Pharisees which are the doctrines and teachings of men that nullify the commandments of God.

Yes, last time I had a name changed by the admin. I lost most of my post and membership ranking. It was like starting over for the most part.

Ancient Hebrew did not include the "J" or "W" sound in their vocabulary. Yet, we see many today trying to add these letters to God's Hebrew (YHVH) name for example: JaHoVaH or YaHWeH. God's Hebrew name given to Moses is somewhat of mystery but we can be sure that his name does not contain "J" or "W". Many English translations substitute "J" for the letter "Y" and "W" for the letter "V" in Hebrew. A more accurate translation of YHVH would be YaHoVaH. I am ignorant and guilty of this myself. See my handle. I wish I could change my handle.

Ever so often I come across articles and commentaries about how Joseph most likely had a previous marriage with other children prior to Mary. I have always wondered where they get that from. After doing some research, I found no scripture or historical evidence, that supports this claim. Also, I found out where this teaching primarily comes from. This was and still is a doctrine taught in Catholic churches. They teach that Jesus was the only child of Mary even though scriptures says otherwise. Scriptures tell of Jesus having several brother and sister siblings. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary is a type of divinity (Goddess/Mother of Heaven) therefore any children born from Mary would have a divine nature as well, like Jesus. Since none of her other children were divine they claim they were from a pervious marriage by Joseph. They teach that Mary remains a virgin (perpetually) meaning she never had sex while on earth, hence no other children. The fallacy with this teaching is that they have elevated Mary as a divinity above Jesus and therefore meaning the source of Jesus's divinity comes from Mary. Have any of you ran into people claiming this? It was not too long ago on this forum I was debating a catholic who was stating this.

I think the story of Ruth is such an awe-inspiring story of God's Mercy. God always had a plan to include the nations into his covenant. Ruth a formerly uncovenanted gentile become the grandmother of both King David and King Yahshua and partaker of the promises for Israel.

No it says and THEM that worshipped his image. This is referring to people. Rev 19:20 KJV - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Your saying there is no bridge. Jesus makes this connection as well, that people will be going to the same place that was intended and prepared for the devil and his angels. Mat 25:41, 46 KJV - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. If the fire and punishment is just temporary being that at some point you will cease to exit then why did Jesus bother to mention that its everlasting punishment and eternal fire? Why not just say they were punished and cast in a fire and consumed.

No, the second death is not annihilation. Check out the following scriptures: Rev 19:20 KJV - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 20:10 KJV - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Lake of Fire is not annihilation but eternal torment. Says they were cast alive into the lake of fire to be tormented forever.

Rev 14:11 KJV - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Mat 22:13 KJV - Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luk 16:24-25 KJV - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. This sounds like eternal torment. How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth, thirst, no rest day or night if your annihilated???

I agree in part. The first 5 books of the bible (the Torah) is the foundation for all other biblical inspired writings. With that said, do you believe the KJV and Geneva bible were fallible and errant because they both contained the apocrypha? The KJV and Geneva bible were the bibles that our reformation fathers used which contained the apocrypha. It was around the early 1800 when modern church leaders decided to remove the apocrypha from the KJV and other bibles. Did the bible become inspired, inerrant, and infallible after the 1800's? Martin Luther wanted Daniel, James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelations, and parts of Peters and Johns writings removed from the bible as well, because it did not fit his theology. Who decides what is inspired and infallible or not? The Septuagint is the oldest known biblical cannon that was canonized many centuries before Christ and contained the apocrypha and was used and quoted from by the Apostles. Reminds me of a quote from Einstein: If facts fit don't your theory, change the facts - Einstein. In Martin Luther's case, if scriptures don't fit your theology change the scriptures.

I was aware of this passage. I find it odd that some consider this magical arts when we read stories in our bible about how Moses turned a staff into a snake, or struck a rock to make water come from it. Or how Elisha told a man to dip himself seven time in dirty river to cleans himself from lepersy OR how he laid himself on top of a dead man to raise back to life Or how Paul used pieces of clothing to heal the sick Or Jesus used spit in the eyes of blind man to make him see OR how Jesus turned water into wine Or how Jesus told Peter to catch fish and to find money inside to pay taxes. Just because something seems odd, strange, or hard to believe does not mean its "magical arts" and not from God. I do not see how that contradicts scriptures. Peter also said, 1Pe 4:7-9 NLT - The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers. Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins. Cheerfully share your home with those who need a meal or a place to stay. Peter said showing love to others such as sharing your home and food with others covers a multitude sins. As I said earlier the Book of Maccabees was not considered a prophetic writing or scripture but more of historical book of Jewish revolt against Rome oppression This is not referring to Purgatory or suffering in purgatory. This is speaking about just/righteous people who suffered anguish in life in hopes for immortality in the life to come. This is reading things into that are not there. Act 14:22 NLT - where they strengthened the believers. They encouraged them to continue in the faith, reminding them that we must suffer many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God. I could see how this may not line up with what Jesus said, but if you read that chapter in context it fully explains that our alms giving and charity should focus not on the wicked but on our suffering brothers and sisters. Was Paul not following the Jesus commandment when he said: 2Th 3:10-11 KJV - For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Sounds similar to what Paul said: 1Ti 2:9-15 KJV - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Again similar to what Jerimiah said that God knew him BEFORE he was in the womb. Jer 1:5 NKJV - "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." Like I said previously the Apocrypha was written before Maccabees and spans all the way back to Jeremiah before the destruction of the first temple. Most of all the biblical prophets came after Jeremiah. Was not John the Baptist a Prophet who came before Yahshua/Jesus??? Mat 21:26 NKJV - "But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet." Luk 7:28 NKJV - "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." Luk 16:16 NKJV - "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Hmmm...Where does the Apocrypha state this? The Apocrypha was not written at any specific point in time. It is a collection of biblically authors over a long span of time going all the way back to the Prophet Jeremiah before the destruction of the first temple up until the Maccabees. If you include the Books of Enoch it goes back before the flood. There were many prophets after Jeremiah in fact the majority of writing prophets happened after Jeremiah. They do not oppose the bible but it may oppose your church doctrine. The book of James teaches faith and works. Jesus taught faith and works. John taught faith and works. Just because you don't agree with it does not make it unbiblical. Did you know the Martin Luther wanted the book of James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation and some of Peter's and John's writings removed from the bible as well? Where does it specifically say that giving alms saves??? Jesus and all the apostles taught about giving as part of our walk with God. Giving is a fruit of being saved and walking with God, but it does not save you and no where in the apocrypha does it say giving will save you. Where specifically does it says this? The bible does state that God knew us before we were born? God said he knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. Was Jeremiah a false prophet? Jer 1:5 NKJV - "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." This was a catholic doctrine and found no where in the apocrypha??? Again, this was a doctrine in the catholic church and found no where in the apocrypha. Where??? Again the Apocrypha spans all the way to Jeremiah and there were many prophets after Jeremiah. Majority of the apocrypha writing happened before the 400 years of silence except the Maccabees which is not a prophetic book but a history book about teh Jewish Roman revolt. Where??? I have never found any of these stated in the apocrypha. However regarding preexisting matter: Gen 1:1-2 states that waters which is matter was preexisting before creation. Gen 1:1-2 NKJV - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. This was before day 1 of creation.

Yes, the Book of Enoch was and is in the Septuagint. Jude quotes direct from it.

Incorrect. They were a part of most reputable bibles up until the early 1800's. They were considered inspired scriptures up until the 1800's when they were removed. They were apart of the KJV and Geneva bible that most of the reformation church used. Do your research. Early church fathers quoted from them to include other books such as the Book of Enoch. Those that were for the removal of the scriptures claimed they were catholic forged documents that was until they were found in the Dead Sea scrolls intact and word for word long before the Catholic Church. Jews considered these inspired scriptures and was apart of their canon of scriptures (Septuagint) which Jesus and the disciples used.

Most of the time the word hell in the OT is referred to as 'sheol' that had a few different meanings. 1. Underworld of the dead/Netherworld. Place where departed souls go to after death, both the righteous and unrighteous. The abode of the dead located down inside the earth. 2. Place of Punishment/Hell/Torment/Fire for the unrighteous/wicked/sinners 3. Grave In either case sheol/hell is place where the dead souls go after leaving their bodies. Most non-Christian Jews in Judaism believed in an afterlife and believed the soul is immortal and will be resurrected in the resurrection of the Messiah, which they say is still to come as spoken of in OT scriptures (Dan. 12:2; Isa. 26:19; Ezek. 37:1). They believe that when you die that the soul goes to a place called Sheol also spoken of in the bible OT which is divided into two places one for the righteous and one for the wicked called Hades (Jewish Virtual Libary, n.d.). Yahshua/Jesus referred to this place in the story about Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31). The book of Enoch (Apocrypha) Chapter 22 explains this concept as well. Abraham’s bosom is the place of the righteous dead. A place of comfort and peace. The other side was place for the wicked. A place of torment, punishment, and fire. Both places separated from each other so that one could not cross over. It is true the modern-day Old Testament cannon is sort of vague when talking about Hell or the afterlife and only refers to it in a few places, but the OT cannon they used in their day had other books that are missing from our modern OT cannon. Must Jews after the Second Temple and in Yahshua’s days relied on the Septuigent/LXX which add 15 additional books and in these books Hell is spoken about more often and more clearly. These additional books were found in the KJV 1611 bible and the Geneva Bible which many of the reformation church relied upon until the 1800’s. These removed books are now known as the apocrypha (1 & 2 Ezra, 1 & 2 Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Susanna, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Prayer of Manasseh, Wisdom of Solomon, Prayer of Azariah, Letter of Jeremiah Additions to Ester, 1 & 2 Maccabees, etc). Jews also used other books such as the Book of Enoch, Book of Jasher, and the Book of Jubilees. Most of these books were found in the dead sea scrolls that the Jews had hide in caves during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and the spoke about Hell and the place of judgment and punishment often. Yahshua did not come teaching a new doctrine about Hell. He was preaching to them about concepts they already knew. The Jews were fully aware about Hell and the Afterlife unless you were a Sadducee that denied the afterlife. Here are some references of "Hell" in these removed Old Testament books. OT Apocrypha Scriptures: 2 Baruch 30:2-5 For they know that the time has come of which it is said, that it is the consummation of the times. But the souls of the wicked, when they behold all these things, shall then waste away the more. For they shall know that their torment has come and their perdition has arrived.' 2 Baruch 44:12,15 And the hour comes which abides forever. And the new world (comes) which does not turn to corruption those who depart to its blessedness And has no mercy on those who depart to torment, And leads not to perdition those who live in it...For to them shall be given the world to come, But the dwelling of the rest who are many shall be in the fire.' 2 Baruch 51: 1-6 And it shall come to pass, when that appointed day has gone by, that then shall the aspect of those who are condemned be afterwards changed, and the glory of those who are justified. 2 For the aspect of those who now act wickedly shall become worse than it is, as they shall suffer torment...For they shall first behold and afterwards depart to be tormented. 2 Baruch 54: 14 And justly do they perish who have not loved Your law, And the torment of judgment shall await those who have not submitted themselves to Your power. 2 Baruch 59:2 For at that time the lamp of the eternal law shone on all those who sat in darkness, which announced to them that believe the promise of their reward, and to them that deny, the torment of fire which is reserved for them. ---- 2 Ezra 9:9-13 Then shall they be in pitiful case, which now have abused my ways: and they that have cast them away despitefully shall dwell in torments. For such as in their life have received benefits, and have not known me; And they that have loathed my law, while they had yet liberty, and, when as yet place of repentance was open unto them, understood not, but despised it; The same must know it after death by pain. 2 Ezra 4:8 Peradventure thou wouldest say unto me, I never went down into the deep, nor as yet into hell, neither did I ever climb up into heaven. ........ 1 Enoch 10: 12-16 ...till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore. 1 Enoch 22: 8-14 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places[in the earth]: 'Why is one separated from the other?' And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse forever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them forever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement, nor shall they be raised from thence.' Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth forever.' 1 Enoch 40:9-10 And I measured out the whole earth, its mountains, and all hills, fields, trees, stones, rivers, all existing things I wrote down, the height from earth to the seventh heaven, and downwards to the very lowest hell, and the judgment-place, and the very great, open and weeping hell. And I saw how the prisoners are in pain, expecting the limitless judgment. 1 Enoch 46:6 ...And darkness shall be their dwelling ,And worms shall be their bed, And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,Because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. 1 Enoch 51:1And in those days shall the earth also give back that which has been entrusted to it,And Sheol also shall give back that which it has received,And hell shall give back that which it owes. 1 Enoch 102:3-11 And all the angels shall execute their command And shall seek to hide themselves from the presence of the Great Glory, And the children of earth shall tremble and quake;And ye sinners shall be cursed for ever, And ye shall have no peace. Fear ye not, ye souls of the righteous, And be hopeful ye that have died in righteousness. And grieve not if your soul into Sheol has descended in grief, And that in your life your body fared not according to your goodness,But wait for the day of the judgement of sinners And for the day of cursing and chastisement. And yet when ye die the sinners speak over you:" As we die, so die the righteous, And what benefit do they reap for their deeds ? Behold, even as we, so do they die in grief and darkness,And what have they more than we ?From henceforth we are equal. And what will they receive and what will they see for ever ?Behold, they too have died,And henceforth for ever shall they see no light." I tell you, ye sinners, ye are content to eat and drink, and rob and sin, and strip men naked, and acquire wealth and see good days. Have ye seen the righteous how their end falls out, that no manner of violence is found in them till their death ? " Nevertheless they perished and became as though they had not been, and their spirits descended into Sheol in tribulation." 1 Enoch 103: 5-8 Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died, If ye die in the wealth of your sins, And those who are like you say regarding you: Blessed are the sinners: they have seen all their days. And how they have died in prosperity and in wealth, And have not seen tribulation or murder in their life;And they have died in honour, And judgement has not been executed on them during their life." Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol. And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation. And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter; And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world. Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace. 1 Enoch 104:5 Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal judgement --------- Sirach 7:16-17 Humble your soul greatly, because the punishment of the impious is fire and worm. Sirach 21:9-10 A gathering of the lawless is bundled flax and a flame of fire is their end. A way of sinners is leveled out of stones, and at its end is a hole of Hades. Sirach 28: A wicked death is its death and Hades is more advantageous than it. Sirach 41: 4 This is the judgement from the Lord for all flesh and why should you reject the good pleasure of the Most High? Whether ten or a hundred or a thousand years in Hades there is no reproving of life. Sirach 14:16 Give and take and decieve your soul, because in Hades there is not seeking of luxury. ----------- Ps 153: 2 Who rescued the soul of his chosen from the hands of death, and delivered his holy one from destruction: and saved me from the nets of the Netherworld,and my soul from the pit which cannot be fathomed. Ps 155: 8 I was near death because of my sins, and my iniquities had sold me to the Netherworld; References: Jewish Virtual Library(n.d.) AfterLife in Judaism : https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/afterlife

Will God's Kingdom be physically here on Earth? Do people go to Heaven after they die? After the resurrection will people go to Heaven or remain here on Earth? From: https://www.truegospel.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Basics.tour/ID/4/Where-Will-Kingdom-Be-Established.htm First, notice how the Bible completely refutes the notion of "going to heaven" after death. Peter tells the crowd on the day of Pentecost, "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.. .. For David did not ascend into the heavens" (Acts 2:29, 34). This "man after God's own heart" is not in heaven, but still in the grave! Our Savior confirms this in John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." Many verses refer to the dead as "sleeping," and this analogy comes from the fact that when a person sleeps deeply, many unaccounted hours may pass. Likewise, during the time we are dead, we will have no consciousness, no awareness. Many years may elapse between the time that we die and our resurrection, but we will not be aware of the passing of time. It will be as if we blinked, and then are alive again. Thus, from the point of view of consciousness, it will seem like we have gone from the physical body to the spiritual immediately, despite perhaps many years separating death and resurrection. Paul teaches in I Corinthians 15 that the resurrection does not occur until Yahshua Messiah returns - at which point the "dead in Messiah" will be resurrected with immortal uncorruptible bodies, and the living saints will be changed to immortal uncorruptible "in the twinkling of an eye" (verse 52). If the saints were to go to heaven automatically after death, what need would there be for a resurrection? In verse 53, Paul even says that the "mortal" will have to "put on immortality," meaning we do not now have it (see also Romans 2:7). Only God has immortality now (I Timothy 6:15-16). We will have an immortal uncorruptible body like our ressurected Messiah once we are resurrected on the last day. In the Beatitudes of Matthew 5, Yahshua says that the poor in spirit receive the "kingdom of heaven," while the meek "inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:3, 5; see also Psalm 37:11). Will God divide the "poor in spirit" saints from the "meek" saints, sending them to different places? If a saint is both meek and poor in spirit, will he inherit both heaven and earth? No - this apparent conundrum dissolves when we realize that Matthew uses the phrase "kingdom of heaven," whereas the other gospel writers refer to the "kingdom of God." Obviously, the "kingdom of God" does not mean that the Kingdom is located in Heaven, but that it belongs to God. In the same way, the "kingdom of heaven" simply means that the Kingdom is owned by "heaven," where God's throne is. The poor in spirit will inherit the same Kingdom that the meek will - and that Kingdom will be set up on earth. Rev 5:10 KJV - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 11:15 KJV - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Messiah; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Three times in the book of Revelation, the apostle John describes the "holy city," New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, rather than being in heaven (Revelation 3:12; 21:2, 10). New Jerusalem will be set up on the new - cleansed and purified - earth. God Himself will dwell with men - not in heaven but in New Jerusalem on earth: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. ... He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son." (Revelation 21:1-4, 7) Psa 2:6-8 KJV - Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Psa 47:1-9 KJV - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.]] O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. For the LORD most high [is] terrible; [he is] a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. For God [is] the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. The princes of the people are gathered together, [even] the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth [belong] unto God: he is greatly exalted. Jer 23:5 KJV - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Eze 37:21-28 KJV - And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. Dan 2:44-45 KJV - And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. Dan 7:17-18, 27 KJV - These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. ... And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Mic 4:1-5 KJV - But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make [them] afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken [it]. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. Zec 9:9-10 KJV - Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion [shall be] from sea [even] to sea, and from the river [even] to the ends of the earth. Zec 14:9, 16-17 KJV - And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ... And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Rev 2:26-27 KJV - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So your saying salvation is not really salvation unless you continue in your faith and produce godly fruit until the end then your truly saved, but if you fall away back into a life of disobedience and sin some time after, you where never truly saved to start with??? I will agree that there many false believers being produced in mainline denominations that teach just say this little sinners prayer and you will be saved for all eternity. When the majority of the people never intend to follow Christ and will go right back to their life of sin and disobedience thinking they are saved by saying some sinners prayer script. This is not the gospel that Jesus taught. He said go into all the world and make DISCIPLES teaching them TO OBEY ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. He said, IF you continue in my words then you are my disciples. The truth is most churches are not making disciples nor teaching them of obey our Messiah but producing shallow false professors that continue to live in complete disobedience and sin. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. - Mat 28:19-20 KJV ...IF ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; - Jhn 8:31 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1Jo 2:3-4 KJV

Hmmm??? Sounds like nonsense. Its clearly speaking of people who departed/fell away from the truth and chose to continue in a life of unrepentant sin. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2Pe 2:20-22 KJV For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. - Heb 6:4-6 KJV

No, you completely mischaracterized what I said and your scripture quotes are completely taken out of context and have nothing to do with this discussion. Go back and reread what I said and quoted. True faith has works that prove your faith. Following Christ is more than a mental acknowledgment but of life devoted to Faith and Obedience to Messiah. You would have to have a completely seared and reprobate conscience to over look the following scriptures where Messiah clearly said there are cost for following him and if any man was not willing to for go these cost he is not worthy of him. The American gospel which you seem to follow is deduced to just having mental acknowledgement of Christ but you don't actually believe you have to follow him or obey him. This is not true faith that saves. Cost of Following Messiah: Must deny ourselves and carry our cross: Then He said to [them] all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His [own] glory, and [in His] Father's, and of the holy angels. - Luk 9:23-26 NKJV And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. - Mat 10:38 KJV "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. - Jhn 12:25 NKJV Must Strive/Labor fervently to enter the kingdom: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive [labor fervently] to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: - Luk 13:23-25 KJV "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Mat 7:13-14 NKJV Must forsake sin(repentance): Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. - Isa 55:6-7 KJV Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. ... Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. - Eze 18:27-28, 30-32 KJV ...Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." - Mar 1:14-15 NKJV The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2Pe 3:9 KJV Must be born again with a new heart that is obedient to his teachings: And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. - Eze 11:19-20 KJV Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - Jhn 3:3, 5 KJV But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. - Jer 31:33 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1Jo 2:3-4 KJV

I really enjoy reading Heb 11. Great examples of true faith. It confirms what James says that faith with out works is dead. True faith has works that prove their faith as seen in Heb 11. What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - Jas 2:14, 17-22, 24-26 KJV

No, if you continue to read, it is clearly talking about someone who had came to the knowledge of truth (Saving Grace) and was sanctified and then continued to live willfully in unrepentant sin afterwards. For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? - Heb 10:26-29 KJV Peter confirms: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2Pe 2:20-22 KJV For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. - Heb 6:4-6 KJV This is obvious not referring to some one who stumbles trying to live rightly and immediately repents but is referring to someone who deliberately continues to live a sinful life and refuses to repent of their sins but find ways to justify them because they have no fear of God. Eventually their conscience becomes seared to point they can never come to a place of repentance and their fate is sealed.

You have to evaluate scripture with all of scriptures not just snippets of Paul's writings. We deceive our selves if was just follow Paul snippets but reject the rest of scriptures. Truth is established by multiple witnesses and not just the testimony of one. Faith and works are both a part of salvation and not just faith alone. You can not go around confessing your a follower of Christ and yet deny him in your actions. We are told we must strive (labor/work fervently) to enter the Kingdom of God because many will seek to enter but only a few will be saved. If we go around saying we know him yet live in disobedience to his teaching then we are liars and THE TRUTH is not in us. James Apostle and Brother of Jesus: What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - Jas 2:14, 17-24 KJV Jesus: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive [labor fervently] to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. - Luk 13:23-30 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (sin/wickedness/lawlessness). - Mat 7:21-23 KJV Apostle John: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1Jo 2:3-4 KJV Paul agrees: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. - Tit 1:16 KJV

Good, thank you for the clarification.

@Walter and Deborah Great post! How can we say we are followers of Christ yet live in disobedience to his teachings. The Apostle John summed it up best: And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - 1Jo 2:3-4 KJV They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. - Tit 1:16 KJV